Top5 hardcourt players

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by dominikk1985, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    What are your top5 just considering hardcourt?

    I know plastic HC is not around that long so cement courts count too. I can only rank newer players since I don't really know when the USO and AO changed to HC.

    how about:

    1.fed (9 HC majors, lots of masters)
    2.pete (7 HC majors)
    3.djokovic (5 HC majors, lots of semis and masters)
    4.agassi
    5.?
     
    #1
  2. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Lendl at no. 5?
     
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  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Connors, Mac,Lendl,Sampras,Federer and Agassi/Djokovic based merely on record
     
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  4. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    The winning percentage on hard are the following (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=454579):

    1. Fed
    2. Lendl
    3. Connors
    4. Djokovic
    5. Laver
    6. Mac
    7. Sampras
    8. Agassi
    9. Edberg
    10. Murray

    Things to note:

    - The data for Laver are relatively small (but big enough for his winning percentage to be relevant nonetheless).
    - Connors played for a really long time, which make his result very impressive. However Fed's data are even bigger, which is impressive too.
    - The winning percentage don't weight the importance of the tournament.

    The ranking by number of titles is the following:
    1. Fed - 52
    2. Agassi - 46
    3. Connors - 44
    4. Sampras - 36
    5. Lendl - 31

    Given those two ranking I would say:

    1. Fed (he has more of everything)
    2. Connors
    3. Lendl
    4. Sampras
    5. Agassi
    6. Djokovic
     
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  5. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Hard courts has a relatively short history as a big time surface. So judging just the last 35 years since it has come to prominence and had atleast 1 major event held on it:

    1. Federer- isnt the best ever on either fast or slow hard courts, but has the best balance of dominance between the two.

    2. Sampras- best ever on faster hard courts and very good on slower ones too.

    3. Djokovic- best ever on slower hard courts and very good on faster ones. Will overtake Federer as overall hard court GOAT by end of career most likely.

    4. Agassi- best ever along with Djokovic on slower hard courts, and excellent on faster ones. Was held back by Sampras denying him so many fast hard court titles, and not playing the Australian Open so often early in his career.

    5. Connors- actually maybe should be higher considering he would almost certainly have won 6 or 7 U.S Opens on fast hard courts and been the overall fast hard court GOAT today had the U.S Open not been on clay for 3 years.

    6. McEnroe- at his best some of the highest level of play on hard courts, but not consistent enough.

    7. Lendl- I feel like this is low but not sure who to place him above of the ones above.

    ------big gap-------

    8. Nadal- super consistent on outdoor hard courts in prime years, and has won Australian Open, U.S Open, Olympics, and numerous Masters on them.

    9. Murray- very consistently great results on hard courts in tough era.

    10. Edberg- his 2 U.S Open performances are strong enough I put him above Becker and Courier.
     
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  6. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Overall I think I'll go with Federer, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors and Lendl. There's a case for Lendl being higher. Mac in his prime loved hard courts.
    Djokovic might surpass some of the others at his current rate.
     
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  7. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Lendl top 3

    Lendl is top 3. He is clearly above Agassi and Djokovic. He was in 11 HC slam finals even though the Australian Open didn't go to hard court until lendl was nearly 28!
     
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  8. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Great post.

    Pretty much this
     
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  9. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Great post, but I think you overrate Djokovic for now. In term of achievements he is far behind Lendl, Connors, Agassi and of course Sampras and Fed. He has some good chance to rise higher, but it's not done yet.

    It is also too early to give him the edge on Agassi as the slow court goat, as Agassi missed a lot of AO.
     
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  10. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    How is he far behind. He already has the same # of slam titles on hard courts as Lendl and only 1 less than Agassi at only 25. He already has a ton of Masters titles, 2 WTFs (which is always played on an indoor hard court these days), and many additional slam finals and semis. He was far more dominant overall on hard courts than Agassi ever was apart from maybe 1995, and even then Agassi wasnt able to win the U.S Open due to Sampras, and his dominance at the Australian Open far exceeds what Lendl was able to show at either slam (going 3-5 in U.S Open finals is not dominance, sorry). Furthermore most now consider him the Australian Open GOAT, which alone elevates him to a high ranking.

    Now regarding Lendl I think a large reason I ranked him where I did is I flat out think all those others were better hard court players and prime to prime would all beat him more often than not in a head to head. Keep in mind Lendl didnt win squat on hard courts until McEnroe fell way off form, and Connors was 32, despite being top 3 for years at that point. Connors at 30 and 31 beat Lendl at the U.S Open and generally was still dominating their rivalry. As for the what ifs about the Australian Open, one could make just as many about Agassi had he played it all those years before 1995, and one could point out he almost certainly won the 1990 Australian Open only due to Edberg's injury in the final, etc...Note what Connors himself said of Lendl at the 1992 U.S Open:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgqI5yjlhLY
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2013
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  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Pancho Gonzalez won around 27 Hardcourt tournament victories, perhaps more. A lot of the surfaces he won tournaments on aren't known so he may have far more. I counted wood as a hard court by the way.

    Rod Laver has won around 30 hardcourt tournaments, perhaps a lot more. Again, it's the same as Gonzalez. I counted wood as hard court and many of the surfaces Laver won tournaments were unknown so he could have won far more. There was on Pro Major won on wood.

    Ken Rosewall won around 32 hardcourt tournaments, perhaps more. Rosewall won four Pro Majors on wood.

    Bill Tilden won probably around 12 hardcourt tournaments.

    Jimmy Connors won 45 hardcourt tournaments and 3 majors on hardcourt.
     
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  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, As far as I know there were two pro majors played on wood in Laver's and Rosewall' time: Wembley and French pro. Thus Laver has won 5 pro majors on wood and Rosewall 9.
     
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  13. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You're right. I wasn't thinking with Wembley.
     
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  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Rosewall was also elsewhere very successful: He won thrice the pro tournament at St. Louis also known as US Hardcourt Pro.
     
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  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Seems to be extremely successful against Laver at the Pro Majors on fast hardcourt. You would normally expect that the player with superior power in Laver to have the edge.
     
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  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Yes, but Laver defeated Rosewall thrice at Wembley plus won the 1965 Wembley after Gimeno had beaten Rosewall in the SFs.
     
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  17. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Any category that includes both varnished wood courts and todays cement courts is too broad. They could not be more different.
     
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  18. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Perhaps but the category is hardcourt, not cement. I figure that wood is pretty hard.
     
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  19. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    True that.



    Wasn't the World Hardcourt Championship played on clay?
     
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  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, it was, hoodjem. Also the British and Australian hardcourt events were played on clay.
     
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  21. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I would only count outdoor hard courts. Before the year 2000 almost all indoor events had carpet surfaces. If you mix it, its difficult to compare.
     
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  22. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Yes you make valid point. I still rank Lendl higher because, while he has no more major than Nole, he has at the moment five more finals appearance in hard court majors. Sides things is that he has still more total hard-court tournaments and (I'm not sure) more "master 1000 equivalent" hard-court tournaments. Of course Novak will top this number. However I doubt that Novak will top his winning percentage on hard-court, which is at the moment higher than Novak's, as winning percentage tend to decrease with long careers (which Lendl had). For the argument of the peak play you may be right, but I don't care for peak play level and don't enter into argumentation about that as I feel it to difficult to assess.

    As for Agassi, he has still one more HC major title, more HC major final, more master 1000 HC titles, more HC tournaments titles in general. His winning percentage is lower though.

    As for the AO goat titles, it is nice and all but frankly that is not the most outstanding record in tennis considering so many top players didn't care to play it for so long. AO is still the small slam in term of legacy. And, while some may consider him the AO goat, few would consider him the AO goat by a large margin: he has no more titles than Fed and Agassi.

    I don't doubt that he will rank higher at the end of his career. He will have more majors titles, maybe even at the end of the year or next years. On the other hand his winning percentage will decrease with time and age. He has only 1-2 years at the very top left (altough he can remains extremely competitive longer like Fed)

    Note: i will look at your video at home
     
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  23. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    federer

    sampras

    djokovic

    agassi

    lendl
     
    #23
  24. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    How is going 1-3 in U.S. Open finals more dominant than 3-5? Lendl has literally three times as many titles as Djokovic does at the U.S. Open.
     
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  25. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Sorry I meant to say Djokovic at the Australian Open, not the U.S Open. Djokovic is dominant at the Australian Open in a way Lendl isnt dominant at either hard court slam. On another note while 8 straight finals and 3 titles is still hugely impressive, Lendl vs his main rivals Connors, McEnroe, and Becker is 1-4 in U.S Open finals.
     
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  26. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    if we're splitting by speed :

    fast HC :

    federer
    sampras
    mac
    connors
    lendl


    slow HC:

    federer
    djokovic
    agassi
    lendl
    sampras
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
    #26
  27. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    In terms of level reached, I've never seen any player play as well as Nadal at US Open 2010. He looked the most unbeatable hard-court player I've ever seen. :p
     
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  28. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    he was very good that year but this was about the only tournament on hard were he looked really untouchable.

    Overall nadal is not a top5 hardcourt Player ever.
     
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  29. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    Ah, that makes more sense. I'll agree with that. As someone else pointed out, Lendl was kind of unlucky the Australian switched to hard when it did - he was already past his peak level of play. He might have one or two more hard court slams if he'd played his entire career with two hard court majors. But I agree Djokovic will overtake Lendl (at least as a hard court player) by the end of his career - if he hasn't already.
     
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