U of Memphis tennis = U of Ireland tennis??

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by PaulC, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Just watched the Conf USA match Memphis vs Rice. (rerun? men side)

    Can't help to notice almost the entire team is made up of Irish or Brits.

    Good thing: There are lots of 1HBH players who got beautiful backhands :)

    Bad thing: Uh... there goes all the scholarships to the Europeans.

    Then again, I guess this trend is all over the entire US anyway.

    -- Don't mind seeing more fiery pale creamy skin redheads on the ladies side though, I personally am tired of the Italian-wanna-be-Persian looking Jersy Shore types here :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
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  2. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    This post is all kinds of wrong.

    First of all dark skinned women are more attractive than pale skined and second are you new to college tennis? This is hardly a new trend. Lots of teams have a pipeline from a certain region of the world.
     
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  3. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Sigh... A typical problem in America nowadays, people can only use either of the 2 words "Right" or "Wrong"...

    You ever heard of the terms "preferrence" or "quantity supplied"?

    When you see those Jersy Shores type all days long in towns like NY or L.A., people like me can just get so tired of it somehow.

    Did you take Econ 101 in college?? :)

    Then again, speaking of which, I dated both a tanned surfer gal and another pale gal, I must say, the skin texture of the pale gal is much smoother, if you ask me. (body types alone are both slender, so comparable)

    -- The tanned gal's like sand-paper and aged rapidly, whereas the pale one seems to stay looking young longer, so I don't know about this "attractive" therory about over-tanned WHITE gals (don't have much experience of other gals though)

    Back to the Euro-import thing. True, It's nothing new to have one or two in a Div I team, but 4 or 5?!

    For a state college, those may be public money we're talking about here. You really don't feel bad about that at all? :)
     
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  4. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    I didn't say tanned, I said dark skinned. I agree that overly tanned white girls are not as attractive. I was referring to girls who naturally have darker skin a la the Italian/Spanish or others heritage. And no I am not a fan of the 'Jersey Shore type'. Why are you making the assumption that every darker skinned girl is a 'jersey shore' type.?
    I've never been a fan of redheads so I guess that is what turned me off about your post. Give me a pale Icelandic girl any day though.


    And no I don't feel bad about it. In terms of Memphis, good for them that they can recruit well overseas and geta good team because of it. If Memphis recruited locally they would lose out to Tennessee, Vandy and Ole Miss. Meaning they would be left with the leftovers and end up being pretty poor.
     
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  5. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Hey, there's a new angle! Why hasn't anyone discussed this before?
     
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  6. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    We're clearly talking about different "types" here - Just to clarify: I am NOT talking about gals who're naturally dark here - just to stop the argument that can lead to racism territory. :)

    The reason I use the term "Jersey Shore" is referring to their motto "GTL" (Gym Tan Laundry), they already are not pale per se, but then they'll do the extremes to further tan themselves to a point that they become Charcoal!
    -- these are the "type" that I am referring to.

    Speaking of which, I do have lots of pals with Italian heritage who are pale and are proud to stay pale - so I'd call them the Counter-Jersey-Shore types :)

    Again, I am talking about the way a state college spending tax-payer money. Whether they can recruit successfully against their conf rivals, is a different topic.

    Hmm... May be I should write a letter to NCAA to limit the amount of scholarship available to foreigners. :)
     
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  7. Wuppy

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    I'm trying to find any value at all in this thread and I can't :(
     
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  8. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    What're you doing in a college tennis thread "finding value" in the first place??

    Message board are for b.s. in general anyway :)

    Try to find value?? eTrade may be better for you.

    I am drafting a letter to NCAA, if there is ever a limit to tennis scholarship allowed for foreign players, the value for red-blooded American college players who otherwise can't get one - will be US$25k+ a year.

    Is this value big enough?

    If not, I can do college hockey, college hoop etc etc, and you do the math :)
     
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  9. Satsuma Illini

    Satsuma Illini Semi-Pro

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    I'm sure it has been brought up before, but if it is such a huge problem. we could always set a limit to the number of foreign players on a team. Japanese baseball teams have no limit but allow only 4 foreigners on an active roster. Maybe 2 or 3 to a team for college tennis. But then that probably opens up a whole new can of worms.
     
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  10. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Hey, someone start a thread about how many foreigners there are at state schools.

    Someone will insist that its a travesty that tax dollars are funding these semi pros.

    Someone else will point out with statistics that there is nearly zero tax dollars going to athletics.

    Both will call each other idiots. Then racists.

    Then the thread will be deleted by the moderator.

    These are always so fun!
     
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  11. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    And someone will point out that the NCAA has no legal authority to limit the number of foreigners on a team, which was shown in past discussions. But if some clown wants to write a letter to them, that might be a better use of his time than posting on here, so he should go ahead and do so.
     
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  12. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    I don't get why it bothers people so much. You said that they had nice one handed backhands. So the fact that they are from Ireland lessens your opinion of them? I know a lot of the players that do come over from other countries to the US end up staying in the US and living here because they like it.
     
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  13. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Good point. May be our state senators will be a better place to start, since we're talking about state money here.

    But I still find it hard to believe NCAA will have no jurisdication over this. They change their sub-provisions fast all the time if they want to. Why not for this.
     
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  14. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    You just think in terms of the quality of tennis.

    Unfortunately, college sports is also about money. And for a state college, it's about **taxpayer** money, for every scholarship goes to a foreigner, a local player lost one in a sense, got it?
     
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  15. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    I will definitely avoid from getting into this. Thanks for the reminder!
     
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  16. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Not exactly sure how Memphis or other state colleges budget their athletic programs, but unless they are funded entirely by alumni donations or match tickets etc - which is unlikely either way, they must be using taxpayer money.
     
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  17. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    No the tennis alumni built the stadium, pays the coaches salary, pays for travel expenses & pays for the scholarships.

    Former non-americans on tennis scholaraships started Sun Records, invented Memphis style BBQ & founded Fed Ex....so you see it's much better to give the scholarship to a 21 y/o Euro freshman (who couldn't hack it in the Euro pros) than to an 18 y/o from Nashville or Memphis.

    You really need to get with the program. The tennis stadiums wouldn't be so full & we wouldn't have the lucrative college tennis TV contracts, so we can watch every weekend......without the 22 y/o sophomore non-americans on the court.

    .
     
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  18. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Wrong, many state schools support their athletic dept. from their general fund.

    10 million from Cal-Berkeley's general fund helped fund their athletic dept. in a single year.
     
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  19. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Would it be fair to say that according to this logic, state schools should not give athletic scholarships to out-of-staters?

    If so, then it seems that state schools in only a few states, such as California, Florida, Texas, Georgia, the Carolinas.....and maybe a very few others......would be able to produce competitive teams.

    Hard to contemplate what this would mean for football, basketball, hockey, baseball
     
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  20. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I've never really cared much at all about foreign-born athletes playing for U.S. colleges. I still don't. It's fine with me.

    But, I was just wondering, when and why did this start? Was there a particular rule that changed. Or was it just that some visionary coach saw this as a solution to be more competitive and other schools started to follow suit? I mean, it's not like it was needed. College tennis seemed to be fine. Even if the overall level was lower, it would have been lower across the board.

    What was one of the first "good" (Top 30 maybe) teams to have a roster of at least half foreign athletes?

    when was the turning point? I'm 39 and I remember following Big 10 tennis growing up in MN. Back then Michigan was the top team and Minnesota as often second or third. I do not remember seeing as many foreign athletes in the mid or late 80s, even early 90s. But, my memory could be failing me.

    Of course there are student athletes who want to study at American universities, so it would never have surprised me that there would always be some. But, when did it become SO pervasive? And, while DI gets all the attention for this trend, isn't it just as pervasive, if not more so, in DII?

    And, while we see foreign athletes in many college sports, did the trend ever catch fire in any other sport the way it did in tennis?

    Interesting topic.
     
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  21. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    It exists in basically every sport other than football.

    As for tennis, I'd put an approximate date of 1 year post Sampras losing the #1 ranking. Ultimately, US junior tennis tanked and foreigners passed us up in overall talent.
     
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  22. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Similar to the silicon valley H1-B visa agruments (even if you may be just being sarcastic :)

    And easy Pal! We know you're joking, but please don't mess with the Fedex founder dude ~ who is an outstanding retired Marine. Semper Fi!
     
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  23. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Interesting counter-argument! Then again, we can always counter-counter-argue that at least the money are still spent mostly on US citizens.

    Hey, we are still the "United" states helping out each other, right? :)

    -- BTW, I must clarify that I'm not against "Euro imports" per se, I'm just wondering why there is no limit to the percentage of players allowed.
     
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  24. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Amen. But Wow... 10 mil.
     
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  25. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I surely hope that your grammar and logic are better in your letter to the state senators.
     
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  26. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    You're welcome to point out what's wrong with the logic.
    -- I doubt you can anyway.

    Any citizen who has concerns about how our government spendings are spent are welcome to discuss with our elected officials, so I don't see anything wrong.

    But PPle-ase... quit picking on poster's mispelling or oral-style grammar on a message board, you expect people to submit stuff here for nobel literature prize considerations??

    BTW, if our state senators pick on his/her voters gramma/spelling like you do, he/she won't be long in his/her office. :)
     
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  27. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    NCAA has jurisdiction. As Clark said, the legality of limiting foreigners is in doubt. The following has been posted up many times before, but no problem if you missed it:

    8. Does the NCAA limit the number of international student-athletes that can receive scholarships on American collegiate varsity tennis teams?

    There are no NCAA limits on international student-athletes. There could be significant, if not insurmountable, legal hurdles for the NCAA to try to limit the number of international student-athletes that can receive scholarships on American varsity collegiate tennis teams. An early attempt by the NCAA to do this in the 1970’s in track was deemed discriminatory. Several respected experts have recently advised the USTA that the situation is the same pertaining to tennis and other varsity sports today. Neither the USTA (the governing body of tennis in the U.S.) nor the ITA (the governing body of varsity college tennis) has jurisdiction to institute such a prohibition or limitation on its own. At its own discretion, however, any individual college or university could explore its options in this regard. Certainly, the USTA encourages individual coaches, colleges, and universities to actively recruit outstanding young Americans. Further, it should be noted that there have been a number of highly successful collegiate varsity teams comprised of all American players, including some that have won NCAA championships.

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
     
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  28. floridatennisdude

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    We have a democratic senate and democratic president. Good luck getting a conservative agenda like limiting foreign athletic scholarships in the near future.
     
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  29. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I think your state senators will not be in office very long if they vote to ban/limit athletic scholarships for persons from out-of-state.

    Can't prove it, but I believe fat cat donors to state college athletic programs are core political contributors as well.

    I wonder if a state senator who proposes to make State U less competitive in athletics compared to other colleges.....by limiting athletic scholarships to in-state kids....would be getting many checks from fat cat athletic department donors
     
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  30. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    No, I won't propose limiting scholarships to all out-of-state players, just non-US citizens. Period.

    Example: Memphis hoop is doing pretty well without those crazy tall Euro centers :)

    If EVERYBODY is not allowed more than 2 or 3 international players, this will actually level the play field a bit for those not-so-rich state schools who can't afford that many of these scholarships.

    I am pretty certain that there are NOT many "fat-cat donors" who care about their college tennis programs AND wants to keep international players THAT much that will get pissed off by this - Not even for Memphis, I checked :)

    Football maybe, but we got no Euro football players, Aussie kickers are good but are really not necessities :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
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  31. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    State senate. NOT U.S. Senate:
    http://www.legislature.state.tn.us/senate/members/

    (Tennesse is Republican land traditionally, so should not be a problem :)

    It's not quite a federal level issue yet, unless it is dealing with immigration issues.

    BTW, I am an independent voter and considered myself a moderate liberal or moderate conservative depends on issues.
     
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  32. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Thanks Man. Great quote.
     
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  33. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    The NCAA is the governing body. If you want to take the issue up with your state legislature in regards to your state's schools...knock your socks off. I would assume you'll get heavy push back from athletic departments, presidents, and liberal politicians. You are basically asking them to accept a competitive disadvantage mandate against the rest of the country's schools. Limiting the recruiting pool to yourself when others have an unlimited pool of candidates.

    This country loves the underdog, but I can't envision this being successful just because Johnny down the street didn't get to play tennis at State U. Frankly, if it was impacting football (maybe basketball) you'd have a better shot.
     
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  34. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    If your proposal is to limit only the number of athletic scholarships granted to foreigners, but not to out-of-staters, then your state tax argument is eviscerated.

    A scholarship for someone holding a non-US passport costs a school the same as a scholy for a person from out-of-state.

    So there would need to be a new rationale. Nationalism? Protection from foreign (tennis) competition? The future of US tennis?

    You'll need something to persuade Republican governors such as Rick Perry of Texas and Bill Haslam of Tennessee....and their respective legislatures........ to want to make the Longhorns and Volunteers/Tigers, respectively, less competitive.

    (No disrespect for Texas or Tennessee suggested or implied, these are just two of many possible hypothetical examples)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  35. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    so why exactly are you picking on Memphis, when 90% of the Universities do the same thing? Did your kid not make the team?
     
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  36. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    These are bad arguments. There are tons and tons of young kids in the USA who play basketball and football. By far the top nation in each sport. The USA is probably the 3rd biggest tennis nation right now(behind Spain and France) but there are tons of other countries who are not far behind.

    I actually feel good that so many non-Americans want to come here. They know and understand how good our college system is. I have some personal interaction with the Clemson team and the Madens often talk about how good the US college tennis system is. Meza and Wibowo aren't going back to their countries after college they will stay in the USA to work.
     
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  37. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    As for Memphis, they have Mark Finnegan on as an asst coach. He played at Memphis til 2004 and I would assume still is well connected in Ireland. Hence, their current pipeline of Irish and English talent. Being an alum, I assume he has great connectivity with the recruits out of Great Britain being able to act as an example of what his education and experience provided for him.
     
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  38. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Basketball and football are not fair comparisons for tennis. The recruiting pool for those sports is 90-99% domestic. And, those sports generate pretty much all the revenue for athletic departments.

    The schools that would be hurt the most by limiting recruiting pools domestically would be the smaller conference schools. They could not be competitive with the Pac12, ACC, SEC, etc if they had to compete directly for the top US born talent. There simply isn't enough talent to go around.

    Boosters do have more of an impact than what you are giving credit for. Any donations to non-revenue sports are like finding gold. But, no one wants to support a perennial doormat. I would foresee ADs across the country eliminating tennis all together if they were in an environment where over half (guesstimating) the recruiting talent pool was forbidden. Most would assume not allocate resources to a sport where there is little chance of fielding a competitive team. It would basically become club level and just not interesting.
     
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  39. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Maybe someone will propose a limitation on foreign coaches! After all, Finnegan's job could have gone to a fine son or daughter of Tennessee
     
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  40. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Yea, businesses love having the government limit their pool of candidates on their behalf. Lol.
     
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  41. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Is Memphis a State school, or a private university?
     
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  42. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    State.

    In fact, its name used to be Memphis State
     
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  43. andfor

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    Have not been here in days and come around and see this. Looks like this thread was designed for me to bring me out and try to embarress the program. Not gonna happen. I'm obviously a Memphis Tiger fan and one of the few if not only who posts here about their tennis teams. Total class act by both men's and women's programs, players, coaches and admin at all times. To my fellow posters and international student athlete supporters, thanks. To the poster, good luck with your time wasting letter writing campaign.

    The poster must have an underlying ax to grind. You will never get any traction with your attempt to change the system based on your arguments. Overall just a pathetic post.
     
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  44. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Easy Man.

    It's not against Memphis alone. It's not even just against the great Tennessee state.

    It's against ALL state schools that overstocked international players.

    Just as an earlier response to my post pointed out that both the USTA and ITA have already been alerted of the situation by several respected coaches, but can't do anything by themselves alone.

    -- Do they all have ax to grind against Memphis? I don't believe so :)

    I honestly do not have any ax to grind except for the care of our own American kids who badly need scholarship money in such tough economy.

    I myself had tutored a few former local walk-ons or reserves while in grad school.

    My honest opinion is that they are nearly as good as the international recruits, if not as good or better.

    They all deserve a scholarship, but didn't get one.

    (Evidences are that in a few matches, they have to sit the international kid who was in a bad streak and start the walk-ons.)

    I don't know whether there are people here who're old enough to remember a guy from USC in the 90's who spend his entire college career as a walk-on, but won serveral cruical matches for the team toward winning the championship, but never got any scholarship money?

    He later become a top 100 doubles player in ATP, coached a top 10 WTA player, and then became the head coach of a Div I team in SEC in the mid 2000's.

    He deserved a scholarship every single bit but didn't get one.

    Back to the school I am talking about, it did not stock more than 2 international players though, and I believe it still does not, and is a top 10 team year in a year out, albeit recently having hard time recruit against conference rivals.

    They made up the disdvantage with superb player-development skills by their great assistant coaches.

    It may take longer time and more efforts for them, but Isn't that better for our American kids than "buying" our way in like the pro teams in the long run?

    -- Isn't that what our colleges are supposed to do: develop our own kids?

    While you're excited for your Tigers athletic team's success. I'd urge you to calm down for a second and give your thought to our local kids who got beat out by the international recruits just for a few seconds...

    And ask yourself:

    1. Do OUR kids deserve a chance (if not a better chance)?
    2. Does national pride thump school pride?

    Peace and God bless America
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  45. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Please see my previous post.
     
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  46. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Even the H1-B visa for foreign IT workers has limits. Why not state college scholarships?

    (I'd argue it should go beyond athletic scholarships)
     
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  47. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I'm assuming you must be a fan of the Patriot League Conference. Here's a team that will be in the NCAA tournament with all Americans:

    http://www.navysports.com/sports/m-tennis/mtt/navy-m-tennis-mtt.html

    Last year, it was Army that won the Patriot League, and came to Stanford for their first round match. They got thumped by Stanford in less than 2 hours, but they were so happy to be there, and so gracious to the Stanford hosts, the umpires, the volunteers. Great group of guys. I am assuming that Navy will be the same.
     
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  48. floridatennisdude

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    1) Yes, they deserve a chance. But, they have to be good enough. If they aren't good enough they'll get beat out. That's life.
    2) No, schools operate athletics to make money...not my decision, but a fact of life

    I'm not in favor of giving anyone a competitive advantage that isn't earned. This me, me, me, me generation looking for handouts is creating a lot of lost souls that think runner up and consolation prizes are good enough. Not everyone should get a trophy.
     
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  49. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    First you said it was a misuse of state taxpayers' money for State schools to give athletic scholarships to foreigners. Then when it was pointed out that this rationale would limit scholys granted to American out-of-staters, you dropped the tax argument and started saying it's about national pride.

    But now you are saying, again, "state college scholarships" should be limited? So this means you are ok with private schools, but not state schools giving scholys to foreigners?

    This would definitely take the NCAA out of the picture, because it is unrealistic to think they would give even two seconds of thought to such an idea. You are back to petitioning Rick Perry and Bill Haslam and other governors and state legislatures. (USC would be sitting pretty under your proposal as I understand it)

    I am very happy the State college that gave my kid a tennis scholy has foreigners and has told us they will continue to try to recruit foreigners. My kid needs to compete with and against the best available competition. And I think it will be so valuable educationally and culturally for my kid to have international teammates.

    This was a selling point for my kid's acceptance of the offer from this school over other schools that had just domestic or regional players.

    Our family is American
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  50. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Not really.

    Just like state college admission, they certainly can admit out-of-state students, but international students need to pay full fee on their own, like you mention below.

    They can of course always offer scholarships to A FEW top researchers who can protentially benefits the state, but if they offer 2/3+ of their academic scholarships to foreigners like some college tennis teams, it did indeed happened before in a UC campus to a point that state legislatives gave them hard time. Ended up the UC campus in question kinda keeping an eye on this issue themselves thereafter. Although no new laws were resulted.

    -- So the argument is about the same "Fair and Reasonable use" of our state money, which is always an operable agenda here, if you have involved or attended any state legislature meetings.


    Yes and so...?


    See above. Yes, a little bit of nationalism. But mostly "Fair and resonable use of state money" will be suffice for stirring a look or talk already.


    Hey, just like the H1-B visa thing, we can argue either way to the eternity, but the bottom line, there can NOT be without a limit, and even the H1-B visa does have limits.

    "Willful violators" like Microsoft can certainly still "buy" their way in, but then will have to paid penalties to the states for tech education fundings.
     
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