Until you play to 4.5 level you cannot understand the sport of tennis fully

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by MurrayMyInspiration, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Plus 1 again. This is a dumb thread.

    You have MMI with his sweeping generalizations and then other posters who don't know how to use the greater than and less than signs (unless their trolling, can't tell these days)

    A top D1 college player could say that you don't know tennis until you've played at that level and this way of thinking could obviously hold up until the top levels.

    I watched the number one guy from the University of Denver (D1 school) play an open tournament here and I must say, it's a different game than 4.5. But that's just how tennis works.

    I think as someone has already mentioned that Nick bollettieri wasn't all that great of a player but you'd be dumb if you thought he didn't understand the game
     
    #51
  2. pug

    pug Semi-Pro

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    And you wonder why you can't get people to take lessons from you? That and the arrogance of your first post would turn me away.
     
    #52
  3. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    LOL, yes. Between Murray and Tennisean, the IQ of this place is plummeting quickly.
     
    #53
  4. GoaLaSSo

    GoaLaSSo Semi-Pro

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    The op could have said this in a much friendlier way...

    I think understand what he is trying to say. At 4.5, you start getting more pro-like points involving different strategies. You see less mistakes, and there are not as many points that are won off of a failure of execution.
     
    #54
  5. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    This is true of moving up and getting better at any level. What OP is saying is that all players worse than him aren't playing "real tennis", which is just setting an arbitrary line that is more arrogant and self-serving than anything else.
     
    #55
  6. It is mere conicidence that I am 5.0 when the cut off I described as real tennis is at the 4.5 level.

    Below 4.5 is a different sport, with different strokes and completely different tactics.

    4.5 is when players begin to actually play a sport that resembles the pro game
     
    #56
  7. andreh

    andreh Professional

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    ^^ This.

    OP + numerous other troll posts earns MMI a place on the ignore list (with Tennisean).
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
    #57
  8. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Only because you like to fancy yourself playing something that "resembles the pro game" when in fact, you do not. If you ask a futures type player (i.e. 6.0 if NTRP mattered at that level), they might say the same thing about 5.5 that you are saying about 4.5.
     
    #58
  9. kanulondon

    kanulondon Rookie

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    +1

    Sorry MMI this thread is garbage / trolling at best and at worst offensive

    KL
     
    #59
  10. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Exactly ! I would love to see a video of MMI and his awesome 5.0 game. The top D1 player I saw play would say the same about anyone lower than him.

    Again, garbage thread in my opinion
     
    #60
  11. dknotty

    dknotty Semi-Pro

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    For the OP

    [​IMG]

    This is a stupid thread, indicative of a stupid poster.
     
    #61
  12. Chotobaka

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    Spot on. Excellent points -- not often taken into consideration. The OP's idiocy doesn't even warrant a serious comment.
     
    #62
  13. Chotobaka

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    Wilander was no slouch either -- 7 Grand Slam singles titles.
     
    #63
  14. goober

    goober Legend

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    Hmm that explains it. When I had a 4.5 rating I had a true understanding of tennis. When I got bumped down to 4.0 my understanding evaporated. I now can only understand dinking, hacking and lobs. Life is so unfair.
     
    #64
  15. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I think Nick Bollettieri said he has been over 3.5 ever....

    I think he has a pretty good grasp of the game...
     
    #65
  16. anubis

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    I don't think the game is terribly different between a 3.0 and a 5.0. The only minor differences are @ the 5.0 level, the game is faster and the rallies are longer. But there's plenty of errors, mistakes, and screaming. Lots of screaming.

    Contrast that to chess. My chess UCF chess rating is 800, which means I know that pawns move forward, that's about it. 800 is like a 1.5 in tennis. The difference between me and someone with a UCF of 1600 is HUGE. That is a COMPLETELY different game, in every sense of the word. A 1600 plays with almost no errors And the difference between a 1600 and a 2400, is that both games are played virtually error-free, except the 2400 knows how to end the game with less moves, and make it look beautiful at the same time.
     
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  17. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    It is substantially different actually.
     
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  18. [​IMG]
     
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  19. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Are there breakpoints where the game is qualitatively different than at lower levels - not just less errors, more winners, higher ball speed, etc.?
    I would say there is, and I would say the difference is between those who trained seriously as juniors (with extremely few exceptions) and developed high-level technique and those that did not.
    Is a challenger level player playing the same game as a top 20 player? Yes, it is a quantitative difference and on occasion the challenger player may actually win. Similarly, for futures and Open and 5.5 and down to 5.0 to some extent as the players get older. More practice time, better conditioning, being on a hot streak, healing injuries, can make a difference in level. [Let's call these an Educated Player]
    A player who (almost always) starts as an adult, works their way up to 3.5, 4.0, etc. can get to be a pretty good player to 4.5 in some instances and may be able to beat a "falling" (as LeeD would say) Educated Player. There is a qualitative difference in their strokes, how they play the game, and how they perceive the game.
     
    #69
  20. Dimcorner

    Dimcorner Professional

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    I wouldn't go as far as calling sub 4.5 "not real tennis". It's played with the same understanding of rules and quite a few at the high 3.5-4.0 level have and understanding of the game. The difference is that they have limits to what they can consistently execute. They might know basic tactics and setups but at that level they need to improve consistency before they begin to try more complex strategies.

    You can blast balls at them and they might know what they are SUPPOSED to do but just can't execute it so they default to a safe bunt play or something.

    Yes I'm a 3.0 but I'm pretty good in badminton and I see it all the time. I think it's actually worse there because you have even less time to react. They know what they are supposed to do but they can't execute because they just react and think they have no time.

    As for baseball and softball, all I remember is a Sports Science episode where a guy pitched a 95mph fast ball at a thick glass force plate vs Jennie Finch pitch. And that's a girl pitching...

    http://youtu.be/_de3HJvO-N8

    Apparently because they stand closer you actually have LESS time to hit the softball!
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
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  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Great reaction above and I guess you can see how the thread has pretty much proven your post in a way. Without knowing you and your play, you can't expect those below 4.5 to trust your viewpoint or to get the meaning without that trust and them being below 4.5. I expect most above that level will understand your point and how it is a reasonable rule of thumb, even though there are always exceptions to the rule.

    If they think Nick B. really understands tennis, then what can you say. Just because he like Lansdorp has a great understanding of recruiting, motivation, work ethic, and marketing for earning their success, it doesn't mean they have a great understanding on what you are posting about. Nick even admits it in his book, as does Agassi in his book (in ref to Nick) if I remember correctly. It's like assuming Nick is a great business man based coaching several #1 players, while forgetting he broke the academy twice during it's heyday.

    I'm guessing english is not your 1st language, hence the misunderstandings about arrogance. Are you German or around that area? I don't think you intend to insult those below 4.5 so much as to communicate how different the game looks once you have most all of the strokes down solid, with some strengths to play to; and as I mentioned, there are plenty of exceptions on both sides of the line. I've coached several D1 hitters who had quite a limited understanding of anything besides hitting big shots.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
    #71
  22. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I was going to bring up this very same point. I would not be surprised if Rod Cross, the resident tennis physics expert here at TWU, never played higher than a 3.5 or 4.0 level. Rod has more insight into the game than most. John Yandell may have played at a 4.5 level. However, his study and insight to the game is much higher than his level has ever been.
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
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  23. To 5263. I am sure I am using the wrong words but I am trying to say how different the game is once you reach a certain level.

    Tennis below this is not tennis, sure you use racquets and balls and serve and rally but it is like comparing boogieboarding

    [​IMG]

    to surfing

    [​IMG]
     
    #73
  24. pkshooter

    pkshooter Semi-Pro

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    I think there's truth to what he's saying, but he's being. Total @$$ about it
     
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  25. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    You came back from the ICU?
     
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  26. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I believe I get your intent, but...where are you from?
    Not the US, right?
    Britt?
     
    #76
  27. bluegrasser

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    Really - will you sign my tennis ball ?:shock:
     
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  28. Ballinbob

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    Yeah, he is.
     
    #78
  29. willeric

    willeric Rookie

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    Why 4.5?

    You could make a point that a 3.5 has more understanding than an 3.0 and a 4.5 has more understanding than a 4.0. But couldn't you also say than a 4.5 doesn't understand the sport like a 5.5?

    What about a pro player who doesn't have a ranking? Does that mean he doesn't understand sport at all?

    (Yeah, I'm trolling. This post is about as stupid as 'why are tennis balls round'.)
     
    #79
  30. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    Actually, I think tennis and chess and pretty much any open skill sports are pretty similar in this regard. When I started playing tournament chess, I looked up to the 2000s as gods; now, rated 2150, I'm shocked at what a terrible hacker I am, and of course there are those who consider 2400s weak....bottom line, it's turtles all the way down. In tennis, there are guys who'd double bagel me who in turn would get double bagelled by a guy who'd get double bagelled by a guy who etc...now who's going to have the audacity to try to draw the line where real tennis begins?
     
    #80
  31. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    It's true that the game is markedly different at 4.5; but that's also true at 3.5, 5.5, 6.5....what's so magical about 'good club player' level?
     
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  32. sundaypunch

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    MurrayMyInspiration > Tennisean
     
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  33. ProgressoR

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    Disagree :)

    Sean > MMI
     
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  34. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    From personal experience, what I would consider tennis that is fun to watch starts at the 4.0/4.5 level. This is where few people try to end the point in 3 shots from behind the baseline and have no glaring weaknesses to exploit (unless they make up for it with good weapons). Some solid rallies and pretty overt strategic play.
     
    #84
  35. sundaypunch

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    Not when it comes to a basic understanding of mathematical symbols.
     
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  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I may be wrong, but I think there are many more rec players and opportunities for them in the US compared to Germany, so it creates a more dynamic situation for pro employment. I think that the USPTA certification requires a 4.0 level apart from certification exams, but it is not 4.5, that was my point.
     
    #86
  37. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Oh yeah , Bud Collins is another good example as another poster pointed out.
     
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  38. Avles

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    Are you being serious here? There are gigantic qualitative differences between 3.0 and 5.0 play. To take one example, an overhead smash is a likely winner for a 5.0, and a likely error for a 3.0. To take another, a 5.0 has the directional control necessary to take control of points, run opponents around, wrong-foot, attack the backhand consistently, etc. Attempts to dictate in this way at the 3.0 level will very often result in errors. One more example, a 5.0 expects to hold serve the majority of the time. At 3.0 it's extremely common to hold serve less than 50% of the time, and the service advantage is largely nonexistent. These are big differences I think!

    That doesn't mean that there's a magic cutoff point where 'real tennis' starts as the OP suggests. But it's equally wrong to say that the game is generally similar at these vastly different levels...


    This is also totally wrong with respect to chess. A 1600 does not play "virtually error free" chess, not even close. It's just that the other 1600 players are not able to capitalize on suboptimal moves like 2400 players can. Moves that seem just fine to you (and to 1600 players) are going to look like glaring errors to a grandmaster, because grandmasters see and understand the game in different ways.

    Same thing in tennis-- a "solid rally ball" at the 3.0 level may be an absolute meatball for a 5.0. Both games change significantly as the level of play increases.
     
    #88
  39. MomentumGT

    MomentumGT Semi-Pro

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    Don't compare things you know utterly nothing about. This is considered "boogieboarding" as well.

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  40. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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  41. Fed Kennedy

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    4.5 is the Zenith of human civilization
     
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  42. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    do the 4.5 on here really know what its like to play someone who is just content with getting balls back to 1 side of the court for the entire set?
     
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  43. Tennisean

    Tennisean Rookie

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    Does that mean he's greater or lesser?:)
     
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  44. Tennisean

    Tennisean Rookie

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    True.

    No one wants to watch a couple of hacks go at it.
     
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  45. Tennisean

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    Not if they're lucky.
     
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  46. Tennisean

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    #96
  47. Tennisean

    Tennisean Rookie

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    It's the zenith of the tennis skills mountain, that's for sure.

    If you can make over that hump, it's all good.
     
    #97
  48. Tennisean

    Tennisean Rookie

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    Because it's about the midway point between being a hack and a pro, that would be my guess.
     
    #98
  49. Frank Silbermann

    Frank Silbermann Professional

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    I would say that you really do not understand the sport of tennis until you've played on bad grass using wooden racquets.
     
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  50. anubis

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    You're talking about mechanics. I never said there aren't any differences in mechanics between 3.0 and 5.0 tennis -- there most certainly are. 5.0s do everything better than 3.0s. I said the game is the same. The object of the game, how you win. You hit as deep as you can, as reliably as you can. Don't gift away any points. Don't hit within the service line. Don't make unforced errors. Don't double fault.

    All of that is the same. 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 tennis isn't "magical". A lot of TT folks here think its the end all and be all of tennis mastery. They give it WAY too much credit. This is just rec tennis, we are all amateurs. There's not crazy point construction going on in the minds of us rec players.

    The only thing that separates low level from high level players are mechanics. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

    Hitting the ball past the service line four times in a row will earn you a point almost every time, whether you're a 3.0 or a 5.0. There's no magic fairy dust.

    /end rant
     

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