Understanding just how unbelievable Navratilova really was at her peak in 83-84!

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by federerfanatic, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    It seems there is some complete ignorance by some people to just how almost completely untouchable, scary to oppose, and just plain incredible Navratilova was at her absolute peak in 1983-1984. Particularly by a certain Graf loving troll who seems to think she was merely a good player romping through a clown era, who Graf would have mysteriously been able to just brush aside, when Graf could hardly ever beat her in straight sets past age 30. I thought I would like to share this excerpt from a book on Martina and Chris that really entails just how incredible Martina truly was at her absolute peak:


     
    #1
  2. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    Very true. Martina at that time was untouchable even by Evert. Martina did force Evert to get better though, making her finally go to the gym and change from wood to graphite.
     
    #2
  3. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    You are right. Evert really showed the determination, resiliency, and competitive spirit of a champion around this point, taking her own game and fitness to a completely new level to compete with what seemed like the inhuman heights attained by Navratilova. She even had to transform her style of play to some degree. It would have been easy to quit, and many were even telling her to at the time, but instead she did everything she could to challenge Navratilova again.
     
    #3
  4. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    I couldn't have said it better myself. ;) Evert was a class act all the way. I miss watching her and Martina play.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
    #4
  5. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    You definitely are not the only ones who miss them. Two players like that pushing each other to greater heights for so many years, mantaining a knawing drive and hunger to win vs the other each time they step onto a court, but still doing it with class and style, does not come around very often.
     
    #5
  6. backhander

    backhander Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    281
    I wasn't watching tennis at around this time, didn't really get into tennis till around 89, but how did Evert do after changing her game and fitness to compete against Navratilova. One thing about Navratilova is that I didn't really like her in the early 90's, but now I seem to be rooting for her when i do get a chance to see her play. Her netplay is awesome.
     
    #6
  7. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA

    Here's a quote from chrisevert.net a great Evert site:

    Martina completely dominated women’s tennis from 1983 through 1984, handing Chris a daunting 2-year draught in their head-to-head meetings, with Martina winning 13 consecutive matches. Evert had beaten Martina in 15 of 17 matches between the Spring of 1975 and the end of 77, but losing in that manner was completely alien to Chris. However, 13 did prove to be the unluckiest of numbers, even for one of Navratilova’s stature, as Chris was to break the chain of losses in their next meeting.

    After a near-win in the 84 US Open final against Navratilova 4-6 6-4 6-4, the 13th consecutive loss, the two rivals played in an exhibition match in the US, and Chris charged net at every opportunity, beating Martina convincingly, 6-2 6-4. As the 1984 season closed, with the Australian Open, Evert won her 1000th career match, the first player ever to do so, and then won the title, furthering her string of consecutive years winning a Grand Slam event to 11; a string that would reach a record 13. (Perhaps 13 is a number that always plays the role of streak-ender!)

    In any case, it all represented a change in fortune for Evert. She next met Martina again in January 1985 at a tournament in Key Biscayne, and this time it was not an exhibition, but for the record: she won again in a 6-2 6-4 repeat of her earlier victory. Then, four months later, in June, Chris took her second Grand Slam in a row, again beating Martina in one of the most dramatic and well-played matches in women’s tennis history, winning the French Open 6-3 6-7 7-5.
    This victory tied Chris for the all-time record for victories at the French (She broke the record the following year, beating Martina again 2-6 6-3 6-3 in another long, dramatic final for her 7th French crown), but in addition, Chris regained the world’s number one ranking back from Navratilova.

    “Many people missed what that match meant. It wasn’t just that Chris had beaten Martina again or had won another Grand Slam,” tennis analyst and coach Andy Brandi was to say at the time, “It was so much more than that: The Queen was back on the Throne. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place.”

    Indeed, that was the romance of it, and Chris would hold the ranking until the final month of the year. It would be her final stay at the top, at age 31. But the Throne was forever hers. Adding honor to achievement in 1985, the Women’s Sports Foundation named Evert the Greatest Woman Athlete of the Last 25 Years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
    #7
  8. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    The opposition in those years was an absolute joke.
    Let's have a look at whom Navratilova beat in the slams in 1983/84 (she won 6 of 8 ).

    FO 83: Lost in 3rd round against Horvath.
    Wim 83: beat 3rd seed Jaeger in final.
    USO 83: beat 5th seed Shriver and in the final Evert.
    AO 83: beat 3rd seed Shriver and in the final 9th seed K. Jordan.
    FO 84: beat 4th seed Mandlikova and in the final Evert.
    Wim 84: beat 6th seed Jordan and Evert.
    USO 84: beat 13th seed Turnbull (31) and Evert.
    AO 84: lost to 9th seed Sukova.

    Evert was a legit opponent but the rest were absolute clowns.
    We don't even talk about Jordan, Jaeger and Turnbull.
    Leaves us with Mandlikova and Shriver who were #3 and #4 in the world at that time.

    Shriver and Mandlikova were still young (mid-20ies) at the end of the 80ies when they ran into Steffi Graf.

    At age 16 Graf played Hana for the first time (in 1986 at Hilton Head) and beat her easily 6-2 6-4. Some weeks later she lost to her in 3 sets at FO 86 while having a severe cold. After that Steffi won against Hana 6-3 6-4 (Amelia Island 1987), 6-4 6-1 (FedCup 1987), 6-2 6-2 (Zurich 1987), 6-2 6-2 (AO 1988 ), 7-6 6-3 (San Antonio 1989), 6-3 6-4 (Amelia Island 1989) and 6-0 6-1 (Mahwah 1989).
    So in 1987-89 peak Graf played a 25-27-year-old Hana Mandlikova 7 times.
    She won all 7 matches and all 14 sets. The average result was 6-3 6-2.

    Steffi had just turned 16 when she played her first match against Shriver at Wimbledon 1985, losing in a tight 3-setter. 2 months later she beat Pam at USO but lost again in Filderstadt. At the beginning of 1986 - still being 16 - she beat Shriver in a 3-setter at the Masters. So they were even (2-2 H2H) but 16-year-old Steffi had overtaken 23-year-old Pam in the rankings in the meanwhile.
    Peaking Steffi played Shriver 3 times in slams in 1987/88 with an average result of 6-2 6-2.

    So much about Hana and Pam, Navratilova/Evert's main opponents of the mid-80ies ...


    Condi
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
    #8
  9. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    So Evert went to the gym after 1983/84, OK (unbelievable that a top player could survive back then without doing that!).
    Nevertheless Evert lost to 16-year-old Graf at the beginning of 1986 - and the next 7 matches as well, winning only 1 of 17 sets against the German superstar.

    Condi
     
    #9
  10. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    1986 was clearly the beginning of the end for Evert who began to be unable to sustain her consistency which had always been one of her greatest strengths.

    Here's some stats for her 1986 season, which includes two wins over Graf in straight sets.

    1986

    Tournament Wins: 6
    Match Record: 59-7

    * Virginia Slims of Florida (Key Biscayne, FL): 2R def. Petra Huber 6-2, 6-1; 3R def. Carling Bassett 6-1, 6-0; QF def. Stephanie Rehe 6-1, 6-0; SF def. Manuela Maleeva 6-1, 6-0; F def. Steffi Graf 6-3, 6-1

    * Lipton International Players Championships (Boca Raton, FL): 1R def. Susan Sloane 6-4, 6-4; 2R def. Marie-Christine Calleja 6-4, 6-0; 3R def. Catherine Suire 7-5, 6-1; 4R def. Kathy Jordan 7-5, 6-2; QF def. Terry Phelps 6-2, 6-0; SF def. Kathy Rinaldi 7-6, 6-1; F def. Steffi Graf 6-4, 6-2


    * Virginia Slims of California (Oakland, CA): 2R def. Peanut Louie 6-1, 6-0; QF def. Wendy Turnbull 6-1, 6-3; SF def. Helena Sukova 7-5, 6-4; F def. Kathy Jordan 6-2, 6-4


    Virginia Slims of Dallas (Dallas, TX): 2R def. Terry Phelps 6-2, 6-0; 3R def. Bettina Bunge 6-1, 6-4; QF def. Zina Garrison 6-4, 6-3; SF def. Kathy Rinaldi 6-4, 6-2; F lost to Martina Navratilova 6-2, 6-1


    Virginia Slims Championships (New York, NY): 1R def. Barbara Potter 6-2, 6-4; QF def. Helena Sukova 1-6, 6-1, 6-1; SF lost to Hana Mandlikova 6-3, 7-5


    * Chrysler-Plymouth Tournament of Champions (Marco Island, FL): 2R def. Maria Lindstrom 6-0, 6-0; QF def. Kathy Rinaldi 6-1, 6-3; SF def. Bonnie Gadusek 6-1, 6-1; F def. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch 6-2, 6-4


    Family Circle Magazine Cup (Hilton Head, SC): 2R def. Sylvia Hanika 7-6, 6-1; 3R def. Helen Kelesi 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Helena Sukova 6-3, 6-4; SF def. Stephanie Rehe 6-2, 6-1; F lost to Steffi Graf 6-4, 7-5


    * Virginia Slims of Houston (Houston, TX): 1R def. Anne Smith 6-0, 6-2; 2R def. Ann Henricksson 6-2, 6-1; QF def. Kate Gompert 6-4, 6-1; SF def. Laura Arraya Gildemeister 6-7, 6-0, 6-0; F def. Kathy Rinaldi 6-4, 2-6, 6-4


    * French Open Championships (Paris, France): 1R def. Cecile Calmette 6-0, 6-1; 2R def. Nathalie Herreman 6-2, 6-1; 3R def. Anne Smith 6-3, 6-1; 4R def. Gabriela Sabatini 1-6, 6-3, 6-3; QF def. Carling Bassett 5-7. 6-2, 6-1; SF def. Hana Mandlikova 6-1, 6-1; F def. Martina Navratilova 2-6, 6-3, 6-3


    All-England Championships (Wimbledon, England): 1R def. Mary Joe Fernandez 6-4, 6-1; 2R def. Pam Casale 6-0, 5-7, 6-1; 3R def. Kathleen Horvath 6-4, 6-1; 4R def. Kathy Jordan 7-5, 6-2; QF def. Helena Sukova 7-6, 4-6, 6-4; SF lost to Hana Mandlikova 7-6, 7-5


    Federation Cup (Prague, Czechoslovakia): 2R def. Maria Llorca, Spain 6-1, 6-0; QF lost to Sandra Cecchini, Italy 3-6, 6-4, 6-3; SF def. Bettina Bunge, West Germany 6-3, 6-4; F def. Helena Sukova 7-5, 7-6. (Evert was not used in the United States’ first round tie against China).


    Virginia Slims of Los Angeles (Manhattan Beach, CA): 2R def. Elise Burgin 6-4, 6-2; 3R def. Bettina Bunge 7-6, 6-4; QF def. Manuela Maleeva 3-6, 6-0, 6-0; SF def. Pam Shriver 6-4, 6-4; F lost to Martina Navratilova 7-6, 6-3


    United States Open Championships (Flushing, Queens, NY): 1R def. Barbara Gerken 6-2, 6-1; 2R Regina Marsikova 6-0, 6-0; 3R def. Mary Joe Fernandez 6-4, 6-2; 4R def. Catarina Lindqvist 6-2, 2-6, 6-2; QF def. Manuela Maleeva 6-2, 6-2; SF lost to Helena Sukova 6-2, 6-4


    Sat out rest of season with chondromalacia patella in her left knee, which had troubled her throughout the spring and summer.


    Season Highlights
    --Won record 7th French Open title
    --Opened the year with three straight tournament victories.

    When would Evert have lost to a player like Cecchini in her prime? Never.
    A decent year but definitely starting her decline.
     
    #10
  11. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,177
    Location:
    shiran
    Great thread, would be interesting to see a table of match winning percentage from Graf by year.
     
    #11
  12. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA


    I am sure Condi can oblige.
     
    #12
  13. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    59-7 - that is a 89.4 % winning percentage.

    1979 - Winning Percentage: 86.6 %
    1980 - Winning Percentage: 90.7 %
    1981 - Winning Percentage: 91.8 %
    1982 - Winning Percentage: 92.0 %
    1983 - Winning Percentage: 86.2 %
    1984 - Winning Percentage: 89.3 %
    1985 - Winning Percentage: 90.8 %
    1979-1985 - Winning Percentage: 89.6 %

    So I don't see how Evert was worse in 1986 than in the seven years before that. Yet Graf (16) beat her in April 1986 in 2 sets on clay and never lost another match against Chrissie.

    And please don't tell me that Evert of the mid-70ies was a better player than Evert of the 80ies .....


    Condi
     
    #13
  14. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    Graf 1986-96


    1986. (91% 64-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1987. (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1988. (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1989. (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1990. (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1991. (89% 65-8 ) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1992. (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1993. (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1994. (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1995. (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
    1996. (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)


    Condi
     
    #14
  15. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    True but for 1986 Evert's record against Graf was 2-1 in Evert's favor. I am talking about after that.

    Let's look at Evert's 1987 shall we?


    1987

    Tournament Wins: 5
    Match Record: 72-13

    Virginia Slims of Florida (Boca Raton, FL): 2R def. Elna Reinach 6-4, 6-2; 3R lost to Kate Gompert 3-6, 6-4, 6-2

    Lipton International Players Championships (Key Biscayne, FL): 1R def. Jennifer Mundel 6-0, 6-1; 2R def. Akiko Kijimuta 6-1, 6-2; 3R def. Vicki Nelson-Dunbar 6-0, 6-0; 4R def. Stephanie Rehe 6-3, 6-2; QF def. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch 6-2, 7-5; SF def. Hana Mandlikova 7-5, 6-0; F lost to Steffi Graf 6-1, 6-2

    * Virginia Slims of Dallas (Dallas, TX): 1R def. Katerina Maleeva 2-6, 6-3, 6-1; 2R def, Carling Bassett 6-0, 6-1; QF def. Stephanie Rehe 6-1, 6-0; SF def. Zina Garrison 3-6, 6-1, 6-0; F def. Pam Shriver 6-1, 6-3


    Family Circle Magazine Cup (Hilton Head, SC): 2R def. Petra Huber 7-5, 6-2; 3R def. Debbie Spence 6-3, 6-0; QF def. Bettina Bunge 6-3, 6-2; SF lost to Manuela Maleeva 6-1, 2-6, 7-6

    * Virginia Slims of Houston (Houston, TX): 1R def. Nathalie Herreman 6-1, 6-1; 2R def. Mariana Perez-Roldan 6-2, 6-1; QF def. Kate Gompert 6-3, 6-3; SF def. Hana Mandlikova 6-3, 7-5; F def. Martina Navratilova 3-6, 6-1, 7-6


    * Eckerd-Florida Federal Open (Tampa, FL): 1R def. Gabriela Dinu 6-2, 6-1; 2R def. Camille Benjamin 6-3, 6-1; QF def. Laura Arraya Gildemeister 6-2, 6-1; SF def. Beverley Bowes 6-0, 6-0; F def. Kate Gompert 6-3, 6-2


    * European Open (Geneva, Switzerland): 2R def. Emmanuelle Derly 6-1, 6-4; 3R def. Kate Gompert 6-3, 6-1; QF def. Mary Joe Fernandez 7-6, 6-1; SF def. Lori McNeil 6-0, 6-2; F def. Manuela Maleeva 6-3, 4-6, 6-2


    French Open Championships (Paris, France): 1R def. Eva Pfaff 6-1, 6-3; 2R def. Isabelle Demongeot 6-3, 7-5; 3R def. Eva Krapl 6-2, 6-0; 4R def. Katerina Maleeva 6-3, 6-1; QF Raffaella Reggi 6-2, 6-2; SF lost to Martina Navratilova 6-2, 6-2


    Pilkington Glass Ladies Championships (Eastbourne, England): 1R def. Sharon Walsh-Pete 6-2, 6-1; 2R def. Lisa Bonder 6-1, 6-1; 3R def. Wendy White 6-3, 6-4; QF def. Larissa Savchenko 6-3, 6-1; SF lost to Helena Sukova 4-6, 6-4, 8-6

    All-England Championships (Wimbledon, England): 1R def. Sara Gomer 6-1, 6-0; 2R def. Laura Golarsa 7-5, 6-0; 3R def. Kumiko Okamoto 7-5, 6-0; 4R def. Rosalyn Fairbank 6-2, 2-6, 7-5; QF def. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch 6-1, 6-3; SF lost to Martina Navratilova 6-2, 5-7, 6-4


    Federation Cup (Vancouver, British Columbia): 1R def. Etsuko Inoue, Japan 6-2, 6-4; 2R def. Nathalie Tauziat, France 6-1, 6-0; QF def. Jo Durie, Great Britain 6-3, 6-1; SF def. Manuela Maleeva 6-2, 2-6, 6-4; F lost to Steffi Graf, West Germany 6-2, 6-1

    Virginia Slims of Los Angeles (Manhattan Beach, CA): 2R def. Robin White 6-0, 7-5; 3R def. Jana Novotna 7-6, 6-3; QF def. Lori McNeil 6-1, 7-5; SF def. Martina Navratilova 6-2, 6-1; F lost to Steffi Graf 6-3, 6-4


    Canadian Open Players Championship (Toronto, Ontario): 2R def. Sara Gomer 6-3, 6-2; 3R def. Nathalie Tauziat 6-2, 6-2; QF def. Helen Kelesi 6-2, 6-0; SF lost to Pam Shriver 6-4, 6-1


    United States Open Championships (Flushing, Queens, NY): 1R def. Susan Sloane 6-1, 6-0; 2R def. Niege Dias 6-0, 6-1; 3R def. Natalia Zvereva 6-0, 6-2; 4R def. Manuela Maleeva 7-5, 6-4; QF lost to Lori McNeil 3-6, 6-2, 6-4
    * Virginia Slims of New Orleans (New Orleans, LA): 1R def. Anne Minter 6-0, 6-1; 2R def. Barbara Gerken 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Anne Smith 6-2, 6-0; SF def. Wendy Turnbull 3-2 ret.; F def. Lori McNeil 6-3, 6-4


    Porsche Grand Prix (Filderstadt, West Germany): 1R def. Regina Marsikova 6-2, 7-5; 2R def. Raffaella Reggi 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Mary Joe Fernandez 6-2, 5-7, 6-4; SF def. Pam Shriver 7-5, 6-3; F lost to Martina Navratilova 7-5, 6-1


    Virginia Slims of New England (Worcester, MA): 1R def. Michelle Torres 6-3, 6-3; 2R def. Andrea Holikova 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Barbara Potter 1-6, 6-1, 6-3; SF def. Gabriela Sabatini 6-4, 7-6; F lost to Pam Shriver 6-4, 4-6, 6-0
    Virginia Slims Championships (New York, NY): 1R lost to Sylvia Hanika 6-4, 6-4


    All the matches I highlighted clearly show that by this point Evert was definitely on the decline and that Graf was clearly coming into her prime.
     
    #15
  16. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Well to be fair to Manuela Maleeva, she did play Evert 5 times on clay in 1984 when she was definitely in her prime, and beat her in straight sets in the Italian Open final, and while losing the other 4 meetings took Evert to 3 sets in 3 of those 4. So it is not as if a clay court win vs Evert would have been unfathomable to ever happen in Evert's prime. I am not saying I disagree Evert was clearly past her prime in the year 1987 though.
     
    #16
  17. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    Manuela was clearly the best of the Maleeva sisters to play by far so I can agree with your point.
     
    #17
  18. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Yeah all 3 of them were pretty good players but she clearly had the best and most consistent career of the 3.
     
    #18
  19. Yours!05

    Yours!05 Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Australia
    Great post. Carry on.:)
     
    #19
  20. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA

    We plan to. :D
     
    #20
  21. Lambsscroll

    Lambsscroll Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,471
    Location:
    United States
    Margaret Smith Court "For sheer strength of performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match" her.[1] Between 1960 and 1975, she won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in the same calendar year. Court won 62 of the 85 Grand Slam finals (72.9%) in which she appeared, including 24-5 (82.8%) in singles finals. She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.
     
    #21
  22. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA

    It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.
     
    #22
  23. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    Yes, but she still is #2 behind Graf. Navi is only 3rd.

    Condi
     
    #23
  24. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Well if one considers it a reasonable estimate she would have won 5-7 titles there had it been a fully attended slam, that would still give her 18-20 slams, definitely among the all time greatest. I say 5-7 since she won 3 Wimbledons on grass, 5 U.S Opens on grass, generaly underachied at Wimbledon, and would get probably a bit of a boost playing in front of the home crowd. Then again she would still then probably hold no significant records in all likelihood. Her most grand slam singles gone, her most grand slam doubles combined gone, her most grand slam slam womens doubles her most combined grand slam singles/womens doubles/mixed doubles gone. Totally up in the air who would hold the most slam titles at the Australian Open itself, could be here, or could have been a number of people had it always been a fully attended slam.

    Also players like Navratilova and Evert would likely have won more slams then their current 18 total, had it been a fully attended slam then, whether it was on grass or hard courts. Evert only won 2 titles there vs 3 Wimbledons(grass)and 6 U.S Opens(hard). Navratilova only won 3 titles there vs 9 Wimbledons(grass) and 4 U.S Opens(hard court, and some bad luck at the U.S Open too).

    I dont rate her the GOAT either for the same reason. I would have her either #3 or #4 in the Open era, just ahead of her great rival Billie Jean King who I have #5 in the Open era.
     
    #24
  25. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    I agree had she not taken 3 different retirements, while in the prime of her career, she would almost certainly be the undisputed GOAT today. That was her choice though.
     
    #25
  26. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    Same with Graf.
    If she hadn't retired in 1999 but 5 years later she would have ended with about 26-28 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

    Condi
     
    #26
  27. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046

    Court's 3 retirements each came when she was dominating the game. Graf's retirement came when she had won 1 out of the last 7 grand slams she played over almost 3 years, missing 4 others with injuries. How you think she was going to rebound at that point to win another 4-6 slams over the next 5 years, as she only got older, and the Williams sisters took the game to a higher level then it was during the Hingis reign, I can only imagine.
     
    #27
  28. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418

    The Williams sisters took the game to higher level ....?:D :D :D
    What about checking against which journeywomen the Willies lost in 2000-04 before posting BS like that in a public internet forum?

    Graf had overtaken the Willies in the rankings in summer of 1999. She had made 2 of the last 2 slam finals. Of course she would have become older, she would have been 30-34 in 2000-04.

    But Navratilova made 7 slam finals at age 30-34, won 3 of the them, lost 4 against a young Graf - against the greatest player of all time.

    So Graf would have been able to make AT LEAST 7 slam finals in 2000-04, IMO.
    And she would have won more than just 3 of them.
    26-28 slams is a quite reasonable estimate.


    Condi
     
    #28
  29. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,581
    SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

    1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
    1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
    1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

    1961 Nil

    1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
    1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
    1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
    1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

    1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
    1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
    1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

    1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
    1964 Kerry Melville
    1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

    1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
    1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
    1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
    1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
    1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
    1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
    1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
    1965 Rosie Darmon
    1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
    1965 Lesley Hunt
    1965 Lea Pericoli
    1965 Kerry Melville

    1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
    1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
    1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
    1966 Judy Tegart
    1966 Lesley Turner

    1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
    1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didn’t play)
    1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
    1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
    1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
    1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
    1967 Betty Stove

    1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
    1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
    1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
    1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

    1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
    1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
    1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
    1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
    1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
    1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
    1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
    1969 Evonne Goolagong

    So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


    NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.
     
    #29
  30. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Venus was nearly unbeatable on fast courts in 2000 and 2001. Those journeywomen losses you are talking about are probably on slow courts, since she did not do that well on slow courts either year, but was dominant from Wimbledon-U.S Open both years. Venus in 1999 was usually losing to Hingis and Davenport, from 2000-2003 she was owning both.

    Serena in 2002 and 2003 was on another planet from Serena in 1999. Serena in 1999 was still losing multiple times to a player like Sandrine Testud.

    Hingis and Davenport were over the Williams too in 1999. Despite the rankings Venus had clearly overtaken Hingis and Davenport by the end of 2000, and Serena and Venus were the 2 dominant players in 2002-2003 playing in 5 out of 6 slam finals in slam events both were in. So they had much progression left after 1999.

    Navratilova was not dealing with all the injuries Graf already was from ages 27-30.

    If she really felt that way why would she not have continued? I doubt she felt the same way you do, if she really felt all the records she was pretty close to were within grasp she would have continued. After all she has always been centred on winning and tennis, and admited to having a one-track vision at the time.
     
    #30
  31. FiveO

    FiveO Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,260
    Excellent post. But you should realize that you're ruining a perfectly good yarn being spun by a particular poster with silly things called "facts". I wrote a similar post in another iteration of this "anti-everyone but Graf" rant being put forth by that poster. Ultimately, without any effect. Nice effort though.
     
    #31
  32. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418

    So only in 3 years more than 4 top-10 players!
    IMO, the other 8 Court titles can't count as true slam titles. They are comparable to a Amelia Island or Moscow title of today.

    Condi
     
    #32
  33. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    Venus played 16 tournaments on fast courts in 00/01 and won 13.
    But she lost to Davenport, Shaughnessy and Maggie Maleeva.
    2 journeywomen (players who never made a slam final).

    And she played 7 tournaments on slow courts, won only 1.
    Losses to Coetzer, Dokic, Sanchez, Hingis, Henin, Schett.
    3 journeywomen.

    And that in her TWO BEST years EVER. 5 journeywomen.

    Graf lost to 5 journeywomen in a ELEVEN-year time frame (1986-96).
    Just to put things a little bit into perspective ...

    Condi
     
    #33
  34. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418

    It was CEvertFan who brought up Court's hollow AO titles in the 60ies ...

    Condi
     
    #34
  35. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    You make a good point, but other than Bueno, Goolagong and King I don't really believe that any of those other players could seriously challenge Court whether they were in the top 10 at the time or not, and since King and Bueno didn't play the AO every year in the 60's and Goolagong came along in the very late 60's and early 70's I still stand by my statement that it was a cakewalk for Court to win the AO in the 60's because she clearly outclassed the field most years.
     
    #35
  36. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    Actually Evert and Navratilova tie for 4th place. Helen Wills Moody is 3rd with 19 GS titles.
     
    #36
  37. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    I am not comparing Venus in her prime to Graf in her prime, which is meaningless to Graf's chances to win slam titles in 2000-2004. Graf in 2000-2004 would not have been in her "prime", she wasnt even in her prime by 1999, so that argument is is irrelevant.

    I am comparing Venus of 2000-2003 to Venus of 1999, since you basicaly implied she was exactly the same which is nonsense. Venus went 2-2 vs Graf in 1999, Serena went 1-1 and both were 3 setters-the win and the loss. So the Williams and Graf were virtualy equal as far as a head to head matchup by 1999 already. Venus from 2000-2003 was much better then 1999, which was my point, and Serena in 2002-2003 was also much better then 1999. Graf would not have gotten better from 1999, the best she could have done at her age is stay the same, but more likely would have gotten worse. The Williams were already playing her equal in 1999, she would have had a very hard time beating them for slam titles in future years at that point.

    I have an idea for you. Why dont you try putting a poll in the general tennis discussion forum. List options for how many slams Graf would have won had she played another 5 years after she retired, and give options from a low of 0, to a higher of 9 or more. See how it turns out.

    You point out Venus won 13 of her 16 "fast surface" events in 2000-2001. That alone proves how much better she was then in 1999. Compare that to how many of her "fast surface" events she won in 1998-1999 combined. Also compare her head to heads with Hingis and Davenport in 98-99, to what they were in 2000-2001.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2007
    #37
  38. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Yeah pretty much. It would be like if Navratilova racked up a bunch of Australian Opens with Evert, Mandilikova, Austin earlier on, Graf later on, all not playing most of the time. Yet all the other top players like Shriver, Hanika, Jaeger, Jordan, Durie playing each year. It is pretty much the same kind of thing.
     
    #38
  39. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    In 2000-03 Graf was gone and Davenport & Hingis slumped or were injured most of the time. Take away all Graf/Davenport/Hingis matches and Venus has the same winning percentage in 1999 as in 2000/03.

    Graf would not have dominated in 2000/04 but she would have won a slam here and there. 4-6 more slams in 5 years would have been easily possible.

    Condi
     
    #39
  40. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Explain to me how it was Hingis and Davenport were slumped or injured most of the time in 2000 and 2001. I can see 2002 and 2003, but not 2000 and 2001.

    Hingis and Davenport did not slump in 2000 and 2001. Davenport's only problem is she was losing to Venus so much, and she wasnt before, except for Venus she is doing just as well as 98-99. Hingis in 2000 was the same as 1998-1999 except losing to Venus much more often too. In 2001 Hingis also started to lose to a rejuvenated Capriati, and to a more mature Serena more often. Hingis in 1998 was already starting to see her dominance ended with the emergence of power tennis, Davenport starting to beat her often, the Williams beating her sometimes, Pierce occasionaly. Then each year from there it increased, Venus and Serena beating her more and more often, Capriati coming back and starting to beat her, etc....So it makes sense 2000 and 2001 was a bit more down from 1998 and 1999, the same way 1998 and 1999 was down from 1997 for her. It was a gradual decline of her former dominance once the power game emerged again.
     
    #40
  41. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418

    Venus Williams win/loss records are:
    1999: 55:12
    2000: 41:4
    2001: 46:5
    2002: 41:6

    Venus was handed her defeats in that year predominantly by Graf, Hingis
    and Davenport. She was 1:2 vs. Graf, 2:3 vs. Davenport and 2:3 vs.
    Hingis in 1999. Graf retired in 1999, Hingis and Davenport started
    their long slump/decline that year. Hingis didn't win a Slam after FO
    99, Davenport not after AO 00. Of course Venus suddenly had better
    results against both.
    If we exclude Venus matches vs. Graf, Hingis and Davenport from Venus'
    win/loss record, we get
    1999: 50:4 (92,6 %)
    2000: 36:3 (92,3 %)
    2001: 42:4 (91,3 %)
    2002: 40:6 (87,0 %)

    Actually, a steady decline - if it weren't for Graf, Davenport and Hingis.
    Go figure ...

    Condi
     
    #41
  42. grizzly4life

    grizzly4life Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,057
    i don't understand the comment about evert raising her game. did she ever become semi-competitive with martina? my vague sense was it got worse, much much worse at times.
     
    #42
  43. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,581
    The point I was making was that your post was a complete and utter fabrication.Please explain to us why you did that as, otherwise, I see very little point in trying to inform you of anything. If you're willing to lie to justify your (false) claims, why would I believe you're capable of accepting genuine facts that don't suit you ?
     
    #43
  44. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    948

    This must be the Graf troll that I keep seeing references to. What a total lack of respect for Mandlikova and Shriver. Hana only won 4 grand slams and is a member of the Hall of Fame. I can only hope that "Condi" is as successful in whatever it is she does for a living.
     
    #44
  45. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA

    The head to head between Evert and Navratilova stands at 43-37 in Martina's favor. Who else besides Evert could have beaten Martina 37 times?!? Before a comment is made, I am taking into account that Evert OWNED Martina during most of the 70's, and then she had MAJOR trouble with Martina for almost 3 years in the 80's when she couldn't beat her 13 straight times. Chris was then able to not only start beating Martina again in 1985, she also took back the #1 ranking for 1/2 that year as well. Not bad for someone who was already in her 30s at the time. As for her raising her game, she herself has admitted that she was a better player in the 80's than she was when she was #1 in the 70's. She worked on her serve a bit, got much fitter which made her more fleet of foot and allowed her to hit with a bit more power and she also worked on coming to the net a bit as well.
     
    #45
  46. VikingSamurai

    VikingSamurai Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    3,498
    Location:
    F ukuoka Japan, via Atlanta GA, originally Brisban
    Andrew I have always made reference to Margaret Court also, but as usual, these people simply dont want to believe history , and are always trying to change it..

    I always say to everyone. You cant bag Margaret Court for being so good, and thats exactly what it comes down to.

    History is history. Its just sad some people want to change it to suit their particular argument.. Margaret Court was, and always will be, the greatest tennis player to ever live!!

    Dont believe me.. Then go count her name on all 4 trophies!
     
    #46
  47. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    Shriver is in the Hall of Fame, too. Yes, I don't respect her at all. Mean character, no tennis talent.
    Mandlikova had some talent. Was worse than Novotna, though.

    Condi
     
    #47
  48. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418

    Yes, all these mixed doubles titles at AO in the 60ies - awesome ...

    Condi
     
    #48
  49. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    948
    This is laughable. No offense to Jana, who was a wonderful player. But Hana would've beaten her every day all week and twice on Sunday. Not that you would care to know why. But it has everything to do with the fact that Hana was much more versatile in the backcourt, especially off the backhand side, including a topspin backhand that was as good as her slice backhand. Because of her largely absent topspin or flat backhand, Jana was too easily attackable. Which is why she had so little success against Martina who was well past her prime in the 90's.

    You disgrace Steffi. You disgrace her rivals who earned her respect and should've earned yours. And you disgrace players like Aranxta, Gaby, and Jana when you use them for your Steffi-worship and go around saying that they were better players than Chris and Hana.

    The amazing thing about you, Calimero, is that if Steffi knew you, she'd be disgusted by you and your militant willful ignorance. Kind of like she's digusted by Gunter Parche. Steffi's far too decent for you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2007
    #49
  50. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    By telling the truth about Hana Mandlikova?
    Please explain.

    BTW, Mandlikova won 514 and lost 181 matches.
    Novotna was 526-208.
    Almost the same - but Jana didn't play in an era where Jaeger and Shriver types could get to #3 and #4 ....

    Condi
     
    #50

Share This Page