To use diablo or not?

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by bugeyed, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    To use diabolo or not?

    I see a lot of people stringing that don't use the diabolo. Is it just preference or is there a reason not to use it. I have always used mine & when I was on the Babolat VS stringing team ( many years ago), I believe most or us used it. I have always felt that it is easier on the string.

    Cheers,
    kev
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
    #1
  2. darklore009

    darklore009 Professional

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    Irvin did a YouTube video on this topic. You can search it and you'll know.
     
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  3. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I believe I seen a Babolat video that said it relieves the pressure on the gripper. Can't understand that but who am i to argue. I can see how it keeps a constant angle on the string going into the gripper so you will not damage the string when pulling tension. That is why Herb added the diablo to the Wise as an after thought.
     
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  4. RJYU

    RJYU Rookie

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    Use the diabolo. The spelling is actually diabolo by the way. It does relieve a lot of pressure on the gripper, and it protects the string as well by not needing the gripper to put so much pressure on the string to keep it from slipping. The friction caused by wrapping the string around the diabolo is what lessens the force needed to be placed on the strings by the gripping plates.
     
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  5. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    There are diablos and diabolos.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabolo

    If the tension on both sides of the diablo / diabolo weren't the same the string would spin around the 'device.'
     
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  6. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Thanks for the spelling correction. I see where it gets it's name now. Duh!
    I can see how use of the diabolo will lessen the force with which the linear gripper closes on the string. Since the diabolo is helping pull the string the gripper it is not seeing as much linear force from the string & it doesn't close down as tightly.

    Cheers,
    kev
     
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  7. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    As stated by RJYU, the force is divided between the 2. Not necessarily evenly, but the gripper does see less tension.

    k
     
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  8. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I have a Gamma lockout if i adjust the tenion on the lockout to 60 lbs it locks out at 60 whether i go around the diablo or not. The diablo on Gamma is fixed it can not move only the gripper rocks to lockout. Are you really trying to tell me there is 30 lbs of tension on one end of a string and 30 lbs on the other to add up to 60lbs? I was born at night but it was not last night. LOL
     
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  9. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Don't get me wrong I think the diablo will releave stress on the string by keeping a constant angle going into the gripper but if one end of the string has 60 lbs of tension then so does the other end.
     
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  10. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    i use mine, but then again sometimes i don't.

    kinda like adult diapers.
     
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  11. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

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    I use it on my machines. I'll even double wrap the string in some circumstances to reduce the stress further.

    Regards

    Paul
     
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  12. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Imagine how much stress you could reduce if you wrapped it around the diablo 10 times. You guys aren't being serious now are you?
     
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  13. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Irvin, the way I see it, the diablo provides a bit of friction to the equation (as stated several times above), so the jaws of the gripper are not doing all of the pulling. If you wrapped the string around the diabolo 10 times, the gripper would not likely see much tension at all. Just like if I tied the string around the diabolo.
    k
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  14. RJYU

    RJYU Rookie

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    Here's a good test to do. Pull tension on some sort of poly string at 28kg or so using the diabolo, and then after releasing tension, check the area that was in the grippers. Then do the same thing without using the diabolo. With many types of strings, you will see noticeably more "flattening" of the string when the diabolo is not used.
     
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  15. RJYU

    RJYU Rookie

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    The friction caused by using the diabolo is much like the friction caused by climbing rope going through carabiners while rock climbing. This friction allows a lighter climber to easily belay a heavier climber.
     
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  16. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Here is a better test. The string in crushed by the gripper more if there is more tension on the string. Take a weight tie it to a string and measure the weight of the weight. Then wrap the string around a diablo and see if it weighs less.

    Just in case you want a preview of what you are going to see I just did that. A 10 lb weight weighs 10.63 lbs hung from a string and when I wrap the string around my diablo it weighs 10.69 lbs. I think the reason for the 0.06 lb difference is the weight was free to swing when I did not use the diablo and when I did the string touched the the bar the crank slides on and that little bit of friction caused the difference.

    You guys are too funny. Go on run you own test.
     
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  17. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    think tug-of-war...you're gripping the rope with your bare hands. in order to keep the rope from slipping you have to clamp down on the rope really hard. if you were to wrap the rope around your leading hand, the loop tightens around that leading hand meaning that you won't need to clamp down on the rope nearly as hard with your trailing hand to keep the rope from slipping. try it out and you'll see.
     
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  18. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Huge difference. Now you are comparing apples and eggs. I will agree they are both kind of round.
     
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  19. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    without the diabolo, the gripper is bearing all the tension.

    using the the diabolo, the diabolo bears the majority of the tension as the string tightens around the spool so the gripper doesn't need to clamp nearly as hard on the string to hold the string from slipping.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  20. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    You try it I know what will happen. You will end up with a broken hand if there are enough people pulling on the two ends of the rope.

    I ran another test of with the weight. Free the weight weighed 10.63 lbs and when wrapped around the diablo 10.56 lbs. This time it was 0.07 lbs less. Now if the friction of the diablo makes a difference why can't the scale detect it?
     
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  21. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    With or without the diablo the gripper holds one end. If you are pulling 60 lbs of tension the gripper holds 60 lbs of tension.

    You guys are looking at it like this. If I wrap a rope around a tree enough times there is going to be a lot of friction between the rope and the bark on the tree. If I hold one end of the rope tight enough to keep it tight the friction between the rope and the tree will allow me to hold a car back. If that car breaks the tree off though you sure don't want to be hanging on to the other end of that rope. LMAO

    Big difference
     
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  22. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Your test is not designed to test the issue we are discussing, just to prove your stance. Better to wrap the weighted string around the diabolo & measure the force on the other side of the diabolo. That is what the linear gripper is seeing.
    Unless you are saying that the diablo does not offer any resistance to the pulling force, I don't understand how it's not obvious? Oh, or you just playing with words as in the "speed stringing" charade?

    K

    Cheers,
    kev
     
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  23. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Here is a good experiment for you guys to try out. Get youself a very strong steel cable with a hook on one end. Wrap the cable around a car wheel and place the hook on the hitch of a car. Clamp the other end of the cable around your neck and tie your feet around a big tree. Tell the driver of the car to drive off and see it you can hold the car back. Come back and let me know what happens in your next life. LMAO
     
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  24. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    'bugeyed' you never responded. What causes the the linear gripper to close down on the string? Are you afraid you prove yourself wrong? Simple enough question why are you not responding? I would like to know what you think causes the linear gripper to close down on the string.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  25. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Have you been drinking, 'cause your analogies have been way off the mark! "If the tree breaks"???? Yeah, if the diabolo breaks, the gripper will feel the full tension, but that is not the case here.

    k
     
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  26. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Some, but not the full pulling tension. The diabolo is supporting some of the "weight".
     
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  27. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    :confused: a 10 lb weight will weigh 10 lbs regardless of whether a diabolo is used or not.

    :shock: the question is without the use of a diabolo, how much clamping pressure does the gripper need to apply to prevent the string from slipping through the jaws? and how much clamping pressure does the gripper need to apply to the string when a diabolo is used? your test can not possibly measure that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  28. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    after the speed stringing and now this, i think irvin has fallen off his rocker. :D
     
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  29. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    I suspect that Irvin is going to come back & point out that he is talking about his machine that has a fixed diabolo that doesn't move with the linear gripper. At least that's what I think he said a few posts back. To clarify, my question was in regards to a Babolat type diabolo that is fixed to the moving tensioner assembly.

    Cheers,
    kev

    I reread irvins previous post about the Gamma diabolo & I think he was just talking about the tension head rocking to release the latch. So, the process should be the same on that machine as a Bab. Guess I was just trying to make sense of Irvin's argument.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  30. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    i've owned the gamma 6004 as well as the wise with the diabolo that irvin uses. both are mounted to the tension head and move together as one unit as tension is being pulled. now maybe he's customized his machine, but i don't think so.
     
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  31. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    fixed your post for you. :mrgreen: :twisted:
     
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  32. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The diablo supports none of the weight. If it did the weight would weigh less.

    With or without the diablo the tension on the string is the same. The gripper does not apply a gripping for to the string. The string moved the linear gripper forward. As the gripper moves forward the ball bearing riding in a track close the gripper plates and the gripper plates apply pressure to hold the string. Te greater the resisting force applied by the string the more the string is squeezed by the gripper plates.

    I know of no stringing machine where the gripper does not move with the gripper. I have a Gamma stringer and the diablo if fixed on the tensioner and moves with it. The front section of the gripper assembly is a pivot for the gripper but any less movement of the gripper plates and the diablo is so slight it can not make a difference. Take the Wise diablo it is bolted to the gripper assembly and gripper plates inside the linear gripper move the diablo again is fixed in relation to the gripper assembly.

    I believe it was tbuggle that said earlier sometimes he used the diablo and some times he didn't. He didn't say whether he could tell the difference. I bet the cant. Take the Wise tensioner. Mine does not have a diablo. If i add a diablo will my tension be off?
     
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  33. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]

    i give up. irvin, you win.
     
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  34. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I tried to use RJYU's test to see what would happen. Used Technifibre black code at 66 lbs and there is not crushing of the string whether I use the diablo or not.
     
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  35. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Irvin, the gripper IS applying a gripping force to the string. It grips harder the higher the tension, at least until it reaches it's end of travel. As for the first statement........the diabolo certainly supports some of the pulling force! THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!

    Cheers,
    kev
     
    #35
  36. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Well thanks for responding I thought you were afraid to speak up. So if I use my lockout stringer and pull 60 lbs of tension with the diablo I should be able to put a scale inside the frame a take a reading of how much tension is being applied to the string. Correct?

    Be very careful in choosing your words I am going to trap you and prove you are wrong along with everyone else.
     
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  37. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    the tension inside the frame will be the same whether you use the diabolo or not. since you think otherwise, you clearly do not understand the purpose of the diabolo and what it does.
     
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  38. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    when you use dental floss to clean your teeth. do you wrap the floss around your fingers? or do you attempt to grip the floss as tightly as you can?

    if you wrap the floss around your finger, why do you do it?
     
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  39. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Never ever did I say the tension inside the frame would be different depending on whether I did no did not use the diablo. I am going to go on record right now and say it will be the same.
     
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  40. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I use these:

    [​IMG]
     
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  41. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    :confused:
     
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  42. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    ah! explains why you can't understand what the diabolo does.:mrgreen:
     
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  43. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    bugeyed must be choosing his words or he does not want to admit the truth but you seem to understand where I am going with this. Do you know how a lockout tension works? Or would you like me to tell you?
     
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  44. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    what's clear is that don't understand how and why the diabolo works. since the diabolo and gripper are both fixed to the tension head which triggers the lockout to lock once the tension head reaches the reference tension. the lockout doesn't care what's holding the tension (the diabolo or the gripper). think of the diabolo as hand 1 and the gripper as hand 2. both are fixed to the tension head. the lockout could care less if hand 1 or hand 2 is holding the 60#s of tension or if both are supporting the 60#s. it's going to lockout when the head reaches 60#s. as the tension head pulls, the string wrapped around the diabolo grips tighter and tighter around the spool meaning that the string gripper doesn't need to clamp as hard on the string to prevent it from slipping.
     
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  45. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    So am I. I said there was no difference. If there was a difference why could the scale detect it? You guys said there was.
     
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  46. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Wait a minute. Seems to me like everyone but me is saying the diablo takes stress off the string in the gripper I am saying it does not.

    Here is how the diablo works and what it is for. If you wrap the string around the diablo the angle of the string going into the gripper never changes. Whether there is no tension or 70 lbs of tension the angle stays the same. That means the string on the leading edge of the gripper stays in the same place instead of sliding up or down in the gripper and damaging the string. But it make a little more of a difference in a lockout stringer. When using a lockout the gripper assembly pivots on the front bottom edge of the gripper assembly. The string resists the tension from the pulling force and rocks the gripper assembly up. A catch slide over a braking pin and locks out the tensioner. if you do not wrap the string around the diablo the string will actually be above the diablo (on my machine) increasing the angle going into the gripper. But more importantly the string is pulling the gripper assembly up from a greater radius and you will have less tension because it takes less force to lock it out.

    EDIT: If the diablo removes any force from the string pulling on the gripper assembly (assume 50%) it would result in the tension in the racket being doubled because it would take two time the force to lift the gripper assembly required for lockout.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  47. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    As a matter of fact this is what i said|

    Meaning that if I want 60 lbs of tension being pulled on the string I will have to have 60 lbs of force applied to the gripper assuming i am not using some leverage.
     
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  48. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Of course the tension inside the frame will be the same. You keep making reference to the racquet side of the diabolo. We are talking about the gripper side of the diabolo. Aren't we? As far as "being afraid to speak up", I have spoken up way too many times. I don't know what game you are playing or what you intend to gain. If I don't respond, it's because I have better things to do than to keep restating the obvious & thinking you will even consider anyone else's position. BTW It's probably time for you to gracefully exit, as your arrogance is starting to show. You have made many great contributions to this forum, but lately it seems that you have chosen to be a jerk!
    Cheers,
    kev
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  49. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry i was just trying to coax you on I should not have said that. I agree the tension inside the racket will be the same (for all practical purposes.) Now what determines what that tension will be is the force applied by the string to pull the gripper assembly up to lock it. And if that force is the same on the other side of the diablo whether you use the diablo or not how can the diablo possibly have taken any stress off the string in the gripper when it has applied the same force to lift it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  50. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    My statements regarding lessened tension at the linear gripper are based on the Babolat machines & not lock out machines. On the CP machines, the gripper & diabolo relationship never changes. The "pull" is measured as the whole assembly moves. If Irvin is basing all of his argument on a lock out mechanism, that is a different issue, although his early statement that "I believe I seen a Babolat video that said it relieves the pressure on the gripper. Can't understand that but who am i to argue", would indicate that he was talking about the Babolat configuration as well.

    Cheers,
    kev
     
    #50

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