Two Handed Both Sides

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by 1st Seed, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. 1st Seed

    1st Seed Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
    #1
  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Is this a joke?
    It's a slap in the face considering GeneMayer and FrewMcMillian were top 50 singles players in the Men'sTour.
    Little Pauch has a two handed forehand, but often hit one handed backhands.
    There's vid floating around of some youngster better than those vids, on these forums.
    Lots of running.
     
    #2
  3. 1st Seed

    1st Seed Semi-Pro

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    It's all in good fun Lee.I wouldn't teach it.Just grew up playing 2 hands and never switched.And Segura was the real legend.
     
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  4. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    Having taught the two-handed forehand for over 20 years, I say that you have a good stroke and it suits you well.

    For those who denounce the two-handed forehand, let me say that you are in good company...with those in the early 1970's who denounced the two-handed backhand.

    I'm not saying the two-handed forehand will make such a statement. I know that is not going to happen. However, when you consider that today, there are more two-handed forehand players in the top 100 on the WTA than there are one-handed backhand players, that is pretty amazing! Obviously, Seles, Santoro, Bartoli, Peng, Nakamura, Sluiter, Morigami, and others who have or are playing currently with two-handed forehands would say that the stroke can be used to compete with the best in the game.

    Perhaps more telling are the number of top-ranked boys and girl junior players who use a two-handed forehand.

    Time will tell, but thanks for sharing your clip and demonstrating the shot well. I have a series of articles on TennisOne outlining the history and technical aspects of the two-handed forehand, too, should you or anyone else want to learn more about the shot.
     
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  5. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    #5
  6. tennis_pr0

    tennis_pr0 Semi-Pro

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    The number one middle states player, who is 6.0+ has a two handed forehand, the thing is nasty! Looks goofy and I would never teach it, but it sure does work for him.
     
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  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    GeneMayer was once top 50 Men's pro....much better than 6.0.
    Frew was right there, and he used sidespin and underspin, and was old.
     
    #7
  8. tennis_pr0

    tennis_pr0 Semi-Pro

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    Well Santoro had a pretty successful career... However, I think you can only go so far with this type of game, it does limit you a bit.
     
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  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I think Santoro is limited by his playing STYLE and his physical build. If he were 6'2" tall and 170lbs., he could be a top 5 player....with an aggressive mindset opposed to a mindset to mess with other player's heads.
     
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  10. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    I agree. Fabrice's style was certainly his own and would not be considered 'teachable' perhaps.

    Gene Mayer was top 10 and top 4 in the world in doubles at one time. (Different game back then, though!)

    I would love to see a top athlete, as you mentioned, Lee, with the shot, just to see what could be done with it. Considering Seles, Bartoli, and others were not all that fast nor great athletes by great-athlete standards, but they were/are able to compete well with other really great athletes, wonder what someone with wheels and other attributes could do!!

    Good points to ponder!
     
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  11. 1st Seed

    1st Seed Semi-Pro

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    Thanks to those of you who didn't bash the crap out of me.I'll post some more clips on my buddies better camera.With better views still a newbie to filming.I hit very hard and flat most of the two hander you guys mentioned Santoro,Gambil all hit loopy western heavy spin.I on the other hand hit full eastern with baseball swing type cuts at the ball delivering flat very powerful bombs.With just enough spin to drop them in at the baseline.It really is something to see when I start unloading.You gotta be early every ball with me I give you no time.The second you hit it it's back at your feet skidding of the baseline averaging 60 to 80 mph per swing.Rember most of my shots land deep within 2' of the baseline Plus the 52lbs full gut job there coming heavy..I have alot of older good players and Tennis Canada Coaches complimenting me on my game.Used to be ranked in the O.T.A.back in the day.

    I wish I had some of you guys in Toronto I know all ready some of you can knock with the big boys without even meeting you.Tough to find good talent around.Thanks again for being kind.I can Knock 1 hand just no where near as solid.Patience is the key.Most players I beat can't grind out balls and they usually end up beating themselves,My serve I'll post and again feel free to add any constructive critcism or ways to improve.I try always to stay on my front foot with my weight transferedwhen stepping in to groundies.No back foot for me.Foot work is the key for us two handers..And believe me boys my style requires alot of work.You gotta be fast or you'll get killed.My speed allows me the time two set up and the angles would make all of you guys laugh wondering how an the heck did he just do that?Again it works for me.Alot of good players say often I hit the hardest of anyone else they know.The firm grip on the stick is what I love no weak wrists plus I'm 187lbs solid big heavy cuts.If you're in Toronto come for a hit 6pm weekly at Toronto's most beauitful club,Deer eating while you hit(not kidding) AGTC.Ask for The President.lol
    Take Care.
    P.S.Thanks to The Coach Master and the senior editor @tennis one .com for the nice compliments.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2010
    #11
  12. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Please no music next time as it's nice to hear the ball as it's struck. Also, try a camera angle where we can at least see what's happening with the balls you're returning to the other side of the net.
     
    #12
  13. 1st Seed

    1st Seed Semi-Pro

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    Will do Bud Thanks for the tip.
     
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  14. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    Frew was the number 1 doubles player in the world at one time.
     
    #14
  15. tennisnj

    tennisnj Professional

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    1st Seed--best thing I can say is: Way to keep the 2 handed both sides technique going! I've been playing that way since I learned the game, & I can also play 1 handed on both sides. Managed to play 4 years @ a D1 school & although I wouldn't teach it to my students, I absolutely let them experiment with it. As a shorter player, it definately can have its disadvantages, but it's absolutely not even close to the weakest part of my game (my serve is, but being ambidextrous, I can mix it up). I have had much more Open level tournament success playing doubles this way, but I just don't play much singles because people in my circles would rather play doubles. CoachingMastery has been a terrific resource for me & other 2 handers on these boards---I consider his word the law when it comes to 2 handers!
     
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  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Talking singles.
    Frew teamed most often with BobHewitt, but also won a few doubles championships with other players
    Most people here don't care about results in doubles.
    Frew, I think, was ranked just over 50 in singles in the mid 70's.
    GeneMayer was better in singles, not quite in doubles.
     
    #16
  17. 1st Seed

    1st Seed Semi-Pro

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    TennisNj,^^a fellow two hander.Do you hit similar or more western?I'm playing the best I have in years.Some of the Vids with my blackshirt on, are with a very stable Davydenko type player.Over the last year or so he has adapted to my pace.Struggles now with balls where he has to create his own.Wish I had a better camera and Angle there.Great power hour each ball was avg:50sec.Again not moving each other around that much just trading shots.When you got an hour to hit in the Bubble 20$hr you try not to waste each others time.All of the Vids I usually take it easy and play solid and feed staright back up the middle.Come summertime time to unleash all my winters work.Going to see how I match up with some of Toronto's finest this year in the O.T.A.Finally have built a solid game Mentally and Physically.
    Take Care.
     
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  18. Kick_It

    Kick_It Semi-Pro

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    I'd say if a 2h fh works well for you - go for it.

    If you have a one handed forehand that isn't as effective - sure try a 2h, but don't discount or write off fixing your one handed forehand.

    When I was a teenager - in the day of Gene Mayer - I switched to a two handed forehand in part out of frustration with my one hander, and based upon a coaches suggestion. It kinda worked for about 9 months but ultimately I went back to my one hander - and more importantly lost out on the time to fix it.

    Now I have a decent one handed forehand after putting in the work to fix it - though I wonder how much better I would have been if I convinced myself to bit the bullet and did that work when I was younger.

    Good Luck! K_I
     
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  19. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    This is a good point that others need to consider: if you have a flawed one-handed forehand, most players who do find it very difficult to make one-handed changes since it is so close to the flawed pattern that they revert back to their old habits when they are not consciously working on the new patterns.

    Two-hands provides enough of a change that the player doesn't revert back to old habits. The proper two-handed forehand can, in fact, help a player groove a new stroke pattern into their one-handed forehand. There is no way of knowing if Kick it actually "lost time" while using the two-handed forehand for however long he did. However, it is my experience it probably helped him rediscover a better forehand rather than trying to adjust his one-handed stroke. We won't know.

    It is rare that I see a player "waste" time with the two-hander. It helps the player shorten the backswing, move their feet, make a great unit turn, and create a repeatable, reliable swing pattern. How will that hurt anyone? It won't.

    In most cases those who learn two-hands easily and effectively can hit one-handed later since the pattern is complimentary to the one-handed forehand.

    I had a number of cases where some junior players were taught flawed forehands at other clubs. (Or they simply couldn't learn to hit it right themselves...may not have been that they were specifically taught bad forehands!) In every case, these players learned a two-hander in no time, developed the key points that they needed and either stuck with the two-hander, (a couple actually went on to play Div. 2 college tennis with it...something they WOULD NEVER had been able to do with their one-handers the way they had been hitting it for several years!) or they migrated over to a better one-hander.

    I'm not promoting a two-hander over a one-hander. But from a learning perspective, I've seen where nearly all my students developed a killer forehand with control, spin and power, far faster and with far better overall mechanics than that of most pros (and even myself) teaching one-handers exclusively.

    Just a few thoughts! Good luck to all!
     
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  20. tennisnj

    tennisnj Professional

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    1st Seed, I hit similar to you, but then again, 2 handers have our own personal style which is slightly different than the next 2 hander.
     
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  21. mmaster

    mmaster Semi-Pro

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    i always wanted to learn 2h forehand. my forehand is so inconsistent that i wanted to ditch it. and after watching santoro, i was so impressed but i don't think i have the patience to slice every forehand, sometimes i want to just whack it.
     
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  22. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    Fabrice was about the only two-handed player who would slice. Yet, his forehand slice was really a left-handed backhand slice where he would let go of his dominant hand in the middle of his stroke. This is very unorthodoxed, even as two-handed forehanders go! Most two-handers hit topspin.
     
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  23. mmaster

    mmaster Semi-Pro

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    true. santoro's style is so weird his forehand is his backhand lol.
     
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  24. 1st Seed

    1st Seed Semi-Pro

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    What makes me laugh is when players will see me hit for the first time and say Damn that's the best backhand I've ever seen,but it's really my forehand.I'm a righty that puts the Right hand on top and don't change for the backhand.A Righty who plays lefty.
    What's most beneficial to me is hitting flat.Jamming most of my opponents.Hitting with more spin for 2 handers just give the other player more time to set up and start stretching me out wide.I honestly wouldn't change much about my game just wish it wasn't so physically demanding.
    ^ Some more good observations Coach,Any tips to send my way coach on things to work on besides the Fitness?I set-up quite early,Racquet back.
    Take Care.
     
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  25. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    I've had a number of players comment on people complementing their "backhand" when it is their two-handed forehand. (My 10 year old daughter, after her and I beat a dad and his 13 year old son, was told by the dad what a great backhand she had...she said, "No, that is my forehand, but thank you!)

    As to any suggestions, try to make your two-handed strokes be as fluid as possible. I do see some two-handers (on backhands as well as forehands), try to muscle or control the ball ending up having each hand fight each other almost. Sounds like you have great control and can hit spin or flat on command. Just work on getting to balls with fluid, gliding footwork and stroke patterns. Certainly conditioning is always going to be worth the effort to improve and will help your two handed strokes.

    Your hand position is similar to Gene Mayer who also was right handed but kept his right hand on top, hitting two hands on both sides as if he were a lefty. He would serve and volley with conventional right handed techniques.

    I've seen a few collegiate players who do it the same way as you do too.

    Focus on strategic elements rather than technical elements. Find patterns that you can open the court up with, (using the $10,000 shot is a great pattern...I've got an article on TennisOne.com on that strategy as well as it covered in my book Coaching Mastery if you happen to own it.)

    Good luck!!
     
    #25
  26. tennisnj

    tennisnj Professional

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    1st Seed did we learn together somewhere? I'm also a righty who hits right hand on top. After tournaments, opponents always ask me which is my forehand, which is my backhand.
     
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  27. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Well, I certainly know one very good player that uses both hands on both sides - Alex Bose. Terrific player and once Tommy Haas's roommate at IMG - still hits with Tommy when he's available.

    You know, although this guy is a top-notch player he's just a great person which I value significantly more.
     
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  28. 86golf

    86golf Semi-Pro

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    Our head pro hits double handed off both wings, but he doesn't teach it. I'm teaching double handed to my daughter and I hit one handed off both sides. How about the irony there???
     
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  29. mmaster

    mmaster Semi-Pro

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    i want to learn the two handed forehand (non-slice). can anyone show me any online guides or videos that teach the correct method? (if there is one)
     
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  30. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    I'll mention my two books since they are the only two books that teach the two-handed forehand (all three methods). They are Tennis Mastery and Coaching Mastery. Also, on TennisOne.com, I have three articles on the two-handed forehand.

    I've taught the stroke for almost 20 of the 35 years I've taught tennis.

    Both my books are available here at TennisWarehouse. (Click on Tennis Books and click on Tennis Mastery or Coaching Mastery books.)

    Hope this is helpful! If you have any questions, I can try and answer them here too.
     
    #30
  31. pug

    pug Semi-Pro

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    Dave,

    I bought your Tennis Mastery book a few months ago, and I have really been enjoying reading it, it was well worth the cost.

    Do you have any thoughts on hitting 2 hands both sides and arm problems? I recently developed TE and have had GE for a while, both in my dominant right arm. I am in physical therapy now, and will start hitting again in a week or two, and I am considering 2 hands on both sides to reduce the wear and tear on my right arm. Is this a correct assumption?

    Also, do you have any recommendations about racquets for the 2 hand on both sides?

    One of my playing partners makes fun of me for considering trying to use 2 hands on both sides, but I am open to trying new things and if it prolongs my playing time, I am all for it.

    Thanks.

    Jeff
     
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  32. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    Hi Jeff,

    Thanks for the nice comments about my book, Tennis Mastery! Hope it continues to be a good resource for you!

    Absolutely, two-hands on both sides can be a godsend for players suffering from tennis elbow and golfer's elbow. Taking the stress off the lateral and medial epicondiles is the key to getting these tendons to heal.

    I would follow the two-handed patterns I've written about in Tennis Mastery as a guideline. I would also not play any competitive matches until you have gotten somewhat comfortable with the new stroke pattern. (You will be tempted to go back to a one-hander under competitive stress.)

    As far as a racquet, look for any of the stretch models, 27.5 inches or more if you can find one. However, it isn't all the critical as you won't find too many situations that the extra length is that much of an advantage. Plus, when you go longer, you will probably have a little loss of control on your volley, serve and overhead.

    Stress footwork when working the new stroke and don't try to swing big. If you follow the advice in TM, you should have a solid two-hander in a couple weeks.

    Good luck and please keep me posted!!

    Best wishes!
     
    #32
  33. darthpwner

    darthpwner Banned

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    I've got a question about a 2 handed forehand. Is it top hand or bottom hand dominant? Also, what is the most common grip? Is it semi-western forehand bottom hand and eastern forehand top hand
     
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  34. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Your non-dominant hand is on top for the forehand. Many two-handers have an eastern backhand grip turned over:

    [​IMG]
     
    #34
  35. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    Gambill actually hits the ball very hard and flat, not loopy with heavy spin. At least that's how his balls looked when I saw him play about 4 yrs ago (and he kept hitting the ball long).
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2010
    #35
  36. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    Depends.

    You can have the bottom hand be your dominant hand in an eastern/semi-western grip and your top hand in a continental grip. This is the more common 2HFH config.

    Few others have the top hand as the dominant hand in an eastern/semiwestern grip and bottom hand in a continental.
    This is essentially a lefty 2HBH, from a right handers perspective.
     
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  37. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    This is an interesting topic. As Coaching Mastery and Urban mentioned, I do recall Gene Mayer vividly.

    As far as hitting 2 hands off both sides, the shorter reach does seems to limit you on both sides, but it does lead to some great versatility as far as shotmaking and 2 handed shots can be very hard to read, since a player can "change directions" at the very last moment. I think you need to be pretty quick to pull it off, because you have to take that extra step on both sides. I have a 2 handed backhand, but I mix in plenty of 1 handed slice backhands as well.

    Growing up, Gene Mayer really "stuck out" for 2 reasons, his two handed backhand and forehand, but also because he was using a Prince Oversize Graphite frame when you didn't see many of those on the Pro Tour. He was in the top ten for a while, and he reached #4 per Wikipedia, with 14 tour wins, and some very impressive results, including wins over a lot of great players. Making top ten around 1980 was no small feat. He's also listed as having won 15 doubles titles. His older brother Sandy also reached the top ten in men's singles.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
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  38. halalula1234

    halalula1234 Professional

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    i used to have a 2 handed forehand with a 1 h backhand.

    I loved my forehand u can take it early, on the rise and hit quite hard. But im a bit sad coach changed me and people in my club wont approve of it and they made me stay down with the low level players.

    So now i am using a normal 1 hander eastern grip, kinda not as flat,, not like my old fh. but yeh i sometimes when i'm against hard hitters i just naturally go back to the 2 hander cus then i can smack low flat ones back. with more control.
     
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  39. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    There are three variations of the two-handed forehand:

    A) Gene Mayer used to keep his dominant hand on top (closer to the head), on both sides; lowering the hand to a one-handed volley, serve or overhead.

    B) Jan Michael Gambil would switch basically hitting a backhand on each side: left handed backhand on his normal forehand side, and a normal two-handed backhand on his normal backhand side.

    C) Monica Seles and a number of other pros and most two-handers today keep the dominant hand at the bottom next to the buttcap, non-dominant hand on top.

    I like C because it simulates a conventional one-handed forehand for players who either move to a one-hander later, or when forced to stretch for a ball can let go and hit a conventional one hander.
     
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  40. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

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    I think making fun is a strong term, I just think when healthy, why wouldn't you want 1 hand on both sides lol...
     
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  41. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    Just like anything, some players play better tennis with two hands. (The two-handed backhand is the dominant stroke among pros...and, at last check, I think they were all pretty healthy!)

    Even as it isn't quite apples to apples, isn't it funny how golfers use two hands? Baseball players? Hockey players? Cricket players? (Okay, cricket is a stretch!)

    The only reason anyone would make fun of something is because: 1. they don't understand it; 2. they are shallow; (because of #1, probably!), or 3. they are predjidiced. (Again, probably because of #1!)

    As a coach and teaching professional for 35 years, I can say that the stroke not only has merit, it can be taken to the highest level of the sport.

    And this is said by a professional who indeed hits one-handed on both sides.
     
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  42. acintya

    acintya Semi-Pro

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    @ coaching mastery

    how much information has your book Tennis Mastery only on two handed forehand? Just a few pages or more?


    and to all people:

    which racquet would u suggest for 2HFH and 2HBH for a recreational player?

    Now I have two racquets: Babolat Pro AeroDrive Cortex and Head Radical Microgel OS

    which one would be better?
     
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  43. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    I have around 7 pages or so on the two-handed forehand including a little history, diversity in grips, and a very in-depth step-by-step progression and model form. I do believe it is the most in-depth study of the stroke of any book available.

    Also, check out the feature articles on TennisOne that I've done.

    Good luck!

    P.S. The stick you use is not as important as the technique you master...until you master it! Then the stick can be important. Most two-handers on both side like the longer frames. But, remember, you also have to use the same stick on the serve and volley too!
     
    #43

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