U of Memphis tennis = U of Ireland tennis??

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by PaulC, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Sometimes it's perception, not real competition.

    The perception that the international kid is always better. But just like my USC example: That walk-on, actually the other walk-on too are just as good, and in fact are being competitve with the international kids during internal plays.

    But then the coaches didn't realize that walk-on was that good until after they have to sit the foreign kid, but it was already the walk-ons final year.

    Well, you may still say: hey: The foreign kid managed to win the eye-candy contest, so he deserve his scholarship anyway :)
     
    #51
  2. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    If funding foreign scholarships via state taxes (no matter how convoluted the path from taxpayer to athlete), is somehow a misuse of taxpayer funds or otherwise "illegal" based on any particular state's statutes and state constitution, then I'd have to assume that there has been and/or will be litigation.

    Seriously, in our sue-for-everything society, the issue would/will undoubtedly come up in a lawsuit if there is actually anything illegal going on, and not simply a situation of "I want American kids to have more opportunities" sentiments.
     
    #52
  3. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    See previous post. I don't need to drop the "Fair and reasonable use of state tax" argument, it happened before and actually worked in CA regarding academic scholarships. New or change of law may not be resulted, but if they can forward memos to all the ADs, it will be suffice to get them to get a hold of the situation.

    No, But if NCAA can't do anything, there's nothing we can do against a private institution. Enlighten me if you have better suggestions.



    Again, it's NOT the existence of international players that is the problem, it's the NUMBER or PERCENTAGE that is the problem here. I myself don't mind a few foreign kids in the athletic teams, but you SHOULD NOT have the 3 quarter+ of your team with international players.

    A DIGRESSION: One of my Chinese friend just commented that: Due to the proliferation of ex-Chinese ping-pong national team players flooded some euro countries, the International table tennis ferderation change their rules to NOT allowing player after the age of 21 who switch nationality to play for a country in Olympics or World Championship.

    This is to preserve the chances and resources to develop native young players.

    You can call that protectionism, nationalism, intervention of free market, fear of competiton etc etc etc.

    Bottom line: ITTF has the gut to stand up against all the legal challenges and make it work, and the native players appauded it.

    Hope somehow NCAA finally figure a way to handle this... as I do admit picking on state colleges alone is unfair, but someone have to start doing something somehwhere.

    Status quo is not an acceptable situation either.

    Even the BCS will now got a plus 1 playoff , so any system can be treaked if the NCAA is determined enough to fix the status quo.
    (OK, although NCAA is not involved in BCS, you get the point)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
    #53
  4. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    It would be patronizing and condescending for me to claim I am enlightening anyone on the Board, especially sensing a hint of false modesty in the invitation.

    I just guess "national pride" is a relative thing. Some derive national pride from state colleges and universities having a greater proportion of American tennis players.

    Others derive national pride from being a citizen of a country that does not discriminate based on nationality and offers opportunity based on merit.

    To each his own.
     
    #54
  5. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

    Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.
     
    #55
  6. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    This forum needs a "LIKE" button for posts like this one^^ :)
     
    #56
  7. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Unfortunately, legality is the exact challenge that NCAA is fearing it'll get into discrimination lawsuits it faced in the 70's against those track teams again. :(

    So I guess the only thing that can be done at this point is stirring such "sentiment" from the legislative members, and see if the ADs get some memos and exercise some self-constraint :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
    #57
  8. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Thank you for agreeing to disagree in a civil manner, unlike our political parties :)

    You did not speak to a brick wall, I do hear you clear and loud regarding fair competition concerns, and per responded by my personal experience.

    Big Kudos back to you man!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  9. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Hehehehe!

    If nothing else, I hope this can actually set an example of "how to agree to disgree" in a civil manner.

    Think.... John Adams and Thomas Jefferson :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  10. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Yeah... It goes quite a bit to the national pride side.

    But then I ask myself: if every college, whether state or private, will have enough money AND allowed to offer UNLIMITED scholarships to both local and international players.

    Would I be even talking about this with you folks?

    Probably not.

    So I would say: for me, it's still a *Resource Allocation* issue more than a national pride one, in a significantly Limited Resource situation, given they only got 4.5 each school nowadays.

    Also, you ALREADY enlightened me by providing the ITF info already. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  11. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Who is the benchwarmer from USC that then made the ATP top 100 in doubles?

    Look I'm not going to get into what's been discussed ad nauseam. The basic problem in college tennis is that there is actually more tennis scholarships and non-scholarship (see D III) opportunities across all levels of play than American tennis players willing to get them. Combine that with many accomplished American junior players having a pre-dispossession to attend the biggest and best schools and the problem snowballs.

    Schools like Memphis, Middle Tenn, TN Tech, Austin Peay, UT Martin, UT Chatt and East Tenn. have a very hard time getting 3 and 4 star players interested in playing tennis there, let alone getting the prized 5 star and Blue Chips that in the area are sucked up by traditional powerhouses UT Knox, Vandy, Kentucky, Arkansas and Alabama.

    There are so many places to play college tennis, on scholarship. Have you seen and read this? http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf And those are just DI stats. Don't forget scholarship money is available at the DII, NAIA and JUCO levels and Americans can go there to play tennis as well.

    No American is getting left out of college tennis. Getting left out at their singular school of choice (insert BCS school name here) or playing at a school over their head? Yes that's happening. However, don't blame the internationals for those who choose to limit their college choice options, poor decision making on where they go to school and try to play tennis or just plane not being good enough at where they think they are entitled to play.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  12. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Such a low blow, make that 2 in 6 battle

    Let me clarify my stance on foreign players. (for the 100th time) I do not hate foreign players, they are some of the best kids in college.

    Teams that field 50% to 100% (yes there are teams that have 100%) foreigners, I have a problem with.
    I am for growing the game in America, but when American kids are denied spots by a foreigner, that means that American kids will probably have their kid not play tennis, but some other sports, thus killing the sport.

    That is the one and only reason I'm for LIMITING foreign players.
     
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  13. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I don't get this logic.

    If i don't want to give a guy from Ireland a scholarship....then that means i don't like him? Since when does 1+1 = 3.

    My next door neighbor has a smart kid.....smarter than my kid. But I'll pay for my kid's college education.....probably won't give a dime to the nice, smart next door neighbor's kid for her education.

    I have no problem with some Irish guy or girl moving to the US & staying here "because they like it". The more the merrier. What's that.....?.....I'm expected to pay for the move & his room & board.....& i'm expected to LIKE it? (or i'm a xenophobe?)
     
    #63
  14. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    This is one of my favorite so called problems with internationals playing college tennis, that "American kids are denied spots by a foreigner". But as many years as I've debated this phenomena I have never seen one single solitary example. Not one.

    Read em and weep http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
     
    #64
  15. rodrigoamaral

    rodrigoamaral Hall of Fame

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    There a lot of teams out there that have a high% of players from a particular country.. not good IMO
     
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  16. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    & Basketball & Baseball.

    The college sports that don't make any money are the ones that are seeing the rise in non-american atheletes.
     
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  17. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I also wonder why there is no limit.
     
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  18. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    You my friend are living in a bubble.
     
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  19. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    this is patently false.
     
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  20. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Fat cat donors care about 300 lb. offensive guards & defensive backs who can do a 4.4 40. If a State U's men's tennis team was dumped (for any one of a 1/2 dozen reasons), not too many folks would care (especially the fat cat donors).
     
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  21. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    In this world I have facts on my side. You my friend live in your own little world of conjecture which your are trying to pass of as fact.
     
    #71
  22. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Stop being so logical.....it upsets the posters who make a living getting 21 y/o freshmen Euro's a tennis scholarship.
     
    #72
  23. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    You can make a blanketed statement that, "none, not even one American kid was denied a spot on a college team because of a foreign player"?

    What facts do you have to support that statement?
     
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  24. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    They want to come here because their country's universities don't have tennis teams or tennis scholarships. They come here because unlike US kids......they can take a year off & play & compete & then come play college tennis in the US as a 20-21 y/o freshman.
     
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  25. andfor

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    Don't fall for this garbage. Read NCAA Bylaw #14.2.3.2. also ensures that tennis student-athletes must begin full time collegiate enrollment before their twentieth birthday.

    Check out these fine internationals on the Uof M Basketball team.
    http://www.gotigersgo.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/garcia_angel00.html
    http://www.gotigersgo.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/tsafack_hippolyte00.html

    It's getting good now.
     
    #75
  26. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    If they do they lose a year of elegibility. American kids can do the same thing.
     
    #76
  27. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    are facts just optional to you?
     
    #77
  28. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    No you are saying "American kids are denied spots by a forigner". Those are your words. Name a kid who was denied a roster spot by a foreigner.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
    #78
  29. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Axe to grind? Pathetic?

    The OP merely sees something that is broke & wonders why no one bothers to fix it. No axe & certainly not pathetic.
     
    #79
  30. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Sounds logical.
     
    #80
  31. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Maybe I was wrong about the axe. However the rest of what's being posted here by those against internationals is full of misinformation. Pathetic, yes go back and read how he framed up his post.

    American tennis is what needs to be fixed, as in we need more and better juniors prepared and wanting to play college tennis.

    I'm not for dumbing down the game because someone pratices more and has more talent than my kid be they from or not from this country.

    You read this? http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
    #81
  32. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Jeez dude.....no competive tennis player over the age of 10 receives a trophy. (unless it's a gold ball). How long has it been since you've been around Junior tennis?
     
    #82
  33. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Agree with every word of this post.
     
    #83
  34. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Patently?

    Please provide proof that any sport besides Football, Basketball or Baseball make money.
     
    #84
  35. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Baseball does not make money. In fact at Clemson it loses the most money on campus.
     
    #85
  36. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Prove me wrong tiger.

    The Longhorn's non-american freshman & sophomore are older than their american juniors & seniors.
     
    #86
  37. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    It's a common fallacy that football and basketball programs make money. In actuality, many schools lose money on those sports.
     
    #87
  38. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Post it & i'll read it.

    When does the bylaw go into effect?

    This year's crop of freshmen must not have been affected (lots of freshmen past 20).....so calling my post "garbage" as opposed to just disagreeing with it & offering facts....has got to make readers wonder why you protest so provocatively.
     
    #88
  39. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Are you arguing with me or against me?

    You were the one that said that college sports was about making money.
     
    #89
  40. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    No I didn't. I said you were wrong by saying that non-Americans were the reason that the lesser sports are losing money.
     
    #90
  41. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    It seems you should start looking to move to some uninhabited island because every country on Earth including US of A discriminate based on nationality. Here is a link to a random job search http://bit.ly/IClGM3. Just 1663 positions listing US Citizenship/GC as a requirement.
    And here is the link to Kalamazoo:
    http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=107531
    What does it say:
    This event is restricted to the following Jr. players: U.S. Citizens; Permanent Resident Aliens; Diplomats, Refugees/Asylees; CTA and Canadian Residents of BC. Refer to USTA Regulation III.A.2a.

    So USTA can discriminate based on Citizenship but NCAA cannot?
    Of course they can, they run college sport and can set up rules the way they want. Have you heard about lawsuits against USTA regarding Citizenship rules? I have not.
     
    #91
  42. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    http://www.itatennis.com/Assets/ita_assets/pdf/NCAA+Update+Dec+07.pdf This was printed in 2007. You might want to take time to read and understand the rules before you try to debate them.

    It's been explained over and over that if you start college at age 20 or 21 you likely do not have 4 full years of eligibility left to play DI tennis. Athletically this makes you not a freshman.
     
    #92
  43. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Yaaaawn.

    Yes there are laws relating to national security and safety that give preferences to citizens over non-citizens. Good one.

    NCAA believes a limitation on scholarships to non-US passport holders would violate US anti-discrimination laws. You've seen the link.

    Yes, NCAA could try to set up the rules the way they want. Or try to get the relevant laws changed.

    But pols like Rick Perry and Bill Haslam............not to mention the Democratic governors/legislators........do not agree with you.

    In fact, what faction of the sports/political world........besides a few tennis parents...........does agree with you? Not a challenge, a sincere question.
     
    #93
  44. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Your argument a poor one. Your tennis example is a one off national championship. Start a lawsuit with your premise and let us know how far you get Clarence.
     
    #94
  45. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    I can give you my sincere answer. I really do not care about sports/political world. The closest college to my house is a private D1 school. It is pretty expensive mid-level school playing in a weaker conference. Their top girls are foreigners, the bottom are local 2-3 stars. I do not think that these girls could attend this school if not for tennis scholarship (assumption based on their zip codes). I know how they play - they are not very good - but I am happy for them. Their #1 had WTA ranking, my daughter hit with her and said that she was amazing at the net and a very nice girl. So their coach somehow maintains a reasonable balance and I think it is a right thing to do. He could probably import more foreign players - supposedly he is a very good recruiter.
     
    #95
  46. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    That's a cool story. No prob with that.

    You say you do not care about the sports/political world. That's cool. Your stated frame of reference is a private D1 school closest to your house. That's fine too. If that sounds condescending, it is not meant that way. I really mean it.

    I respect your frame of reference. And I am sure you can respect the frame of reference of posters who do care about.....and are addressing themselves to .......the larger sports/political world.

    I can empathize with the local disappointment of a player who did not get a scholy that ultimately went to an out-of-stater/foreigner. In the larger sports/political world, some other posters are saying that's the way the competitive global world now works.

    I can hold those two thoughts in my head at the same time and I expect lots of other people can too
     
    #96
  47. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ...............................
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  48. andfor

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    Far and away the exception not the norm. This has been discussed.
     
    #98
  49. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    What is one off here? These rules apply to every junior tournament that awards National ranking points - probably over 1500 tourneys per year. The majority of them are Sectionals/Designated that also have geographic limitations. We have foreign nationals residing in our section and they cannot play Designated tournaments. I thought you know the rules but I guess you do not as you do not have a tennis playing junior.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
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  50. JLyon

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    So you keep making ASSumptions. He does have a high ranked junior, but you still refuse to let facts get in your way.
    His point is stop bagging on the international players who will go almost anywhere while many "spoil-brat" Americans will not go to the smaller schools to play where a coach would love to have them. Even at Memphis which is now Top 50, few 4*-5* players will even look at them, colleges do not hire coaches to just bring in players just to field a team. They get paid to win and their job depends on Wins not accommodating some entitled child looking for a full ride while not working and not being on par with other players who do not feel entitled but grateful for a chance to keep playing.
     

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