Toni Nadal on Rage

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by cork_screw, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Yep Vernon, precisely. I think we know the reason for that also.

    Well, Toni said after.

    Federer's never played there because there isn't even a masters there.

    Lol, Rafa was beating Costa and Moya on clay when he was 15 years old. And in straight sets at that.

     
    #51
  2. loci

    loci Rookie

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    The Nadals have to remember that the tour is a business model designed for exposure and the increase of revenue and investment bound by a legal framework that can't be changed on the whim for coaches. I'm going to cut to the chase. Does Toni Nadal have a financial stake in the ATP Tour outside of his nephew showing up at tournaments to collect appearance fees and paychecks? Does he invest his own capital into the Tour? I don't think so. Until he starts pouring all his resources into the coffers of the ATP, he should cut out the nonsense. He's not entitled to make policy for the tour. He's a coach working under the auspices of a player, for goodness sake, doesn't he realize that?
     
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  3. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    He's entitled to say what he thinks.
     
    #53
  4. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

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    Not if Nadal had to use an old racquet with gut strings.
     
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  5. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    Most of what he says though is on par with suresh's mental level, which is to say, that of an immature teenager trapped in an adult body.

    After all the success him and his pupil have had, I don't see a whole lot of respect or appreciation for the game that has given them so much.

    It seems like the short-sighted, selfish thinking of the junior league has stayed with both of them. The gamesmanship on court that Nadal displays even today goes hand in hand with Toni's self serving talk. If anything, Rafa may have grown up a little more than his bush league uncle.

    If you need any further proof that uncle Toni is the Spanish suresh, here is another statement from the news today

    I mean what kind of grown up man talks like that? If indeed Rafa has gone through a tough injury, I would expect that someone with any maturity would say " I hope no one has to go through what my nephew did". Not the crap he spewed above, however laughingly.

    http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...nd-Novak-Djokovic-will-get-injured-478826.htm
     
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  6. Razoredge

    Razoredge Banned

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    Oh. My. God.

    THIS GUY WAS BEATING THE HELL OUT OF SEVERAL PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED AS A TEENAGER.

    THIS GUY DEMOLISHED THE REST OF THE FIELD ON HIS WAY TO THE TITLE AT THE VERY FIRST FRENCH OPEN HE PLAYED AS A TEENAGER. HE DIDN'T LOSE ANOTHER UNTIL 4 YEAR LATERS AND THAT WAS JUST A FLUKE.

    HE IS THE CLAY COURT KING AND HE WOULD MAKE EVERY OTHER CLAY COURT SPECIALIST IN HISTORY LOOK LIKE A GRASS COURT SPECIALIST
     
    #56
  7. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

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    While I agree 100%, I just don't see it ever happening. In a money driven world tournament directors are never going to convert to a surface that is many times more expensive to maintain, and much more fragile. A lot of these big hardcourt venues are able to host other events like concerts and such. Any such event on a grass surface would completely ruin it.
     
    #57
  8. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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  9. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    Tennis, of course! ;)
     
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  10. Crisstti

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    No, it really isn't.

    I'd like to see the actual source for that.
     
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  11. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    You obviously aren't an appropriate audience for Toni Nadal's humour. Looks like Talk Tennis can't take a joke...
     
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  12. natalia

    natalia Semi-Pro

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    #62
  13. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Right back atcha,Natalia. :lol:
     
    #63
  14. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    A backwater? This is the continent that has produced players like Maria Bueno, Gustavo Kuerten (Brazil), Guillermo Vilas, Gabriela Sabatini, Guillermo Coria, David Nalbandian, Juan Martin Del Potro (Argentina), Marcelo Rios, Fernando Gonzalez (Chile), all GS winners or finalists, many former world #1s and holders of many other big titles. Alao many other lesser players too but well-known on the men's and women's tours.

    Backwater seems a bit harsh, don't you think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
    #64
  15. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Blah blah, my nephew can only play well on clay, blah blah blah, we need more clay tournaments so he can win more, blah blah blah.

    Did I miss something or is that basically what the article said? lol
     
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  16. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Nope, you got it. :lol:
     
    #66
  17. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Corrected for you.
     
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  18. Crisstti

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    To think of how much Rafa would win (and how much Fed would not) if there were less hard courts is hard on tards, I know. It's all you can see in this argument because of that.
     
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  19. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

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    Clay is for grinders.

    If any type of surface needed more tournaments there is not a doubt in my mind that it'd have to be GRASS and, yes, more of them BLUE CLAY .

    I particularly don't care about the Miami, so if they switched that one for a blue clay here in US would be awesome, the beginning of clay season here in US then going to Monaco....

    It's funny how the Nadal clan only want what is best for them and not for everybody, if it was for them they'd play on mug and on clay all year long.
     
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  20. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    Personally, im happy with the amount of clay, I think it's perfect.
     
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  21. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    How about the amount of hardcourts?
     
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  22. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    We need more grass.
     
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  23. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    I agree,but we also need less hardcourts as well.
     
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  24. Crisstti

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    Sure, hard courts are what is best for everybody... not.
     
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  25. Towser83

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    I'm not sure that is what he's saying. It's not like he is saying more grass, which is the only surface that there definitely is too little of, he's just talking about clay. If he's saying he would have just clay if up to him, in a way that means "well obviously if I wanted to do what was best for Rafa, then I would have all clay but that would just be a ridiculous thing, so of course I wouldn't really want that, just a fairer mix" then fair enough. But if he actually means that he really would make it all clay if given the option then he's a fool for expressing that view because it makes him look greedy and scared of challenge, which his nephew isn't.

    I think it's a mix. I mean everyone has different levels of natural talent, so some people must have a talent for playing a certain way which translates to one surface more than another one. I do think Nadal's talent fits clay the best. But I also feel Toni probably groomed him as a clay player even knowing being a good HC player was the best bet for success. I have never liked Toni and we've all heard he is super hard on Nadal. I kind of feel Toni at first didn't believe Nadal was as talented as he is and thought "you can just be a clay player" only later trying to get him to be an all courter. I think Nadal could have been moulded as an all court player from much earlier on (toni made him left handed so who knows what else he could have done) and though he may have not been totally dominant on clay, overall he might have made up for it or gone further. Nadal is better than just a clay court player so could have developed a game for HC early on I think.

    I agree there needs to be more fast HCs, instead of just slow. I wouldn't mind a bit more clay though as long as you first had a good place to put it (only place I can think of is making IW/Miami clay) and making more grass as well. If you made IW/Miami clay, then make one of them faster like Madrid, remove Madrid, move RG earlier and have 2 or 3 grass masters, maybe one after Wimbledon. Not really do-able though..

    If he said that, he's an idiot really.

    That is true. Although if there had been an equal amount of HC, Clay AND grass, I think Federer would still be doing fine. Possibly better, because he had less people able to beat him on grass than HC for a few years. But a lot of times people talk about less HC, people just think of replacing it with clay. For me, I'm not sorry to say I'm pleased there is much more HC than clay because HC is a better substitute for the vastly underused grass. Grass should be fast so the only way to somewhat compensate for so little grass is fast HC, though these days the HC is super slow too. More clay means nearly everything slow. So no more clay unless there is more grass too ;)
     
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  26. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Unless it's BLUE. :p
     
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  27. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Sorry,but no. Hardcourts play nothing like grass. Especially because hardcourts so slow these days the ball practically stops when it makes contact. It's like tennis in slow motion. Hardcourt is also harder on the body than grass is. They are absolutely nothing alike at all.
     
    #77
  28. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    speed up the existing hardcourts, maybe remove 1 HC masters for a grass court one and bring back carpet at the end of the season ...the no of claycourt tourneys are fine as they are ...

    Players today have to play mainly on fast surfaces ? Toni, either you are plain clueless or a stupid liar !
     
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  29. Towser83

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    Hardcourts are closer to grass than clay though. You can make a HC that is fast and low bouncing.

    If this isn't so, how comes so many players do well on Grass/HC and not too many on Grass/clay or Clay/HC? Most clay courters have traditionally sucked on HC and Grass, but grass players can usually play well on HC.

    I agree than HCs are slow today and shouldn't be (unless you bring back more grass) but it's still faster and lower bouncing than clay and there are a couple of fast HCs out there.
     
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  30. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Then why does a hardcourt specialist like Cvac not do better on grass?


    Maybe lower bouncing,but some of the hardcourts out there like the AO and Miami are just as slow as clay.
     
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  31. Towser83

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    Djokovic is a rare one I guess. Though it's becoming less rare for players to do well on HC/clay mainly because grass tennis has died out a lot. But looking at players like Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Edberg, Federer I feel most players suited to grass at least, find HC a better surface than Clay. If you don't like grass that much like Novak maybe it's different.

    I agree some of the HC are as slow or almost as slow as clay (funny a lot of Nadal fans deny this and say HC is nothing like clay :lol: ) but they can make them fast. Cinci is fast, the US Open is usually fairly fast but not so the last couple of years maybe. Overall are you saying HC is closer to Clay than grass?

    Actually the good thing about HC, is the bounce and speed can be altered a lot. I just wish they would actually do it so there would be a point of having so much HC
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
    #81
  32. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    You mean a teenager Nadal was 1-1 against a declining Moya on clay, both wins in straights? Your point?

    And although Costa is a (much) lesser player than guys like Muster, Brugera, or even Ferrero, you making such a fuss about one measly win (Nadal is 1-0 vs him career-wise) would be like saying that Rafa's clay-GOAT status must be asterisked because he never beat on clay a guy like Rosol, whom history showed he had no chance at all to beat whatsoever. It *does* look silly when I put it this way, doesn't it? :roll:
     
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  33. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Ouch! This must have hurt big time, no?

    Don't worry, you'll probably thank me for it when you grow up some. :)

    You mean when, as a teenager, he outlasted and tired out in the final a fully-fit man who was later found out to be doping? Are you really sure you want to go there? I sense more caps lock coming...
     
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  34. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    I was on about the tour in general which is why I mentioned the Paris the Masters and the other indoor events.

    Before you were saying that the players lobbied to get rid of carpet because they felt the surface was unsafe, but that was completely untrue. They lobbied to get rid of carpet, because many of the top modern day players wanted all the major European indoor events in the fall to be on a similar surface, and didn't want to have to adapt between indoor hard and indoor carpet.

    Bercy being held on a completely difference surface to Madrid and the YEC didn't sit well with them, so the surfaces adapted to suit the players, rather than the players adapting to handle the different surfaces. Tournaments like Basel and Moscow had no choice but to switch to hard courts as well, as there was no point of them keeping carpet when the 3 biggest events of the fall were all on the hard courts.

    And mostly slow hard courts and clay on the tour, with a tiny dose of grass is definitely not enough surfaces, considering that we used to have fast hard courts, slow hard courts, clay, grass and carpet.
     
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  35. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    There were other factors at work I agree, but still I really don't think the number of injuries suffered on the rebound ace during the Australian summer, and ankle injuries in particular, was a coincidence. Players like Roddick, Moya, Serena, Clijsters, Henin, Sabatini etc suffered injuries on the surface and complained about it at some point. Serena won the Australian Open 3 times on Rebound Ace, but was delighted to see the back of it, talking about how she still felt pain in her feet for a while after the tournament was over. Akiko Morigami suffered a particularly nasty injury on the surface in 2006.

    I remember the medical expert Andreas Bisaz saying that it was dangerous and should be scrapped. If a surface cannot handle intense heat and becomes dangerous to play under it, it has no place on the tour or at big tennis events.

    Of course but a long match on hard courts will always be worse on the body than a long match on clay courts. Even players like Davenport who were more comfortable on hard courts than the natural surfaces said that there was too much hard court tennis, and that it wasn't a coincidence that injuries were becoming more frequent and careers shorter as hard court events became more prevalent.

    Well I personally don't think that there should be any more red clay events on the calendar. The amount we have now is perfectly fine. However I wouldn't mind if some of the American hard court events switched to har-tru (many har-tru courts are faster than the hard courts used on tour nowadays as well as being softer). Also even though this will never happen either I do think that most of the indoor events should switch (or switch back) to carpet to increase variety on the tour, and ease the hard court domination slightly.

    And I agree that many of the existing hard court tournaments, especially the US Open, need to speed up their surfaces quite significantly. Slow hard courts are the worst possible surface on the tour for players' bodies, so for the sake of safety and also surface variety, a better balance between fast hard courts and slow ones is badly needed.

    The tour is mostly slow hard courts and clay nowadays which is wrong, and quite boring as well.
     
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  36. SQA333

    SQA333 Professional

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    Simple. Let's increase the number of super-fast hard court events. The rallies will inevitably be shorter, and so will the matches. Players won't have to toil as hard as they are now.

    Oh wait.... that would make Nadal even more vulnerable to losses than he is now, which would bring up another complaint from Toni.
     
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  37. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    You really don't see his point?

    A 15-16 year old(Nadal in this case) beating RG finalists or winners is an event no matter how you spin it(oh his opponent was old, they didn't have a good day, etc.). Nadal was beating RG champs at a very young age, took on and beat a more experienced claycourter than him in Coria twice in 2005(Nadal had just three 250 events to his name by this date whereas Coria was a RG finalist and clay MS winner) and won RG in his first run. Who knows what he would've done in RG2004 if he wasn't injured for that event.

    No matter how some of you try to spin this, Nadal would've been GOAT or co-GOAT of clay in basically any era. The guy has mastery of this surface.

    Heck, his only loss in RG was when he was physically hampered and he missed another RG early on due to injury. The only guys from the much lauded 90's that could maybe dent Nadal would be Muster(lefty,great stamina and grit) and Kuerten(good BH for high balls) but even then I would give Nadal victory 7-8 out of 10 times.
     
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  38. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Of course I do. (And of course Moya was expected to win both matches, I think he was still #7 or 8 when he got that loss.) ;)

    You're getting riled up for nothing, I'm not disputing this point. However, I'm disputing the fact that he would have done even better in the 90's. That is just silly.

    Even counting these two only (and I'll add Courier and Brugera to the list, and even Norman had a very good year on clay before he got injured), you're basically saying the same thing I am with your 70/80% win ratio--against these guys, Nadal would very probably not have won 7 RG's, the way he did vs a field in which Federer was the main threat on clay because there wasn't a single top claycourter left except from Nadal (the only one left, Coria, lost it just as Nadal came into his own).
     
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  39. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    How about Fed's win at Wimby against an old and declining Sampras? Fed had no rival at all on grass for years,and his only competition there turned out to be a one dimensional dirtballer that you like to crap on. What does that say for all of Fed's Wimbledon titles?
     
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  40. Crisstti

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    The surface distribution would still be much unbalanced, in favour of hard courts. But lets just ignore that, right?.

    He probably would have. Those guys would probably not have won any RG titles if Nadal had been playing then. Just like if he hadn't been around now Fed would have a few, Novak at least one and maybe someone else'd have one as well.

    And as Namelessone pointed out, Nadal was getting the best of him, though he was much less experienced.
     
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  41. Crisstti

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    Well, I'm guessing that’s what he meant… wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

    That is a good point, and it could be a mix. Being that Rafa was by 2002 saying he preferred to play on grass and carpet I doubt though that Toni groomed him much to be a clay courter. Plus, Rafa’s love of Wimbledon comes in big part from Toni.


    That sounds pretty good. Why wouldn’t it be doable?.

    I remember someone recently said how it was just about how hard courts are cheaper and you can have other events on the surface. And while that seems true, I don’t quite understand how this has happened in a sport allegedly so fond of tradition as tennis. Football is still played almost only on grass, even with the problems that happen when there are concerts held in the stadiums and with how much more expensive it must be. And there is apparently good quality artificial grass available.

    Of course he’d still be doing fine :). There should be more clay and grass, yep.
     
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  42. Towser83

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    It's hard to make big changes, a huge overhaul of the calendar would require multiple events all agree to changes which is unlikely, sadly.

    To be honest after thinking about it, I'm not sure it's a case of needing more clay- it just seems that way because so much hc, if you took some away to replace with grass, it would be fairly even. For instance clay has a 3rd of the masters (3 out of 9) but hc has the other 6. If grass had 3, then clay doesn't need anymore since it has a perfect 1 third share.

    My best idea of how a more fair calendar could work is like this(though I haven't worked out the dates)

    AO as it is, followed by a couple of HC 500s like Rotterdan and Dubai.

    Then straight to IW on clay (or another venue on clay) which would take place either the same place in the calendar or maybe a week later. IW clay would be a faster clay event than the other masters, maybe even on har-tru if enough clay courters welcome the idea.

    Then next we have some clay 500s, before MC and Rome with maybe a week between each.

    RG would be next but moved to a week or two earlier.

    After RG since Wimbledon is moving to a week or twolater, hopefully you could have a week off before 2 Grass masters and a week off afterwards, then Wimbledon.

    After Wimbledon another grass masters.

    After this a couple of weeks off before Miami (sped up to a medium/fast pace to ease into cinci better) and Cinci, then the US Open.

    After the US Open some time off then a few 500s followed by Paris indoors and the WTF. Between the USO and Paris there could be a few weeks which players could elect not to play if they needed a break. If not there could be a clay and hc swing running at the same time.This would mean no asian swing though, unless you had one with some 500s after Australia.

    Though if possible you could get 4 clay masters with one on har-tru and 4 HC masters with 1 indoors.
     
    #92
  43. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    No. Nadal was clearly outplayed by Soderling. I'm not going to argue this at length with you, but it was pretty painfully obvious that Soderling simply was on a completely different level and Nadal had 0 answers to it. Even if there was an injury, there was nothing that could have even demonstrated that Nadal was even remotely injured, and all this whole talk about him being injured at RG only surfaced AFTER he skipped Wimbledon.
     
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  44. PhrygianDominant

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    quoted for truth
     
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  45. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Of course, but you'll never get them to agree to that. As far as they're concerned, Nadal's career statistics are 583 wins/122 losses due to injury. They can't conceive he can lose a match unless he's at death door and playing on half a knee only.

    The Söderling and Rosol matches were very similar in that respect: both times, he was blown off the court without showing any sign of injury and while fighting to the very end, and both times, a couple of weeks later, he mysteriously "acquired" a retroactive knee injury explaining the loss.

    Of course, there is at least one other posible explanation (which also takes the timing and circumstances of these losses into account), but I'm not sure the VB will want to go there, so I guess the "always injured warrior fighting through endless waves of blinding pain to win his matches" is a safer place for them.
     
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  46. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Drat, just lost a long, detailed answer (don't ever touch Ctrl-W when writing a long post and have your kids stay away from these, people :(). I'll try to find the time to rewrite it later.
     
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  47. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    a religious matter

    in the mighty rusty peak injured golden bull to believe you have !

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  48. Crisstti

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    My cat erased a long post I was writing the other day when he walked on the keyboard (control z just wouldn't fix it). Maybe that's what he pressed.
     
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  49. Crisstti

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    Your post makes a lot of sense Towser :). I like it.

    Sure, he was outplayed because he was injured. I can see though why some Fed fans hate the idea.
     
    #99
  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    No he wasn't !
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012

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