Trends in modern double handed backhand

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by julian, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    We see couple of trends:

    1.SHORTENING of a BACKSWING phase

    see the first part of
    http://www.tennisunleashed.net/rafae...change-part-1/
    by Jason Frausto.

    If the link above does NOT work try
    xxxhttp://www.tennisunleashed.net/rafael-nadal-the-master-of-change-part-1/
    AFTER removing xxx in the front of the link directly above.

    The article by Jason Frausto is based on an analysis of backhand of Nadal.

    The phrase "SHORTENING" can be understood in two DIFFERENT meanings:
    First,when a given player shortens his backswing compared to a previous stage of his/her career/development.
    SECOND,when a player has a SHORTER backswing compared to another player.

    2.SHORTENING of a FORWARD phase (defined as a FORWARD motion till a CONTACT).

    The forward phase lasts around 120 miliseconds or less
    It consists of two parts:
    FORWARD and DOWN movement
    FORWARD and UP movement
    (the latter component lasts less than 80 miliseconds).
    see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw

    3.variability of a FOLLOWTHROUGH
    The follow through of Djokovic is discussed in the end part
    of
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed3S-X1Xiv4




    This post is dealing mainly with flat/topspin baseline strokes.

    Returns of serve are basically different kind of animal.
    Please see post #27 of this thread for a comparison.

    RECOMMENDATIONS based on observations above:
    1.shorten a backswing stage

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA
    Bedford


    PS1 There are some differences between,say,Djokovic and Nadal
    In the case of Djokovic please see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed3S-X1Xiv4


    PS2 This post is loosely related to my previous post/link
    comparing one-single handed backhand and double handed backhand.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
    #1
  2. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I rewrote post #1 above

    10 chars
    xxxxxxxxxx
     
    #2
  3. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    I am tending to notice a lesser degree of extension with the non-dominant arm (a little bit grip dependent I know), but over all I am seeing a "break in the non-dom arm much earlier in the swing.

    I am a big fan of full extension of the non-dom arm and therefore prefer Andy's backhand to Novak's for example, as Novak breaks a touch earlier.

    Is there a particular issue you would like to discuss Julian?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #3
  4. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    I feel like there is a move towards having the racquet pointing more toward the sky in recent years. For example, I feel like Andy Murray's backhand has moved from the racquet head pointing more toward the back fence to more toward the sky. I think the same can be said for Djokovic. Del Potro always had his pointed up. Do you agree? Is this relevant?
     
    #4
  5. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Extension/flexion of wrists

    Thank you for responding from sunny England.
    I am interested in extension/flexion of wrists:
    Let say that we have a case of a right handed player
    I used to believe that there are two models:

    model A a left hand-extended/flexed
    a right hand-more or less locked

    model B a left hand extended/flexed
    a right hand extended/flexed as well
    the left hand leads,the right hand follows

    I used to teach model A described above
    Regards,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #5
  6. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Andy Murray

    Do you have a link for a video of Andy Murray demonstrating your point?
     
    #6
  7. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^ I think there has to be a degree flexion in the dominant wrist, to allow the racquet head to drop below the ball on the forward swing. Many will debate that this is the result of a "loose wrist", but I happen to think that it is a prescribed and controlled move and that the move from flexion to slight extension and radial deviation, deliberately to control the racquet face and add speed.
     
    #7
  8. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Is this relevant?

    There are couple of different conjectures.
    One of them is that making backswing shorter/more compact improves
    shortening stretch cycle
    Please see
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretch_shortening_cycle
    for an introduction to the notion of shortening stretch cycle
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #8
  9. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    #9
  10. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^ Yeah, he may be keeping the racquet a little higher overall in the later video, although there is some variability even in the early video as to the height of the racquet head on take back. I suspect Andy varies the amount of "lift" depending on the height of the incoming ball and his tactical intention with the outgoing shot - will have to ask him next time I see him!
     
    #10
  11. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Post #5

    I was hoping you will respond to post #5 above.
     
    #11
  12. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Post #7 refers to your model A from #post 5 - so i suppose I would say your Model B is more "technically correct"
     
    #12
  13. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    #13
  14. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Party line?

    Does ITF have a "party line" choosing model B over model A?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #14
  15. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Not as far as I am aware.

    My wife would be closer to model A and it drives me nuts though :D
     
    #15
  16. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Flip

    You may address a "reverse" question:
    what is a lowest point of a swing?
    Below knees?
    Close to a level of ankles?
     
    #16
  17. jaspert

    jaspert Rookie

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    Trying to understand your description of hand - extended /flexed position.
    I assume you are refering to the wrist joint here. You are describing two opposing position.
    Are you confusing wrist deviation with one of your extension/flexion description?
     
    #17
  18. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I have to go to teach-sorry

    I will be back in couple of hours snow permitting
     
    #18
  19. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Really? How could you prefer his to Novak's? :???:

    Is it the way he uses that little extra push of the racket face to get that extra extension?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMLBAKn9MU

    Imo that is why DJ's is better and more consistent, in that he is pulling thru the contact area without pushing the head and depends on timing and bringing the hands thru quicker when he wants more pace.
    Don't think that extra push or extension throws a bit of unneeded inconsistency into the Murray shot?
     
    #19
  20. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    I think maybe grip has something to do with it, that is, a continental grip with the dominant hand would result in less flexion in the takeback than more toward an eastern backhand. Have you noticed this?

    Are you referring to the straighter left arm Murray has in the takeback?
     
    #20
  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    referring to how he pushes the racket head around a bit instead of dragging it thru the contact zone more like Novak.
     
    #21
  22. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    It's that exaggerated push in the lag phase just before contact? Why does Ash like it more than you do?
     
    #22
  23. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I am referring to the wrist joint

    I am referring to the wrist joint
     
    #23
  24. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Extension of a non-dominant hand

    Greetings,

    let us try to talk for a second about extension of a non-dominant hand.
    It is possible to translate/pose a question in the following way:
    how much non-dominant hand extension does contribute to a raket head speed?

    I have couple of very simple comments on this subject which I will
    keep adding in next couple of hours.
    I understand that my posts ARE NOT easy to read but the subject is NOT simple either.

    1.I believe that extension of non-dominant hand is probably related to stretch shortening cycle of a non-dominant hand.
    There is a very large number of different articles about stretch shortening cycle/elastic energy.
    Bruce Elliot comes immediately to mind

    2.We can go one step further and say:"performance of extension of non-dominant hand is related to stretch shortening cycle
    of BICEPS on a non-dominant hand.

    3.there are two basic methods to measure the effect:

    a)using markers plus multiple cameras

    b)using EMG

    4.There are some problems with both methods-
    basically it is very difficult to separate only ONE SINGLE EFFECT,in this case say "performance of biceps of NON-DOMINANT hand before contact

    5.It would be good to concentrate on CROSS COURT shots for this conversation

    6.The issue of extension is related to an issue of performance of straight hand FOREHAND

    Regards,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
    #24
  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm referring to how Murray sometimes sort of torqs the racket head around during contact. Not sure if that is part of what Ash likes. Some coaches believe that is how you hit harder... I think you can add some pace that way but at a cost. The way Novak adds pace is better imo.
     
    #25
  26. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Post-Impact Ball Velocities

    Just to provide ballpark of Post-Impact Ball Velocities

    Double Handed Down the Line - 33.19 m/second
    Double Handed Across-Court - 32.87 m/second
    Double Handed Topspin Down The Line- 20.40 m/second
    Quoted from Reid and Elliot Sports Biomechanics Vol.1(1),47-68
     
    #26
  27. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
    #27
  28. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Frame rate of backhand return videos

    For posters who have an access to the paid site www.tennisicoach.com:

    A frame rate is 60 (frames) per second.
    All photos from each sequence were NOT publish,just a subset of 17-30 per stroke.

    It means that each subsequent stills at www.tenniscoach.com
    are "separated" by 16 miliseconds.
    It allows for some estimates how much time was spent in different phases
    of a backhand return discussed/mentioned above

    So the TIME split is:
    backswing - 80 miliseconds
    forward swing (DOWN part) 40-60 miliseconds
    forward swing (UP part) 40-60 miliseconds
    followthrough 80 miliseconds

    Another way of saying-
    backswing takes 1/3 of the time allocated for the full swing
    forwardswing takes 1/3 of the time
    followthrough takes 1/3 of the time
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
    #28
  29. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    1:1:1 ratio

    So the basic conclusion is that
    backswing to forwardswing to followthrough are TIMEWISE
    in the ratio 1:1:1

    The ratio above is close to a ratio quoted for MODERN FOREHAND.
    Please see corresponding by Johannes Landlinger to compare.

    The ratio may vary between a CROSS shot and DOWN THE LINE shot.
    The basic coaching advise is that a backswing for a DOWN THE LINE shot is LONGER comparing
    to a CROSS shot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
    #29
  30. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    A personal message

    I can send you a personal message if you would change your options in your profile
    I cannot do it right now
     
    #30
  31. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    What you are saying about crosscourt and DTL makes sense since DTL shot would be helped by taking the racquet back further to establish a better inside out path to the ball, but how are we to put this advise into practice? Are you saying that for the backhand, you need to decide whether you will hit a crosscourt or DTL shot before you bring your racquet back. Or do you mean that you should prepare as if you are hitting a crosscourt shot, but if you decide to hit a DTL shot, then you should pull your racquet back a bit further, a kind of a hitch?
     
    #31
  32. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Biomechanics of BACKSWING and FORWARD SWING

    Backswing and forward swing have three different BUT related purposes:

    a) generating kinetic energy of a racket

    b) converting POTENTIAL energy of a racket into KINETIC energy of a racket

    c) utilizing elastic enegy of different groups of muscles

    Some contributions to topspin and sidespin could be considered as well.

    TWO possible variations of DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND:
    1. "up and back" backswing

    2. "back only" backswing

    DO ADDRESS ALL THREE issues specified as a),b) and c) above.

    So it is very hard to say whether #1 is MUCH BETTER than #2.
    The point made was that one of current trends is to SHORTEN THE OVERALL time IN A SWING
    without sacrificing percentage/accuracy of shots.

    There is an argument that BACKSWING should be as simple as possible.

    Majority of analysises provided do consider ONLY a very SIMPLIFIED situations:
    a ball is fed by a ball machine
    a contact point is at a waist level) involved in the case of an INCOMING/FED ball.
    no external factors (wind/spin etc

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA Professional
    Bedford,MA,US
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    #32
  33. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    LOWEST POINT of a tip of a racket

    One of characterics of a double handed backhand is a LOWEST position
    of a tip of a racket.
    It varies between players-it could be as low as a foot ABOVE a ground.
    Couple possible questions are involved-
    are BOTH hands of a player STRAIGHT at THE LOWEST POSITION of a tip
    of a racket?
    A video of a return serve by Nadal indicates that it is the case.
    It is NOT obvious whether Nadal does it for EACH RETURN of serve.
    I am referring to my post #28 above

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA Professional
    Bedford,MA,US
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    #33
  34. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Performance requirements

    The up part of the forward swing for A DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND can be constrained by two factors:

    1.capability to obtain two SSC's:
    one at the lowest point,the second at a contactwith a ball.

    2.capability to achieve a PRESCRIBED lowest point plus a required slope

    Now we have a question of a day:
    how do we produce a motion of an arm to achive #1 and/or #2 above ?

    Are we constrained by enviroroment/bounce/etc?

    What are OBSERVABLE to see whether SSC was achieved?

    How #2 influences # of shanks?

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA
    Bedford,MA,US
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
    #34
  35. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
    #35
  36. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Power of doublehander

    Both hands have potential for a Stretch Shortening Cycles.
    Power of double hander is predicted to be higher comparing to a single hander.
    Additionally a right hand can provide an extra control around a contact time ( for a right hander)
    As I mentioned before RHS for a double hander should be arund 3-10% higher for a double hander vs single hander
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    #36
  37. mgarrett71

    mgarrett71 New User

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    The one hander is still much prettier, Remember Henin?
     
    #37
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Where does the bold part come from?

    I don't expect that prediction to hold up. I prefer to teach the 2 hander due to it being more versatile Imo in important ways, but think the SSC aspect of this is way over played and has little to do with this issue.
     
    #38
  39. Julian I am very interested in your thoughts and analysis on the locking of the wrists in the backhand?

    Locking the wrist and thus restricting ulnar deviation of the wrist. Lleyton Hewitt hits like this and Tomic.

    Thanks!
     
    #39
  40. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    PTR and access to tennisicoach.com

    Some posts in this thread do have reference to some stills of www.tenniscoach.com
    As a byside comment: US PTR members,I was told,can get a free access
    to tennisicoach.com and consuquently to stills mentioned above
     
    #40
  41. Did you see my question above?
     
    #41
  42. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    No videos

    A bit off tangent.
    I do not have good slow motion videos for Hewitt and Tomic.
    I would suggest to ask John Yandell the same question from multiple reasons.
    One of them is that he has these videos in HIS High Speed Archive.
    I understand Djokovic better than Hewitt.
    In the case of Djokovic I would refer to
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    #42
  43. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Numerical values

    For speeds please see post #26
     
    #43
  44. Yandell if you read this post I asked a question of julian a couple posts back he cant answer so I am asking you now. Id appreciate your input, thanks!

    If Ash sees this and wants to chime in, go ahead or anyone else.
     
    #44
  45. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Probably there are better ways

    You may find better/more efficient ways to reach Mr.Yandell.
    I doubt he reads this particular thread-just a hunch

    Ash can be reached easy.
    He (Ash) made some comments on a related subject.
    See post #15,#14 and #12 in this thread
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    #45
  46. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    what is the difference between.....Double Handed Down the Line - 33.19 m/second...and.....Double Handed Topspin Down The Line- 20.40 m/second?

    If one is hitting double handed..isn't he usually hitting top spin? most don't slice with the 2hander, right?:???:
     
    #46
  47. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    DT,

    Sounded like a statement in the form of a question. Or if it was a question, what was it?
     
    #47
  48. Your thoughts and analysis of the backhand techniique of players like Tomic, Hewitt, Peter Gojowjck. Locking the wrists and not allowing ulnar deviation?
     
    #48
  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    I still don't understand. Ulnar deviation is flexing the wrist to the right. I have never used that term in my analysis of the two hander.

    If you have a point maybe I can respond to that.
     
    #49
  50. In a two handed backhand such as Djokovic or Murray the left wrist undergoes ulnar deviation. Many describe this as getting below the ball and "rolling over with the wrist".

    I am sure you understand, the motion where the wrist flexes downwards and then rises before contact, it adds to spin on the ball.

    What are your thoughts and analysis of the backhands of Tomic,Hewitt, Gojowycjk who dont do this. They keep the wrists locked throughout the stroke.

    Is that clear enough?
     
    #50

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