U of Memphis tennis = U of Ireland tennis??

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by PaulC, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    What's Phil's last name? Dent?

    You bring your buddy Whitesell to the forum. Love to talk with him. You're story you prove it. What you've said though is good enough for me. I would like to know Phil's last name.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  2. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Sigh... Phil Whitesell is the whole name, my friend...

    You can try confirm with him:

    1. He walked-on for 3 straight years at USC without a scholarship, and being a reserve.

    2. He moonlighted a gazillion of things for his spendings at the time.
     
  3. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Look dude. There's currently 13 guys on the USC roster. 6 are Americans. Regardless of the roster make up back in 1992 or whatever I'm not going to feel sorry for some American who chooses to USC. Who's fault is it if a tennis player chooses to play tennis at the best school in the country and find out there's not enough of the 4.5 tennis scholarships to go around? Let's blame the internationals. Byron Black played 5 on one of his teams. They were awfully good.

    BTW. It appears there was only 7 guys on some of his rosters. Mostly Americans. And he did not have a tennis scholarship? Really? Who's fault is that?

    Also BTW. USC is private so they can do whatever they want to. According to some of the "dumb the game downers".
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  4. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Don't know much about Byron, but Wayne Black did BECAME #1 next year after being #5 the freshmen year. My point is: even Wayne took a whole year to develop, let alone Phil.

    Phil had stuck around and proven he deserved a scholarship by contributing with crucial wins in 3 NCAA Finals, but what did he got? Nothing.

    At least for the 1994 team (whom I met them all), there was a Hungary guy, a Swede guy, a Swiss guy (maybe Belgium?), and Wayne Black. So at least 4 international players out of maybe seven got full schlarships. I don't believe the roster will disclose their $$ status.

    Guess who the coaches ended up relied on in 3 NCAA finals? - the reserve, the walk-on Phil who didn't cost a dime, and WON crucial points!

    My point is: international scholarships are "sticky", it's not really open to competition for local kids anymore once the foreign kids gets in. Even if the local kid beats out the foreign kid in the middle of the season, there is no guarantee guys like Whitesell can get one the next season.

    It doesn't help with many commitments to future foreign recruits who were offered scholarship *before* they even play in any NCAA matches to prove their worthiness.

    So guys like Whitesell were stuck, it's too late to switch college after 2-3 years (particularly if the player has already spent time in JC. He definitely don't want to spend 5+ years in college regardless, so again, he's stuck. Look around, and you'll find many stories like that, particularly in top schools.)

    Why didn't these kids play in div 2 while there are more offerings?

    Why should they if they can compete in div 1?

    Div 2 kill their development!

    There are way more examples like Whitesell's than you may realize.
    If NCAA do what the JCs do, well, private colleges will be subjected to the same rules, so why not.

    I believe the "dumb-down" process will only last only a short time if it happen at all.

    Coaches will be forced to develop their players to compete with the existing top players, international or not. You're not gonna send out below 4.5 NTRP players overnight or thereafter. You need to consistently *turn 5.0s into 5.5 or 6.0s*, and I am gonna argue that:

    1. US is never short of 5.0 level high school grads, and they don't deserve to play in Div 2 schools that kill their further development potentials due to the lack of higher level competitions, even if they can get those easier.

    2. if NCAA div 1 school coaches aren't even able to turn 5.0s into 5.5 or 6.0s, they fail US tennis in general anyway, so yes, let's "dumb down" the whole process until they figure out how to develop player right and fast, like the euros.

    Football samples: Boise State, Utah, South Florida etc.-- still don't get much blue-chip recruits, but still give top BCS school fits all the time.

    -- BY DEVELOPING THEIR OWN PLAYERS

    "If you can't recruit against the top dogs, you better develop your own FAST"
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  5. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Nice new idiotic label you have come up with. Now where the "dumb the game downers". I guess that's better than being called a racist, which is the normal talking point.

    But you never address how limiting internationals is going to "dumb the game down" even though this has been refuted time and again. The top programs will still be able to attract the top players and the top international players will still have no problem finding places on international rosters. The bottom 50% of internationals are not significantly better than the Americans they are replacing, and if they were, so what. These are probably all div II spots and none of them are going on to be pros anyhow.

    How about we call you the "ostriches". Foreign scholarships are continuing to grow an make up and ever increasing percentage of scholarships. More an more Americans are losing the ability to play high level college tennis, and you don't give crap, because they are not "blue chips" or "five stars" , not the next Pete Sampras. American college tennis is just some pro-tennis minor league to you. But for these kids, it an opportunity to accomplish something substantial in life, earning their own college education through there dedication and hard work..but, heck some European kid worked harder...
     
  6. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    One last thing before I dispppear for weeks again:

    Nobody mention the "sticky-ness" of international schloarships.

    Meaning: as long as the player do not commit major violations or perform REALLY bad. Their scholarship stay theirs regardless even though they may not even start during the season any longer, and got beat out by the locals as in the Whitesell example, even though he ended up start during the middle of all the 3 championship years.

    (You can't ask an international player who can't afford the tuition and living to compete for it year-by-year when you recruit them, so basically their "agreement" is that it's NOT an "annual contract renewal" situation. Even if they lax off in their performance, coaches generally tend to give them at least another year for the benefits of doubts to wait and see, and to save the hassle of those crazy paperworks.)

    It doesn't help with many commitments to future foreign recruits who were offered scholarship *before* they even play in any NCAA matches to prove their worthiness.

    Meaning: Competition become MORE intense among the locals for even less scholarships for a 4/5-year period, because of the int. schloarship "stickiness" situation. The locals are more or less just compete among themselves for the remaining scholarships.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  7. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I did make a mistake, it was Wayne Black who played #5. Still a very good team with a player his caliber that low on the roster. It appears Phil Whitesell was on the 91 team with Byron. Don't know much about Byron Black? OK, I get where this is coming from. The one story I find about "Phil" shows he won and the team lost. http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-19/sports/sp-229_1_notre-dame Their program shows Phil played on 1994 championship team. It also appears to have a typo on the 1991 championship team showing Wayne Black not Bryon Black. Little hard to be true considering Wayne did not go to USC until 92 and 91 was Byron's last year. Oh well, just details. http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/usc/sports/m-tennis/auto_pdf/0809mtenmediaguide-2.pdf Although he played on 3 championship teams sounds to me like you have some selective memory going on there.

    I've addressed it before. I've also addressed how there's plenty of tennis scholarships for 4, 3 2 and 1 star tennis players. Many times.

    Another made up assumption about college tennis. I've seen international players lose their tennis scholarship more than once. Seen it happen at a D1 program in Louisiana and at at NAIA program in Missouri. Happens to both international and American players. Losing your tennis scholarship although it's rare for performance related issues, is an equal opportunity possibility.
     
  8. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Anyone that compares football to tennis loses all credibility in this argument. There is nothing about these sports that puts them on nearly the same level of consideration. Scholarship volume will never be close between these sports. If you don't get that, I cannot help you.
     
  9. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Agreed. If there were some other jack-*ss countries offering scholarships to american 20 y/o freshman, it wouldn't be so exasperatingly stupid.

    We are the lone, unique dumb beacon. "Give us your internationally trained, your two years older,....."
     
  10. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Is college football or baseball (or basketball) not entertaining because they don't have NFL, MLB or NBA players playing?

    Is HS football or tennis dumbing down the game because they don't have 19 y/o & 20 y/o players playing.

    Would there be fewere fans in the empty seats if 20 y/o freshman from Australia, Ireland or Bulgaria weren't on the team?


    .

    The scholarships going to non-americans are NOT going to american kids. Wanting 80% of the scholarships (or roster spots) to go to an american kid instead of a 20 y/o freshman from Denmark is not xenophobia.....it's common sense.

    One reason why Bryan's email hit such a nerve.
     
  11. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I know what I can prove.

    The overwhelming number of the Top 300 U.S. boys and girls (approximately 85% of the boys and 87% of the girls) are receiving college tennis scholarships. Those who did not are explained.
     
  12. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Welcome to the land of the free


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/tennis/protection-racquet.17561945
     
  13. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Readers.....if there are any......do not believe this about scholarships for people with foreign passports. It just isn't true.

    There is no "crazy paperworks" involved in a non-renewal of a grant-in-aid agreement. There is less!

    When your kid is recruited....whatever your nationality may be...please understand that the agreement is year-by-year...........and if a coach is telling you anything different, he/she is not being honest with you.

    The idea that foreigners are getting 4-year scholys and Americans are getting 1-year scholys is kinda indicative of the emotional reach for anything to say about the topic that....frankly in my opinion....is beginning to shed more heat than light on the issue
     
  14. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    [.................................
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  15. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I'm one of the 6 readers and I haven't believed a lick of what PaulC has said at any point during this thread. Except for him being 25% Irish, which certainly is ironic.
     
  16. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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  17. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I firmly believe that many of the detractors on this subject throw out misinformation, innuendo, outright lies and try to spread fear regarding this matter to bolster support from the uninformed. Community Organizing at its finest.
     
  18. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    andfor,
    Cannot even share a newspaper article?

    You know Quickstart/TAUT attracts so many young kids/parents to tennis.

    I deifinitely do not want parents/kids to be blind and not knowing what is going on in college tennis or pro world.

    Kids should not be playing this sport for a wrong reason. Kids and parents should evaluate their goal, using the infos, so they can really enjoy the journey.

    No regret later on!
     
  19. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I hear you. This has been discussed. Most H.S. athletes in all sports do not play in college. Competition for athletic scholarships in all sports is steep.
     
  20. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    We are grateful for your efforts to save us from blindness and ignorance.

    If anyone wants to evaluate the chances to play college tennis, all that needs to be done is to look at the College Commitments data on TRN. TRN even has archives. It takes a little extra sleuthing to verify who is getting offers, but it is usually pretty obvious.

    Each year about 4 pages of boys and girls each are committing. That's about 400 each. 400 boys and 400 girls each year. Those are the odds juniors are looking at. It's pretty easy to see the ranking it takes to get into high major/BCS, mid-major, D2, D3, etc.

    If any readers out there are forcing your kids to play tennis for the purpose of getting an athletic scholarship, you would probably want to take a look at the TRN College Commitment lists
     
  21. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

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    Interesting read this rehashed thread. I feel some empathy as I played soccer in college in the early to mid nineties. There were 4 non-u.s. kids on scholarship. I always wonder why college soccer programs don't raid Brazil & Argentina to scoop up 10 or so kids who aren't good enough to turn pro at 17 but have more talent than most American players. Should I assume the pool of U.S. kids playing soccer is deeper and overall more talented than the tennis pool? Is it because tennis teams field fewer players therefore justifying the foreign stacking! Or is it simply that other than the coaches & a tiny fraction of the student body/alumni no one cares (or notices) the tennis team? Professional leagues such as the MLS (and most other pro soccer leagues) limit the amount of foreign players on each team to foster the development of home-grown talent. I think the tennis issue boils down to college coaches wanting to be competitive. If that means fielding the Irish under-21 tennis team that's what they'll do to keep their job or get a better one. Personally, I don't care. I do give coaches like Ty Tucker at Ohio State more props for developing local kids. Then again he probably gets to pick from the cream of the crop. Sorry Ohio U coach, better book that flight to Croatia!
     
  22. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

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    Side note, just flipped through the channels & caught some Big Ten gymnastics on tv. In the 5 minutes I watched I didn't see 1 Chinese gymnast. Even though they have been the best in that sports the last few Olympics. Just trying to figure out why tennis seems to be so internationally diverse in comparison to other non-major (football, basketball, baseball) college athletics. Non of the other sports including tennis make a dime. In fact, they're all money losers. So why do these schools feel compelled to search far & wide for tennis players?
     
  23. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    The US is top 2 in the world in gymnastics. On top of that, kids get enrolled in gymnastics at a very early age as it is beneficial in overall strength and flexibility. Basically the greatest starter sport available along with swimming, which we are also top 2 in the world in.

    Why no Chinese? Well, you'll probably see them in the future but for the time being they are professionals by the time they are 13 or 14. I doubt the Chinese are eager to allow these girls to go to the US to train and try to declare amateur status.

    That being said, one of Florida's top gymnasts on our NCAA runner up team is from England. She'll be an Olympian for them this summer in her home country and she is super stoked about it. Marissa King: http://www.gatorzone.com/gymnastics/bios.php?year=2012&player_id=30

    Matter of fact, one thing I heard about UF talked about by the coaches was that if former UF athletes were there own country they would have finished 13th in medal count in the Beijing Olympics. They use this as a line to recruits about the level of athletes they'll be training amongst
     
  24. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Don't hold back..I believe you also think we are racist xenophobes trying to manipulate the system to get scholarships for our unworthy kids...
     
  25. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I don't think andfor believes that, could be wrong, but if you think the shoe fits............
     
  26. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

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    Sorry I overreached on the gymnastics comparison. I don't watch enough to have thrown that out there. But i do watch & follow a lot of soccer. So my comparison there I stand behind.
     
  27. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Oh, in soccer there is too much money in the international pro game. The elite players can become rich by the time they are 20. You'll see some foreigners come to the US in the mid majors, but the foreign soccer athlete that comes here to play is not a high level player.

    ESPN the Mag article on highest paying teams in the world: http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/...telligence-global-salary-survey-espn-magazine

    But, I would also tend to say that the pool of soccer talent is much larger in the US. I don't have the exact figures, but I know that it's popularity growth over the past 30 years has trounced tennis.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  28. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I don't. I said "many" not "all". As a matter of fact I respect many of the opposing opinions and suggestions. One sided positions and misinformation on the other hand that continues to come up, I will oppose.
     
  29. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

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    Would both sides of this argument agree that the influx of international players among the American collegiate ranks is mainly due to college coaches wanting to win? I'm guessing these coaches who field 75% internationals feel those players give them the best chance at winning. Instead of writing to politicians why not write to school officials if it irks you so much. Especially if you're an alum or a booster They'll at least hear you out. And if you organize a group of alums/donors they'll probably make some sort of concession. I agree to the point that the playing field should be level (age wise) regardless of where a student-athlete comes from. My point here is try to address the source directly.
     
  30. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I would say first and foremost internationals playing college tennis is primarily due to market demand. College tennis only exists in the U.S. and there are many internationals wanting to continue their tennis and get their college education. Second, would be college coaches can within the rules and law pick up more competitive tennis players for their rosters than they can Americans.

    The numbers have been posted before here, somewhere. The overall percentage of college athletes being international within an entire college athletic dept. is very, very small. The AD and Admin will view it as such and priortitize other needs and tasks over worrying about international players on the tennis team. There's also a court ruling back in the 70's.

    Overall big picture, it's just not as big a deal as the "sky is falling on college tennis" crowd is trying to make it out to be. I say that knowing that American tennis players are still getting tennis scholarships as more than enough are out there for those willing to look for them..
     
  31. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I believe that desire to win is foremost in the coaches mind. Let's face it, coaches don't get into coaching to lose. They have egos and if finding superior talent than one can find within their state, region, or country they will do it.

    I totally agree that boosters are far more likely to get an effect than politicians. A politician is going to see this as a problem that affects a handful of citizens. They have bigger fish to fry.

    If you are able to organize enough boosters to cough up the money to endow domestic-player scholarships...ADs and presidents will listen to that. You'll probably end up running off the coach, if that is the goal. They won't listen to you if you just call up to complain about it without a checkbook.
     
  32. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

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    There it is in my view. 'winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.'.
    Thanks Vince! I personally would love to see coaches on the amateur level (yes I still foolishly believe college is amateur) take more pride in finding & developing more local talent. When I say local I mean within a state for a state funded university. Isn't that why state schools are in existence? To enrich the communities around them? Again, I'm not saying ban international kids. Just work more with what's available in-state. So yes, I'm saying limit both international & out of state athletes. Good luck fielding a football team Boise State!!!
     
  33. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Never gonna happen. Ever.

    See: BCS
     

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