Trends in modern double handed backhand

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by julian, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Shockingly coincidental how you share the same (incorrect) observations as Topslice did. And how you refer to Peter Gojowczyk, along with Hewitt and Tomic, of whom I think very few people have heard let alone knowing their stroke mechanics. It's a small world sometimes. Anyway, enjoy playing your D1 tennis. :)
     
    #51
  2. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    DT,

    Are you the same guy who said Tomic and Hewitt were bunting the backhand?

    Extra topspin isn't caused by ulnar deviation, it's the movement of the entire hitting arm structure--inconjunction with the steepness of the swing plane.

    You see those factor vary based on shot selection in all good backhands, Hewitt's included.

    The top players do not hit their backhands flat--it's a matter of how much spin when.
     
    #52
  3. I need more analysis?....Why do they lock the wrists? All of there backhands are very very flat.
     
    #53
  4. Great minds think alike! :)
     
    #54
  5. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    hewitt does not lower his rackethead below the hands

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJUEeFqK34M

    djokovic does
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJpmtCm70Vc
     
    #55
  6. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    A left handed forehand

    A very trivial remark.
    Properties of a double hander are related to a "choked" left handed forehand component.
    At least till a vicinity of a contact point.
    So one draws a trajectory of a tip of a racket comparing Djokovic and Hewitt.
    A yellow line in a video of Djokovic in post number 1 of this thread describes this
    trajectory.One may try to draw a similar trajectory for Hewitt to compare with.
     
    #56
  7. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Good coaches

    Good coaches spent a lot of time teaching a left handed forehand when teaching double hander.
    It is done this way in Florida,Central and Eastern Europe.
    So the conversation really boils on to the question why do you flatten forehand
    or backhand.
    Locked wrists are a separate issue-related partially to control.
    Cahill may have a contribution here as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    #57
  8. Good videos and good point.

    The ulnar deviation is primarily what generates topspin for pros.

    Why do the majority allow the wrists to flex and move in a natural capacity while others (Hewitt, Tomic) lock them, taking away the ability to hit with decent spin the ball and reducing margin for error (cant hit higher over the net) and power potential.
     
    #58
  9. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Is the last sentence a question?

    Is the last sentence a question?
     
    #59
  10. Yes, look it is not that hard to understand my point, I just wanted to get the thoughts of you and yandell on the technique of these players locking the wrists?

    The pros/cons, efficiency of the technique etc etc.?
     
    #60
  11. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Left hand limitations

    Forgetting for a moment about wrists my message is simple:
    a player is limited by capabilities of a left hand and amount of time spent
    using a left hand alone.
    The Cahill influence is another issue in the case of Hewitt.
    There are some differences for line shots vs cross court ones.
     
    #61
  12. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    Isn't it a combination of ulnar deviation and supination (followed by radial deviation and pronation)?
     
    #62
  13. Not sure you understand,

    Locking left wrist vs Allowing it to flex and allowing ulnar deviation.

    Example Djokovic, Murray, Tsonga vs Hewitt, Tomic, Gojowcyjk

    Locking makes the stroke simpler, but does not allow for any decent topspin and decreases power potential.

    I think there are technical limitations with the locked wrist stroke which makes it incorrect to teach. Young top junior Christian Garin also hits his backhand very similarily to this.
     
    #63
  14. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Locking wrists

    I understand the issue.
    I do not teach locking.
    I maybe off line till late evening today-sorry about it.
    There is a middle of the road solution -left wrist flexable,right wrist locked.
    Please try to read my posts above as well. Thank you
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    #64
  15. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    heath waters has a good video about the hand action in the 2HBH.
     
    #65
  16. JohnYandell

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    I'll just say it one more time ulnar deviation is not what creates topspin.

    The backward and then forward rotation of the hitting arms--externally then internally rotating more or less as a unit is what creates topspin, in combination with the incline of the swing.

    There is a common fallacy that DT falls into: you look at one backhand and decide that is the backhand. Then you make it into a universal statement.

    That's not the way tennis works.

    All top players vary the amount of topspin on their backhands situationally including Hewitt.

    You can see the rotations I am talking about in this example:

    http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/hewitt/
     
    #66
  17. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    John, DT is a troll. He's wasting your time.
     
    #67
  18. Ash_Smith

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    JY - where would you stand on the contention that ulnar deviation in the non-dominant hand/wrist could help a particular player get the racquet head below the ball in order to create the swing path to generate topspin?
     
    #68
  19. JohnYandell

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    TS,

    Correct you definitely are. Troll is the word.

    And obviously he is also masquerading as two (or more?) people. Probably with different ip addresses so the mods can't ban him. Although maybe they will look into that?

    But it's still a good opportunity to clarify a couple of widely misunderstand points and hopefully others will benefit.

    First how topspin is generated on the twohander. And second the common misconception that a player has "one" backhand, or forehand for that matter.

    As the clip above shows, Hewit is perfectly capable of adding the key rotations to generate more spin. There is no technical flaw. It's a tactical decision.

    This is one reason why I hate youtube video. Not enough examples to create a data base to form real conclusions. And no easy way to look frame by frame. So people often post clips that they claim demonstrate some technical point when the video may actually show the opposite.
    The result I think is sometimes worse than if you tube didn't exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    #69
  20. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Ash,

    Good question. One problem I think we have here is terms.
    As I understand ulnar deviation, the wrist is in line with itself and then flexed to the right with the palm basically in line with the forearm.

    You see Novak for example flex his wrist back on his bottom hand and then it moves to the right as described above in the forward swing. Who knows that may be helping racket speed in some way as a hinge.

    But I don't think that action promotes spin. You do see some players flex the wrist forward or down on the bottom arm, especially with the milder grip versions, which could play a part in spin when it comes back to neutral.

    As for the top hand with the wrist laid back it is very difficult to get much movement to either the left or the right, so I would tend to say no, that left to right movement of the wrist isn't a big factor.

    What I think is widely misunderstood and actually the key is that backward rotation of the arms which angles the racket shaft down. When the arms rotate forward, this is a major spin factor.

    This is a variable just like the wiper on the forehand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    #70
  21. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    I figure you're right that he's changed his IP address from whatever he had as MMI and Topslice so that he can't be immediately banned. But this is getting ridiculous; I guess we've just got to keep reporting him until he gets banned.
     
    #71
  22. JohnYandell

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    TS,

    Good idea. Then he'll have to move to another coffee shop.
     
    #72
  23. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    A long axis of a racket on a contact

    Another thread conjectures that a LONG axis of a racket is INLINED with
    bones of a forearm on a contact.
    A video/stills of Fererer at tennisicoach.com (double handed backhand)
    show that it is NOT always the case
     
    #73
  24. i guess i was wrong in assuming julian or yandell had the expertise to discuss thr technique of locking the wrists on the backhand
     
    #74
  25. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    they have probably not researched that topic and don't want to make a guess. of course they are beating around the bush a little but I prefer not commenting over speculation.
     
    #75
  26. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Maybe you should find a different forum then.
     
    #76
  27. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Ball speed AFTER a contact

    Just to provide a second set of data about LINEAR velocities of a ball after a contact for a double handed and a single handed backhand.
    The FIRST set of data was provided in post #26 above.
    I assume that BOTH Agassi and Clijsters hit DOUBLE HANDERS.
    Federer hit a single hander
    Linear velocities of a ball (km/hour) (AFTER IMPACT)



    Agassi's Backhand 126.4 km/hour
    Clijsters's Backhand 123.1 km/hour
    Federer's Backhand 136.1 km/hour

    A speed of a ball after a contact for Federer (136.1 km/hour) is higher than Agassi and Clijsters for THIS particular case.
    Please note that those are NOT "very scientific numbers" because it is possible that an INCOMING ball for Agassi
    was "different" than an INCOMING ball for Federer.

    Data are taken from
    xxxhttp://www1.arielnet.com/start/apas/studies/toptennis.pdf
    Please put the link above into a URL line on your computer AFTER removing xxx.
    If it does NOT work please try another possibility given below.

    http://www1.arielnet.com/start/apas/studies/toptennis.pdf

    The paper quoted above is large,it loads very slowly on a PC under Windows.
    Sometimes it looks like the load of the paper/link is failing but it DOES NOT.
    It loads ok on an ipad.

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    USPTA
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
    #77
  28. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    In this case lack of expertise is apparently defined as posting the wrong evidence...love that.

    But I hope everyone else got a chance to look at the Hewitt clip and see what the variables are if you want to understand how to vary and control two handed topspin.
     
    #78
  29. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Wrist and forehand

    There are two charts from, Chapter 7, Biomechanics of Tennis Strokes, by Duane Knudson and Bruce Elliot
    Please click
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=422075&page=11

    Please see post #211

    The right picture demonstrates a wrist action for a "correctly" executed forehand.
    It shows that a wrist is "laid back" back before a contact and goes to "almost neutral" after a contact.
    The second stage of a double hander is really a non-dominant hand forehand.
    So we should have a similar curve/mechanism/behavior for a NON-DOMINANT wrist for a DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
    The only "unkown" is an action of a DOMINANT wrist

    I will finish this post in the evening today
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
    #79
  30. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    The post above to be finished in the evening

    post deleted
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
    #80
  31. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Please see post #79 BELOW

    Please see post #79 ABOVE
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
    #81
  32. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    For those of you who live in the mobile world, here is the clip of Hewitt's backhand in an iphone/ipad compatible version:

    http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/hewitt/


    What it shows if you go frame by frame is the backwards and then forwards rotation of the hitting arms structure as a variable to increase topspin.
     
    #82
  33. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Gravity turn

    A separate issue is whether a footwork of Hewitt is optimal.
    A gravity turn maybe considered.
    Kudos to Systemic Anomaly for pointing this out.

    One may google the string
    "Rafael Nadal-Movement to the Max"
    to learn more about the gravity turn
    (sometimes the phrase "gravity turn" is used).
    One of results will be
    xxxwww.tennisone.com/club/lessons/jm/nadal/nadal.php‎
    (as always in my post please remove xxx before trying to link).
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
    #83
  34. Hewit will never hit near enough topspin as Djokovic or Gulbis or Juan Monaco, because he locks his left wrist.

    If you play tennis and feel what is going on, you will know that the wrist movement is what creates the most topspin, sure getting below the ball also works a little in the case of Hewitt but without the ulnar deviation he is missing out on a part of the stroke.

    It is a flawed stroke. You would not teach it. Technically not a good backhand.
     
    #84
  35. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    This guy agrees: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483828

    Too bad he got banned, you could have had some good conversations.
     
    #85
  36. Thanks, I searched around a bit for threads like this but couldnt find much. Looks like a good discussion there but havent read it in detail yet. Cheers, Alves.
     
    #86
  37. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    #87
  38. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Are you LEFT HAND DOMINATED?

    Please see
    xxxhttp://www.protennisconditioning.com/Tennis-Conditioning-Articles/TMM_-_Body_Part_Dominance_Tests.pdf
    Please delete xxx before putting into a URL line
     
    #88
  39. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Are hips first,shoulders next?

    Posts about modern double hander are continued
    Please see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JxFfvx3gnw&feature=youtu.be
    If the link above does NOT work
    please see
    xxxhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JxFfvx3gnw&feature=youtu.be
    AFTER deleting xxx in a front

    One can very well see rotation of hips from
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
    If it does NOT work please try (AFTER deleting xxx)
    xxxhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
    #89
  40. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Obvious BACKHAND question

    Which of the following characteristics of a Top Player’s topspin BACKHAND has the greatest influence on topspin production?
    Grip?
    Swing path of the racquet?
    Arm Structure during the forward swing?
    Racquet arm movement in the Impact Zone?
    Position of the racquet hand just before the forward swing?
    Position of the racquet hand at Impact?
     
    #90
  41. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Comparison with hips for a hander

    Hips for two hander were discussed above.
    Hips for a one hander discussed below
    xxxhttp://www.tennisunleashed.net/standing-alone-wawrinka-backhand/
    As always please remove xxx before putting the link above into
    the URL (line)
     
    #91
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Where is the xxx coming from?
     
    #92
  43. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I am doing very poor job explaining

    I am doing very poor job explaining.
    I have added "xxx" by myself to go around the software system imposed.
    The software installed changes sometimes some "links".
    Please try
    http://www.tennisunleashed.net/standing-alone-wawrinka-backhand/
    If it does NOT work please find the video
    at
    http://www.tennisunleashed.net
    If it does not work please use
    xxxhttp://www.tennisunleashed.net/standing-alone-wawrinka-backhand/
    Please let me know whether I can help you more.
    My E-mail address is public,if needed,to explain my answer better.
    I am travelling and I do NOT have a good editing facility here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
    #93

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