To grievance or not to grievance

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by epicondylitis, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Here are the facts

    3.0 male playing in 2013 6.5 combo State Championships
    5-0 record with 3 different partners, 2 non-competitive matches

    Played in 6.5 combo as 3.0 in 2010, 2011, 2012, advancing to State Championships each year and Sectionals in 2012

    Played in mixed 6.0 in 2012, with a league record of 5-0, advanced to State

    Played in mixed 6.0 in 2013 with record of 7-2

    Played in no other leagues.

    Has 3.0M (mixed exclusive) rating, and is required to self rate to play in any other leagues.


    Opinion
    After playing against him at the State Championships, I commented to my partner that the reason we got beat was that this guy was twice as good as me. To me, he was BETTER than his 3.5 partner. So when I got home I decided to look him up. I feel that this guy is playing with a rating below his skill level and should be stopped. He is signed up for 2 early start leagues in 2014 (you guessed it, mixed only, 6.0 and 7.0). I have no doubt if unchecked, he will play 6.5 combo again in 2014, and beat up on more beginners at State.

    Since his only computer generated rating is M, he is susceptible to grievance if he plays anything else. Question is, should I file?

    On a side note, individual Sections can opt in to include tri and combo in a players NTRP. What would be the downside to making it mandatory nationwide? Right now, it is too easy to use combo and tri (and to a lesser degree mixed) as a farm league for underrated self rate players.
     
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  2. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Just let it go...

    Besides, nothing you mentioned merits grievance.
     
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  3. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    I'd spend your time just playing more tennis and having fun. Expending too much time and energy researching people and stewing about it isn't good.
     
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  4. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    Maybe I don't understand Mixed only ratings. Can people with Mixed only ratings get bumped up from playing mixed? If so, wouldn't that mean his results aren't strong enough to justify being bumped to 3.5?
     
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  5. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Yes, that is the way it is supposed to work. The records sound very good at mixed, but as we know, there is more to it than win/loss records.
     
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  6. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    Is it harder to get bumped up when only playing mixed?

    I'm curious because one of my doubles partners definite deserves to get bumped up. She only plays mixed and has a mixed only rating. Every year we assumed we would have to replace her and she never got bumped up.
     
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  7. coyote

    coyote Rookie

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    The computer has its own algorithm. I had a self rated mixed player that played exclusively mixed and got double bumped. She probably belonged 1 level up but not two.

    As to the OP, you have to have something that warrants a grievance and nothing I read would hold up.
     
    #7
  8. Frayed Mains

    Frayed Mains New User

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    It's pretty obvious when someone doesn't play anything other than mixed and combo that they are trying to avoid getting bumped.

    Personally, I don't understand the mentality of trying to keep a rating down to win, but think - if this guy gets his validation from beating up on lesser players, he is probably more miserable in victory than you should be in defeat.

    Let it go, you will never clean it up. The guy is probably just gonna go home and kick his dog anyway.
     
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  9. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    To file a grievance requires something of substance - link to a college record or junior ranking. "He's too good" is not ground for a grievance.
     
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  10. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    3.03E(1)a Any self-rated player who is playing at an NTRP
    level lower than his/her actual skill level is subject to an NTRP
    Grievance.

    Although his combo and mixed records are not counted towards his NTRP, they are considered in a grievance proceeding. When he enters any league other than mixed, he is required to self rate. I have no doubt that he realizes that his skill level is above 3.0, and should rate himself accordingly.

    How many years should he be allowed to compete in post season play without recourse? This year will be his 5th. 10? Does it matter? Your response leads me to believe that you don't think so.
     
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  11. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Not true. Any league play experience and results, combined with anecdotal evidence, is considered. Post season play is a big factor.

    Most baggers are at least smart enough to enter one mens league in order to acquire an unchallengeable C rating good for 3 years.
     
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  12. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    I don't think a team qualifying for post season play is always a good indicator. Depending on the strength of the district and also the strength of his teammates, it could be quite possible to make it to sectionals every year.
     
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  13. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Exactly. And if it's obvious to me, it should be obvious to a grievance committee.

    What is also likely, if not certain, is that he either plays much more tennis than 2 leagues a year, or he underrated himself as a "beginner" in 2010. I suspect a combination of both. Either way, continuing to rate yourself as a 3.0 is in violation of the spirit and letter of the regs, and is unfair to his opponents, as well as to the individual whose spot he potentially took on the roster.

    Those who would give a pass on this remind me somewhat of the debate about foot faults. It is a violation of the rules and gains a competitive advantage in the process. It is no different than purposely clipping line calls. What if the next time I came up against an obvious bagger, everything he hit within 3 inches of the line I called out? Would that be a greater degree of cheating?

    My opinion is not set in stone on this issue, which is why I asked the question. No one yet has given a compelling argument to the contrary. Lots of indifference, but no one has really "defended" his actions in light of my statements of both fact and opinion.
     
    #13
  14. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Agreed. On the surface it doesn't say much. However, this guy competed on a different team 3 of the 4 years, in a large area league with 10 teams. He has never played more than 3 matches in a season.

    Each fact taken separately doesn't perhaps say much. Taken together, I believe that significant conclusions can be drawn.
     
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  15. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    Now I'm getting confused. You said he never played more than 3 matches in a season, yet you posted his records in the OP of 5-0, 5-0, and 7-2. I'm no mathematician, so correct me if I'm wrong, but all of those look like more than 3 matches. What am I missing?
     
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  16. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Your math skills are beyond reproach.

    I meant in Combo league play, sorry.

    The first 5-0 you mentioned was in 2013 State.
     
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  17. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    By definition, his computer ranting says he is in a proper level. You will not get anywhere arguing about it. The computer rating is completely objective. It does not care how you feel about it.

    He is only playing mixed. That is the only rating that matters for him. You have no grievance.
     
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  18. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    This is just more of the typical sour grapes on here that someone in their league would have the gall to be better than them. Obviously, that's a direct assault on the integrity of the game itself.
     
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  19. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Not so. The M rating does not matter in any league other than mixed. He is required to self rate in any other league. If he were only playing mixed, this thread wouldn't exist.
     
    #19
  20. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Spoken like a true sandbagger. You're somewhat right, it is about someone being better. However, the gall is not in being better, but in manipulating the system in order to be better than his opponents.

    "Better", as I mean it, is orders of magnitude better. I have played against many 3.0's that are more skilled than me, and NONE of them has 5 years of (documented) experience.

    The NTRP is about matching players of similar skills. It's not hard to recognize those with dissimilar skills. Since there are a finite number of levels, I recognize the variety that will exist within a given level. It's also not hard to recognize when the system is being worked over.
     
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  21. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Or maybe some will like this one better. Played on same combo team as first subject.

    Self Rated first year 2013 as 3.0

    2013 record
    Tri 7-1
    6.5 combo 5-0
    7.5 combo 5-2
    7.0 mix 5-2
    Mens SPRING3.0 singles 7-0
    Mens fall 3.0 singles 5-1
    State Tri 4-1
    State 7.5 combo 2-1

    #1 ranked 3.0 in state
    Won largest tournament in the state 3.0 doubles
    Retired with lead in 3.0 singles finals of same tournament
    Won all 4 other singles tournaments
    Won 2 of 4 other doubles tournaments

    He has a C rating, so not subject to grievance. Not bad for first year playing organized tennis...
     
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  22. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I'm confused. If 2013 was his first year and he self-rated, and he wasn't DQ'd, he can't have a C rating yet unless I'm missing something. He will only get a C rating when 2013 year-end ratings come out in a couple weeks.
     
    #22
  23. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    You know, maybe you should file this grievance and then come back to this thread.

    'Cause personally, I see nothing wrong with what this guy is doing. He is playing at the level the computer has rated him.

    Now, if you have some proof that he is deliberately throwing games to manage his rating, or his captain is shaving games off of his score when entering them, or he played in college . . . go for it.

    If you just think he is too good, well . . . somebody has to be the single best player at their mixed exclusive rating level. I guess this guy is it.

    Seriously, I think you should chill. I have seen people with much better records than that not get DQ'd. The guy has lost some matches, and you didn't provide scores to show he is swamping the opposition.

    The best use of your time would be to work on your own game so that you can beat the guy someday. Won't that feel better than filing a doomed grievance?
     
    #23
  24. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    And, well . . . it's not PC, and I'm gonna say it, even though I started my tennis journey as a 2.5.

    :clears throat:

    If this guy is playing 6.0 mixed and 6.5 men's combo, he is playing at pretty much *the lowest possible level that exists in the U.S.*

    If someone is so pitiful that it makes them happy to beat up on the very weakest players in the U.S. and they are not bored out of their skull doing it, I can't see why anyone would get their knickers in a twist about it.
     
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  25. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    He played in the spring, so he got an ESL bump.
     
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  26. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    I play six days a week and take two lessons per week, so this discussion isn't really impacting my efforts to improve.

    If he were only playing mixed, there would technically be nothing wrong with him playing as a 3.0. However, in other leagues he is required to self rate, and is subject to grievance if he "plays with a rating below his skill level". The rules are there for a reason, and I didn't write them.
     
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  27. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I'm not a sandbagger. I've been playing 4.0 for 8 years. I self-rated at 4.0, I've never thrown a match, set, game, or even a point to manipulate my rating, and the computer keeps rating me 4.0, so I keep playing 4.0. I've even played up at 4.5 for a couple matches over the years. I don't care if I get rated up and I'll play at whatever level the computer assigns me, but I'm still 4.0, so I keep playing 4.0. That's how the NTRP system works. You play, and then the computer gives you a rating. That's what this supposed "cheater" has apparently done, too. He's been playing for 3 years, and the computer keeps rating him 3.0, so he keeps paying 3.0. Therefore, he's a 3.0 player. Period. NTRP ratings only have meaning in the context of what the USTA computer rates people. I'm sorry you can't accept that you're just not good enough.
     
    #27
  28. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    You've given your case, many have replied, few have agreed that there is a cause for grievance... but your tone is that you still feel there is just cause.

    My advice, go ahead and file a grievance. I agree with most others that even if he is sandbagging, there isn't enough to warrant a grievance. He knows the system and is working it.

    But you feel different, so go ahead and file. No big deal in filing, but be warned that the grievance has a good chance of being denied. Then what?
     
    #28
  29. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    An ESL bump is not the same as a C rating. He has a dynamic rating from which the ESL bump was determined, but he doesn't get a C rating until year-end ratings come out.

    --
    http://computerratings.blogspot.com/search/label/tennis
     
    #29
  30. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I wish there were a way to convey to you just how weak your argument is.

    If this person were a self-rated player playing his first season of combo or mixed, you might have an argument. You could say, "He is way better than a 3.0 should be and has the skills of a 4.0," and maybe a grievance committee would listen.

    Your case is considerably weaker.

    You have a person whose skill level has been determined by the USTA computer: 3.0M. He has maintained that skill level as established by that rating for three years. He has even lost matches while playing at that skill level (and you haven't yet said that he is handing out bagels in his wins).

    But hey, good luck with that. I think you should just continue working on your own game until you can beat the guy.
     
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  31. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Cindy is right, the 3.0M is calculated by the computer in the same way a 3.0C would be, just from mixed matches only. The question is, how close is a mixed-exclusive rating to what their gender-specific rating would be?

    In calculating estimated ratings for players including what their mixed exclusive rating would be, the majority of players have a gender-specific and mixed-exclusive rating that is within 0.1 or so of each other. Only a small subset of players have had mixed-exclusive rating that is significantly different, and even then not more than 0.2 to 0.3 usually. This difference is usually consistent with observations that a particular player actually players better or worse in mixed.

    So it is unlikely that the 3.0M is wildly different from what their men's rating would be. But even if mixed isn't their forte and the 3.0 is artificially low for their men's play, it is at most just one level low and they would be a 3.5 if they were to have a men's rating calculated.

    --
    http://computerratings.blogspot.com/search/label/tennis
     
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  32. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    There are some factual errors in your argument. First he has been playing for 4 years, not 3, and is now playing his fifth. He is a 3.0M (period), not a 3.0. He has only played 2 years of mixed, so the computer has rated him once (second rating due in Jan 2014), for MIXED PLAY ONLY.
     
    #32
  33. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    My bad, the 2013 fall league that he played in was his first, in October 2012, so he was C rated in Jan, 2013.
     
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  34. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    In fact, I don't think a single person has supported the idea of filing.

    The purpose of posting was more to generate a discussion concerning combo, tri and mixed as a farm league for above level players, but it hasn't really gone that way.

    My league coordinator asked the rhetorical question "how do they keep coming up with these really good lower level players?" The formula is simple. Self rate a young, athletic guy at 2.5 or 3.0, let him play a couple of years of combo and tri, followed by a couple of years of mixed, and before you know it, you have a strong 3.5 that is still rated 3.0

    Now, this is a large market area, with a larger pool of players, which is obviously an advantage. But ask yourself, how do they keep ending up on the same team?

    If you need motive, I have one. Go to the racquet club where they are turning out these championship teams year after year, and look at the championship banners prominently displayed. Now ask yourself if that is good for business.

    And for Cindy and others who seem to think I have some kind of vendetta, I promise you, I was over being beaten when I won the next day. But I still felt it warranted investigation and that it's worthy of discussion.
     
    #34
  35. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Subject #3

    Self Rated 3.0 in 2013

    First year record in 18/0ver 3.0 singles
    9-1

    108 games won, 51 games lost (22 of those to the only guy who beat him)

    Thats an average of 2.5 games/set (1.5/set if you take out the 22 losses to one guy in 2 matches)

    :???:
     
    #35
  36. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    Now there's the rub. Unless I tell my coordinator that I won't play any more men's league, by the time I am "good enough" to beat this guy, and others like him, I will be a 3.5, getting pounded at state by more of the same products of the machine.
     
    #36
  37. epicondylitis

    epicondylitis New User

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    So again I ask, can anyone make a compelling argument why ALL same gender league play should not be calculated in NTRP?

    Is it because the clubs that are benefiting from the "15 minutes of fame" pursuit of these poor misguided souls are the backbone of the USTA and they know it, so the USTA is unwilling to rock the boat?

    By the way, combo is the fastest growing segment of USTA play, icudk.
     
    #37
  38. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    If it is that important to you just copy what he does and play mixed and combo only.

    Problem solved!
     
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