US Juniors needs MORE Nat'l and advanced experiences not less

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by 10s4US, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps you should call them TennisRecruiting.net National Showcases highlighting the fact that the results count toward one's TR.net rating/ranking.

    Otherwise, non-USTA sanctioned tournaments seem to be a hard sell for many juniors who are so concerned about their rankings.
     
  2. TCF

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  3. Tennishacker

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    TCF, I'm glad that you keep stressing the importance of how the new changes affect the generation of players to come in America.

    Theses changes, along with the influx of foreign players to college tennis, will adversely affect the future of American tennis.

    Junior nat'l tournaments enabled my family to visit many, many, states that if not for the tournaments, we would never have visit.
     
  4. Freak4tennis

    Freak4tennis Guest

    I have been a big fan of the old Star system, and TRN's system (given accurate data feeds).

    I think you have a very good idea and in my opinion, if marketed properly whether within the context of sanctioned or non sanctioned will be very successful if in context of a circuit or grand prix. All the best.
     
  5. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    These changes are not good for the top 50 players. My son would always end up in the top 50 by the time he aged out but it was a struggle each time he aged up. When he reached around 50 in his class he could easily beat all but the top couple from the younger group. How exactly will kids age up from one class to another? This is where the PD guys have the power with wild cards. I wonder if this will be enough.

    There is one piece of data missing from the discussion and I don’t know how to get it. Of the top kids in each division, even the top 50, how many of them are second year? I hope someone at the USTA has looked at this and understands how to develop players when they only qualify to play nationally every other year. It sounds like a problem to me. I wish I had more faith the USTA knew what it was doing.
     
  6. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    I think TCF came up with a great term - "middle class players". For us Summer Supernationals were the highlight and the goal of the whole tennis year. We never did Spring or Winter until G16. These big tournaments definitely motivate middle class to become upper-middle class.
    Everything that was discussed on the last few pages - these are workarounds to deal with the upcoming changes. As Lew Brewer put it himself - "recruiting coaches need to be creative" So now coaches need to be creative, players need to be creative and even Dallas now needs to be creative too. Why they are implementing the system where almost all participants have to be creative is beyond me.
    If they are so bent on cutting the draws of Summer Supernationals to 128 why not conduct a L3 tournament with another 128 participants at the same time (and possibly at the same location for BG16-18) to simplify recruiting. Why only 128 players per age group can play during the whole month of August ( I am not even counting poor BG12 here)? Do something for the rest of the players during the Winter break. I am sure somebody will step in and fill the demand with (pricey) tournaments and showcases but maybe USTA itself can just better align National schedule with their stated goals.
     
  7. 10s4US

    10s4US New User

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    Awesome
    Players, coaches will turn out
    What age divisions will they have?
    Both genders?
    What is on slate for 2013?
     
  8. ClarkC

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    Here is a simple answer. If a coach has overseas connections who have proven trustworthy in the past (i.e. they don't hype a player who is not good enough to play for that coach), then basically no effort is expended by the coach to recruit that player. However, there is still a downside. No one is perfect on talent evaluation. DVDs don't tell the whole story. Even an overseas contact who does not over-hype will make a mistake once in a while. When that happens, the coach will be frustrated that he took someone else's word for it too much. (Believe me, these coaches do not really see the players play all that much. They cannot go overseas for many recruiting trips at most schools, and if they do, it is hard to judge how good player A is when he plays against player B when you don't know either player.) ITF rankings are notoriously unreliable indicators for a variety of reasons.

    So, there is some advantage to seeing players in person within the U.S.A., where you have an idea what TRN ratings mean, you have an idea how good the opponent is, etc. When it gets harder to do this, the alternative just got more competitive as an alternative.

    Very short answer: When plan A (recruiting trips to domestic tourneys) gets harder, and plan B (make offers to foreign recruits) stays the same, the existing balance has changed somewhat in favor of plan B. There is a balance of foreign vs. domestic right now, and nothing got worse about the foreign option due to USTA actions. How much change in the balance? Who knows.
     
  9. 10s4US

    10s4US New User

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    High Tech,
    Arent you the one with the petition for USTA to Amend the 2014 Changes?

    What has been the USTA's response to the petition?

    Was there a presentation at the US OPEN meeting?

    USTA reaction there or otherwise?

    In consideration of further networking effective opposition to 2014 Changes and unresponsiveness of USTA to listen to or consider amendments

    I was looking at The NCAA Committees responsiveness to the opposition to its recommendations, Its consideration rejecting of recommendations all in stark contrast to USTA unresponsiveness to overwhelming opposition by its constituency served.
    I found it very ironic that the USTA sent a letter opposing the NCAA recommendations

    "USTA Statement on Proposed NCAA Changes to Collegiate Tennis The USTA is aware of the proposed format changes being made by the NCAA Division I Men’s and Women’s Tennis Committee to the NCAA Division I Men’s and Women’s Tennis Championships. Working with the Intercollegiate Tennis Association (ITA), the USTA is preparing a joint opposition letter to these changes. The letter will be distributed to the committee in advance of its Monday, August 20th meeting."-College News TRN

    It would be interesting if The NCAA, the ITA, and ITA coaches Association
    if there is one) would take a position writing a letter to suggest reconsidering and amending the USTA 2014 Natl Jr changes???
     
  10. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    I am not sure there is a market for these tournaments until 2014, assuming the changes go through as planned. It may even take until 2015. I think many people are in denial, are just reading the USTA propaganda and don't have a real handle on the magnitude of the changes, and/or are confident their player will not be effected. When reality sets in in 2014, people will start considering alternatives. I expect the ITF will be looking at scheduling more tournaments too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  11. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    Hi - need to clarify. Yes, we saw and forwarded the petition to 3000 tennis enthusiasts as requested by one of our customers but - this is my opinion only - I don't think there is any point whatsoever to that petition (we haven't even signed it) because it is a done deal. Again, this is MY opinion and there may have been meetings, etc-I know nothing about them-but the changes are coming and there's virtually nothing we can do about them. HIGH-TECH TENNIS is working to expand beyond tournaments, perhaps beyond tennis, and we're keeping a close eye on national tournaments that our friends at Tennis Recruiting is working to develop...but the changes are definitely coming and we don't have to like them (and we DON'T) :( but we do have to accept them. Lots and lots of parents are gonna be blindsided...what a shame for junior tennis.
     
  12. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I was speaking to a college coach who is a friend of mine, and who I can be straight forward with.
    He is a coach of a mid level D1, ok academics, ok location.
    His team is about 1/3 Americans and 2/3 Foreigners.

    When I asked him why the team couldn't be more American ( private btw),
    he countered with the fact that he is doing a better job than a lot of other coaches who are recruiting all foreign.
    Yes, he deflected the question.

    His thoughts on a coach in his position who recruited all foreign were that they were "lazy".
    That it just involved emails with recruiters abroad, and no contact with parents.
    He thought he was doing a better job as he travelled to some of the big national tournaments and would watch the matches
    which he thought was more important than TRN rankings as the ranking never showed if you went deep into a national tournament, which is why he said coaches still looked at USTA rankings.

    Now, he didn't know about the cuts to the tournaments in 2014, and when I told him that all was left was two during the summer with 128 draw, he said that hurt him as he wasn't looking for the best American kids as they weren't interested in his school
    ( academics and so-so location, location hurt more than academics he thought).

    So, I think the 2014 changes will turn the tide to more foreigners,
    and really dislike that Lew Brenner is saying college coaches have to be creative, when it sounds like some coaches are lazy.
    Besides, seeing a state high school championship, most of the smaller schools don't have budgets to fly around our country.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  13. TCF

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  14. db10s

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    Yep, the Nike Junior Tour would be something I would play..... If I got USTA ranking points from it.
     
  15. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    There are many reasons that foreigners are being recruited, as has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere.

    It is still more expensive and inconvenient to travel overseas than to a domestic sectional/regional. If lots of coaches are in the habit of offering to "mail-order recruits" overseas just because that is less expensive and inconvenient, I have no doubt that a domestic mail-order recruit business will spring up.

    I don't know which way the trend for foreign recruitment will go. But I think it will have more to do with the talent, attitude and willingness to play at certain schools.......between domestic and foreign student-athletes respectively.......than it will with the new USTA National-TRN National Showcase regime
     
  16. 10s4US

    10s4US New User

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    If you didnt create the petition Amend the 2014 who did?
    Unless your "customer" prefers anonimity?.....
    While you mention here you didnt sign it you clearly support the spirit of it and forwarded it and added to it and piggybacked marketed it with media links and video links
    With Pat Mac reaction to USTA disapproval of changes

    There is clearly a point to the petition
    In FACT it is a mandate and voice the USTA can not deny
    It documents and mandates opposition to the 2014 changes

    While it is not change specific it illuminates and addresses a major flaw and need in the USTA JR policy and structure process to recognize and follow the
    real wishes of the membership and affiliates served and serving.
    Basic old feedback and input.

    Was it ever presented formally at US Open meeting?

    How are amendments to changes brought forth to Natl Jr Committee and delegates for consideration?
     
  17. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    10S4US---I didn't create the petition, I don't know who did, the customer who asked us to forward it did so because they want to notify other parents (a huge majority of whom are presently unaware) and they know we have a large distribution of customers. I forwarded it as requested and I agree 100000% that the changes will hurt junior tennis but I can't remember signing it because IN MY OPINION there is no point. I don't know a single thing about whether meetings are or have been held and I am beyond tired of fighting this unwinnable war since we have been trying our best to keep people informed and to get people to speak out and speak up for junior tennis since last MARCH!!!
    I understand you may be new to this forum but please understand that we have been and continue to be strongly opposed to the changes. However, there appears to be NOTHING that anyone can do to prevent them from taking effect. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT!
     
  18. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    So you in favor of refs making more than the winner at futures and challengers:oops:
     
  19. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    I agree with gameboy, and my kid would be greatly affected by these changes, thanks to USTA this crazy parent will not tour the country chancing points,
     
  20. TCF

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  21. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Doesn't the proposed TRN National Showcase series satisfy the desire for family trips?
     
  22. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    No way to know, they don't exist yet. No guarantee they ever will, or if they do come to be, will be successful, Dallas's best intentions notwithstanding. At this point, he, and other entrepreneurs, see that USTA is walking away from a market it has served and creating potential vacuum, they are looking to fill it, but no guarantees on how it pans out.
     
  23. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    Jr ITF should fill the desire for family trips
     
  24. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    As usual, completely agree with you on this, Aloha:

    At this point, he, and other entrepreneurs, see that USTA is walking away from a market it has served and creating potential vacuum, they are looking to fill it, but no guarantees on how it pans out.
     
  25. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Thats fine for 16's and 18's. In fact, I think ITF could be one of the organizations that steps up an try to fill the void created by the changes , but these events are very different from the 12' and 14's events.

    But please see my post earlier in the thread about 12' and 14's :


    Another thing to consider, which I don't think has been discussed, is that the main 12 and 14 national events are very different from the 16 and 18 events, and not just the size of the contestants. They are compass draws, kids will play a minimum of four matches, most play six. For kids this age, its a huge adventure, a leaning experience, and that vast majority of them will go home with a positive tennis experience : some wins, some losses, a feeling that they did great, or a realization that they have to work harder, but motivated nonetheless. Its a reward for all the hard work. Its much better for the kids to spend a week at these tournaments then spending thousands of dollars to go to <fill in name of tennis academy here> for week, and they will get as much out of it if not more.
     
  26. TCF

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  27. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    ^^^^This is a Lose-Lose situation for USTA.

    "Middle class players" who fuel the economy of tennis will have their fire put out by 2014.
    These are players that feed high-performance training, coaches, clubs, court time fee, racquets, strings, tournament fees, referees, etc all around the US.

    Many of these players might go different pathway (ITF, private national showcases) to achieve their long term goals.

    Many will succumb to the lure of the other sports.
    What I observed for the past 5 years at the academy where my kids train, they routinely lose several good players to other sports by middle school years.......football, baseball, cheerleading, cross-country, dance, gymnastics, etc.
    Many of the dancers, cheerleaders, gymnasts we know had already gone to countless numbers of national competitions by 6th, 7th grades.
    No....they're not that super talented but there are so many national venues in other sports.
    After a 2-3 years of gymnastics or cheerleading.... Yep....You go Nationals, Girls!
    Not true for tennis even with the current schedule.
     
  28. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    -------------------
     
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  29. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I am glad the current tennis regime is not organized this way, and I hope USTA or TRN-National Showcase, or whatever, does not copy it.

    I know that 2 or 3 years you go to Nationals is not the case for wrestling, baseball, football, track, swimming, basketball, soccer and many others.

    USTA, please do not follow the gymnastics or cheerleading example that has been posted here
     
  30. TCF

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  31. TCF

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  32. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    ya, take away analyzing all the details for a minute and it's just sad really.
     
  33. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    I really get that you are generally opposed to kids traveling for sports, unless they are very, very, exceptional.

    But, look, even the kids in the band get to go on trips. Whether it be sports, drama, music, dance, or the math club, or the spelling bee, one of the returns they get for their investment, dedication to their passion, is an opportunity to take it to the next level.

    I think USTA thinks that removing the 'opportunity' to travel makes Tennis more attractive to new comers;I think they are wrong, most particularly as it relates to attracting elite athletes, which is their true objective.

    I put opportunity in quotes becuase there seems to be a difference of opinion between people on both sides of this discussion as to whether travel is an opportunity, or an obligation. To date, I have not received the name and address of the person with the gun who is forcing people to go to tournaments they don't want to go to. You yourself said your player only went to a small number of national events. Were you forced to go ? I know it didn't turn out for you the way you hoped it might, but you found that out for yourself. Many people are just hoping for the same opportunity you had.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  34. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    So the future of American jr tennis and this whole debat is about several hundred 12-13 year old "middle class player" and their quest to have a positive and fun tennis experience. :neutral:
     
  35. TCF

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  36. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    You are so wrong. Never said that. Never suggested that. Never hinted that.

    Its contrary to personal history I have posted here about tennis, baseball and other sports

    That would be kind of a goofy thing for anyone to think or say, so I am concluding I am being baited or trolled.

    Will resist further response and hope the thread can get back to the substance that others are posting..........rather than personal, strange attempts at mind-reading.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  37. TCF

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  38. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I deferred to your original point that there are families who have, for generations, had it as a major objective to train their progeny for national tournaments, and to travel to national tournaments.........and if these opportunities are reduced, that a bulwark tennis constituency might be disappointed or even alienated.

    I've been to a few nationals and haven't seen the big family entourages as something that is prevalent. In many cases, to reduce cost, there was one parent, or a coach taking care of multiple students. So, I am not sure this is a mass phenomenon involving countless kids and other onlookers at national tournaments.

    Travel in sports is fine. Certain family members and I have traveled in-state, regionally and nationally with high school teams, travel teams (referring to Zonals in the tennis context here) and individually. So we certainly don't think that is a problem or is something to be "against"

    We didn't consider it an entitlement for one kid to get invited to a National tennis tournament any more that we considered it an entitlement for the other kid to be on a team that went to the Cal Ripken World Series or the USA Baseball championship tournament, or the Arizona Fall Classic (this one is coming up next month).

    I think there can be debates about how big national tennis draws should be or how many teams can go to Ripken, or the USA Baseball Championship tournament, or the Arizona Fall Classic. But to say that the answer is crucial for the future of the respective sport is something I will need more time to grasp.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  39. TCF

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  40. 10s4US

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    NO.....
    THANK YOU
    The petition serves as a documented mandate, as a voice to amend 2014changes that the USTA can not deny. It is a mandate from the USTA membership and affiliates served and serving to give access and input to the decision making process and structure to the USTA membership and affiliates served and serving where the USTA system does not.
    While Im new loggin /commenting to this forum i am not new to these issues which I have addressed with suggestions and inquiries to USTA since early 2010 catching wind of changes.
    This forum provides an illuminating communication source to inform and network
    As far as a DONE Deal 2011 is DONE, 2012 is on its way yet serves to
    provide evidence/case studies of the changes negative effects of reduced natl opportunities and participation despite the desire for more by players,parents,coaches,directors
    There IS still hope and time to amend changes to 2014 and open up access to participate in input and decision making process by membership served
    by MEDIA blitz, high profile celebrity support the current
    by Understanding and changing the USTA system
    (2 meetings a year, special meetings can be called)
    to be continued...
     
  41. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Never even hinted at it ? Hmm, maybe these posts misled me :

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6906952&postcount=5

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6907132&postcount=129

    Now, maybe I am reading these out of context, but my post was really just my honest summation of what I thought your position was, not a "personal, strange attempts at mind-reading".

    I really don't appreciate that you keep attacking me personally, and then try to switch things and around and complain that I am the one launching personal attacks on you. Please review the thread history: your first post in the thread was a sarcastic, personal attack on me, by you, not the other way around. And I have tried to be nothing but civil to you.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6899039&postcount=39
     
  42. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Here is what you said:

    These are the texts of my posts that you cited to support your conclusion:

    I don't think anyone should have a national pathway unless they are exceptionally good. I realize this puts me in the minority here

    And:

    I am glad the current tennis regime is not organized this way, and I hope USTA or TRN-National Showcase, or whatever, does not copy it. I know that 2 or 3 years you go to Nationals is not the case for wrestling, baseball, football, track, swimming, basketball, soccer and many others. USTA, please do not follow the gymnastics or cheerleading example that has been posted here

    There is no way any reasonable person (sorry if you consider that a personal attack) could read what I wrote into the claim that I am "generally opposed to kids traveling for sports, unless they are very, very exceptional"

    Let others be the judge. I think it would be goofy for anyone to think or say what you incorrectly said I said. You don't want to be called out for tripe like that? Then just stop it.

    Anyway, I fell for the bait.
     
  43. 10s4US

    10s4US New User

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    Petition IS HUGE thanks again

    I was reminded again of the ALREADY reduced opportunities for nat'l play
    'when i was asked by a students parent what tournaments to play to get nat'l points to qualify for a national B16. I had to say all you can do is play locally. Maybe get in a regional 3 an
    The kid just aged up isnt ranked high enough to make 32 Nat open or Winter Nat draw. Playing local designated wins gets you 1 point in Level 5
    2 points in a level 4. We're in a strong section, tough to get semis when more points kick in. The kid is a 5* in TRN !!! who won rounds in B12 Nat Opens,
    B12 Nat Champs. He was a 33-64 player cut out of the B14 Nat opens, never got enough points for Nat Champs.
    The 2011 changes and 2012 point changes already have blind sided 50% of the National play opportunities/participation.
    some of which could blossom into a top player.
    This parent sent me your petition which I forwarded.

    The Petition serves as a documented mandate for US to have input to amend changes

    Now we all await some response from USTA as to amends if any.
     
  44. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    We are still waiting for a response from the USTA if they will listen to the outpouring from coaches, parents and juniors.

    Meanwhile, if it is his first year aging up, he might miss out. Sorry, it definitely hurts junior's development to miss that year.

    But, and I know if you are a coach, you might not want to give this advice as it directly affects your business,
    but I would recommend playing HIGH SCHOOL TENNIS, especially in California.

    Unfortunately, a lot of coaches discourage the kids from doing this as it directly hurts their pocketbook when a boatload of kids go to play high school tournaments instead of coming to their academy.......

    I think it is a huge conflict of interest where I am seeing coaches actively discouraging kids from playing ( for free at high school practice) so they can come to the academy and pay.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  45. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Anyone hear any updated or any modification of the national schedule for 2013, 2014, please post on this board.
     
  46. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I think the big meeting is this week to see if there will be any modifications to the schedule..

    We will all be hit with the changes this summer with a reduction of the 64 to 32 for the July regional which kids have been using to age up.

    And the reduction in Clay and Hard......

    Hope these guys are persuasive.
     

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