To Wuornos.

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Tennis old man, Apr 8, 2008.

  1. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    Man, there's a lot of people that love your work and passion.
    Please, be calm. We aren't all equal (like person) in this forums.
    And come back! Please, my friend.
     
    #1
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Tim, as I've been busy with my own projects on this board there's not much specifically I can say about your work but I'll try to leave some general comments.

    I have found that debating on boards can be extremely dispiriting -- at least on boards where the subject matter is more important than a mere sport like tennis. Yet even here I tend to find more negative criticism (or just plain negative stuff) from people than I do offline. So if you do it too much, or put too much stake in it, it can become dispiriting. Maybe diversifying your projects (not putting all your eggs in one basket), or taking healthy breaks from your work, are options, I don't know what would work for you personally.

    You noticed in the other thread that you were getting criticisms that canceled each other out. I'm surprised you didn't find that more encouraging. You said you're looking for a method to try and weed out or at least minimize subjectivity, and I for one think that's an attractive idea. (One theme that gets hijacked irreparably by subjective passions is Graf/Seles, and you brought a note of reason to that). It's just that in doing so you're going to get criticized from one side and then the other.

    I think with tennis or any sport, there's always going to be some subjective factor. A lot of it, I don't find entirely rational. But then sport is not entirely rational; it's about passions. Personally, speaking on the most general level and leaving ELO aside, I wouldn't try eliminate subjectivity altogether, but to find a way to take it into account. Now whether ELO can do that, is something I can't speak to in any detail. But it would be an attractive goal.

    And I don't say that merely as a grudging concession to subjectivity, just to be clear. I mean that in the end tradition and subjectivity play a concrete role. Let's say there's a non-Slam event, 7 rounds and best-of-five, that doesn't have the tradition behind it that Wimbledon does. Objectively speaking, it's just as hard to win as Wimbledon. But, it isn't, for the simple fact that at Wimbledon there's more pressure. Yes, it's we who have added the pressure, due to tradition; but the pressure is there. It's become, for all intents and purposes, a concrete, even "objective" factor to deal with if you want to win it.

    That's about as much as I can say specifically about the issues with your project. I just don't like seeing you give up on it. Take the criticisms for what they're worth objectively, take a break when you need to, and keep at it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2008
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  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    One other thing, Tim. There's nothing wrong, it itself, with ending a project. But you should bring it to a conclusion of your own choosing, and not give other people the power to end it by finding it, as you say, "not useful." Whether they find it useful -- what they make of it, ultimately -- is out of your control.

    My advice, for what it may be worth: do the project for yourself, to answer your own questions; anyone who finds your efforts meaningful will join you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2008
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  4. Wuornos

    Wuornos Professional

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    Thanks both. At the end of the day I suffer from a depressive disorder.

    It's not really the other posters faults, it's just sometimes I feel everything is just pointless and meaningless and sometimes the postings act a strigger for these feelings. I really can't help it.

    Give it a while and I'm sure I shall feel much better.

    Thanks for the kind words though. They are appreciated.

    Regards

    Tim
     
    #4
  5. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    I always read Tim's posts but don't always comment on them. In fact, there isn't much I can say because ELO is somewhat over my head.

    I would say that a little bit of room for subjectivity is a good thing, but not necessarily at the expense of the science. Bill James, for example, the baseball statistician wrote a book rating great baseball players following a rather strict formula, but all of the actual writing involved anecdotal and subjective aspects that didn't necessarily tie in with the mathematical elements (often he would write something completely non-sequiturish about a player).

    Sometimes pure math in itself is hard to talk about. It can be so final and most people just don't have the patience to sort out every nook and cranny of ELO.
     
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  6. llgc8080

    llgc8080 Rookie

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    Agree with Oldy, krosero and CyBorg.
    Come on Tim, up!!!!!! You are too value for us man!
     
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  7. llgc8080

    llgc8080 Rookie

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    #7
  8. Wuornos

    Wuornos Professional

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    #8
  9. llgc8080

    llgc8080 Rookie

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    #9

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