USTA Norcal Cheats

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by beststringer, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    There are a few big clubs out here that cheats with self-rated players. The USTA office here laughs at my complaints. Basically, their committees all come from those clubs. Do you have the same problems in your areas? USTA is fun but is full of cheats.
     
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  2. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Here I rarely find consistent cheaters. Occasionally a couple players will poorly self rate, but it is not the same captain every year.

    The middle states appear to be policing this pretty well. This past weekend we were playing at sectionals and there were 2 players DQ'd mid-sectional. Another couple of players were DQ'd before the event began. While players from these other districts might believe there were cheaters in their leagues during the regular season, by the time they advanced to districts and sectionals the offending players had been removed.

    When it was all said and done the best team advanced. They had no self rated players.
     
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  3. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    It's good to know that some other regions are monitoring this. Watch out when you guys play against the Norcal teams with the self-rated players. The Norcal office don't do nothing to enforce the rules on them at all.
     
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  4. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    NorCal is also the home of the infamous 4.0 Team that went to Nationals and used ineligible players and all USTA did was slap them on the wrist, after initially handing out long bans. Until the USTA and Sections decide to do something about the rampant cheating it will continue on until Captains say F'It and start questioning everyone that Self-rates.
     
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  5. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I've played Norcal leagues for several years, first 4.0 then 4.5. In my personal experience I've never come across any blatant cheating. I heard the stories about the infamous Nationals team but that was in a different area. In my area, the captains all know each other, and none of the captains would be willing to soil their reputations with stuff like that. I think that's the key - the real cheating will happen in areas where there are many new captains that don't know each other and are willing to do anything to win, whether in Norcal or anywhere else.

    Now, a few times I have played self-rated players that may have rated too low... in each of these cases I really think it was not a malicious attempt to cheat; but just underestimating how quickly they would get back in the groove after a layoff. And honestly I don't care - I'm in it to get some good matches, and as long as it's not blatant deliberate cheating, if I lose to someone that is maybe really a level higher, so what? Good tennis is good tennis.
     
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  6. mutantducky

    mutantducky Semi-Pro

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    I don't know too much about the 4.0 and below. I know that there were some players who had been playing 5.0 in the past and even had winning or even records but somehow got bumped down to 4.5. But of course the team with the 5.0 players ended up losing in the playoffs. :twisted: Still that team which was stacked last year as well got whipped by another team in sectionals which had even more 5.0 guys. Other than that things have been fine though.
     
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  7. dafox

    dafox Rookie

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    What are the teams that you are calling out in Nor Cal? I know some of the 4.5 guys at the sectionals this weekend and they are VERY strong and honest. I think cheating is more evident at the 3.0/3.5 levels???
     
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  8. decades

    decades Guest

    if you go in assuming that in your 4.0 league you will mostly playing 4.5 and 5.0 players, your expectations will be geared correctly and you won't be surprised disappointed or angry about it.
     
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  9. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    We don't need to argue with perceptions. Just logon to Norcal's USTA's site and see all the teams that are going to the playoffs, districts, and etc. See how many "self-rated" players they have and how many matches those self-rated players have won. It's all there. No need to argue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
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  10. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    That's an interesting idea. So following your suggestion, I looked at the 4.5 teams playing sectionals this weekend (since I know many of these guys), and here's what I found:

    Fremont: 12 players participated in sectionals (so far). NONE are self rated.
    Millbrae: 9 players in sectionals. NONE self rated.
    Broadstone: 9 players in sectionals. NONE self rated.
    Foster City: 10 players in sectionals. 1 self rated.
    Foothills: 10 players in sectionals. NONE self rated.

    Since they are competing in sectionals, its fair to say that these are the best teams in Norcal, and in total, there is exactly 1 out of 50 self rated players.

    So as you said - no need to argue. When it comes to teams at the 4.5 level, which is what I previously posted about, you are clearly wrong.

    PS. I posted actual team names since this is freely available info.
     
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  11. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    2009 Adult League Mens 4.5 CUESTA TC M4.5C had 2 self-rated players and their records were 14 - 0. They won Sectional S-300 3-0.

    There are a lot more cheating at 4.0 and lower. Agreed.

    I am just telling the other region's players that if they ever face a Norcal team in the nationals, they should be aware that Norcal teams cheat with self-rated players and their Norcal offices condone this type of behaviours.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
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  12. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Honestly I think you have sour grapes for some reason. Did your team get knocked out by a team that you suspect was cheating?

    You are making it seem much worse than it is, and the data does not support your claim. You ignore the 2010 sectionals info I posted and instead you're complaining about a team in 2009. Aren't you a year too late?

    But ok, since you bring it up, let's look at the 2009 Cuesta team. Yes, they had 2 self-rated players. Out of a roster of 22! One of the self-rated players did not play AT ALL post season. The other one played, but not in sectionals (which this team won, as you pointed out). None of the 10 players who actually played at sectionals was self rated.

    This to me does not look like a team trying to cheat. You're own example doesn't even back up your point.

    Sorry I don't mean to make this personal but I don't like people complaining about 'rampant cheating' just because they lost or something. And you are trying to diminish the achievement of every Norcal team that makes it to Nationals.
     
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  13. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    Cheating is rampant.
     
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  14. max8176

    max8176 Rookie

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    It's always convenient for people to leave out important evidence to make their own point more attractive.

    Are you from OP?
     
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  15. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    By OP you mean Orange Park? No, I'm in the east bay. My team didn't even make playoffs, but I just don't like to see successful teams being bashed and assumed to be cheaters just because they did well.
     
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  16. Delano

    Delano Rookie

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    On a related note, I don't like to see unsuccessful teams being bashed and assumed to be cheaters because they play from the same public park or club that is currently or was at one time the home base of notorious sandbaggers/cheaters/etc.

    I actually get a lot of this. Oh, you play for <welllet'sjustgoaheadandleaveitunspoken>? Man, I hate playing those guys, bunch of sandbaggers.

    Uh, who? Dude, we haven't had a winning season in three years. Do you think the other team's cheatin' ways seep into the court and slowly enter the blood stream of all who set foot upon it through osmosis?
     
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  17. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    Big clubs usually have 3 types of teams:

    1. Cheaters
    2. Wanna be's
    3. Friends
     
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  18. dafox

    dafox Rookie

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    LOL...yes so very true....that's why you should only play tourneys...the true test of a tennis player...you can't pass the buck to someone else.
     
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  19. ebrainsoft

    ebrainsoft Rookie

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    I've been playing Nor Cal, USTA for several years and I agree it's full of cheaters and sand baggers. I'm, admittedly, a sand bagger but in Nor Cal, sand bagging is more for survival than cheating!
     
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  20. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    very well put!!!
     
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  21. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    No sandbaggers = no tennis

    No tennis = :(
     
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  22. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    True on all counts!
     
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  23. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    We have found The Honest Man on TW! That virgin in the maternity ward can't be far away... If you're ever in So Cal I'll buy you an Adult Beverage. I just won't play you for money... :)

    That's sad. But probably true. Too many guys who are 'coming back to the game' or 'coming back from a near death injury' - and want to have a solid winning record. Instead of just practicing until they regain their form. And the USTA is more than happy to take their money and hose the people who don't want to sandbag.
     
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  24. armstrong

    armstrong New User

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    I have to say, I played this past weekend in 4.5 NorCal sectionals and disagree with the OP. Some players are stronger than others, and those players will get bumped. I found all the matches to be competitive.
     
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  25. djnemo

    djnemo Rookie

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    I play Norcal USTA, and I have no problem with sandbaggers as long as they don't throw games. I expect my opponent to try to win every point, and if they lose even one game on purpose then I consider that to be cheating and poor character. As long as sandbaggers try to win at all times, they will eventually be bumped...

    (Players throw games in Norcal all the time, including my some of my friends)
     
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  26. beststringer

    beststringer Rookie

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    true, there was one match I saw where the sandbagger lost the first set 0-6, and came back to win 6-2, 6-1. It's so funny because the first set loss was so fake.
     
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  27. max8176

    max8176 Rookie

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    Yeah, I thought you are from Orange Park.
     
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  28. diadorakuerten

    diadorakuerten Rookie

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    I witnessed some cheating at the 5.5 and 5.0 levels but not 4.5. Brad Weston, who played on the tour and was as high as 583 in Singles and 303 in Dubs ATP is rated a 5.5. He lost to Jan-Michael Gambill 7-6 6-3 this year. How is Weston a 5.5??

    Same thing was Chris Harrison (Weston's club mate) who was rated a 4.5 at the beginning of the season and is now a 5.0. He won a set off Brad Weston in singles. How is he a 5.0??

    Tyler Browne, who played at Cal is rated 5.5. He won the Moraga Open this year, beating Weston in the finals in straight sets, Motevassel (ex top 200 ATP) in straights, etc. This guy is no 5.5.

    When you win countless Open tournaments you should be rated at least 6.0. Tyler Browne won 9 Open tournaments (singles and doubles), Brad Weston won 36 Open tournaments. Greg Lee won 23 Open tournaments and is also a 5.5.

    I think the USTA should redo the whole ranking system. It is very poor compared to other countries. For example, in France, you can calculate the number of points you have and you know how many rated players you need to beat in order to access to the next ranking. Here, you have no idea what your rating will be the following year. It's kind of a lottery. The whole rating system needs to be revised. It makes no sense to me.
     
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  29. tennis4josh

    tennis4josh Rookie

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    completely agree with everything you said. I would rather fight and loose against a better opponent than win easily.

    The people who claim that there is rampant cheating are basically sore losers and I have come across quite a few of them playing in norcal. Generally when someone says sandbagger people think of a self rated player, but thats not right. In my club we get several first time players every year, and they make genuine attempt to self rate correctly. Some of them advance much quicker than rest and by end of the year fit the description of a sand bagger. But that's just a case of underestimating one's ability. The intent is not to cheat. And this happens with may be 1 or at the most 2 players in a group of 15-20.

    In my opinion cheating is when:
    1. Former college players self rate themselves as low as 3.5
    2. People appeal their rating down and play #1 single's at the new lower level and win easily.
    3. People who purposely tank matches because they don't want to get bumped up. This happens a lot at 4.0 level. Very few folks can retain the fitness to compete at 4.5 and above and want to stay at 4.0 forever.

    I am not implying that everything is kosher in norcal and no one cheats. But I don't think "rampant cheating" is the way I would describe it. In fact its far from that. Every season I see may be like 1 or 2 self rated players who seem better than the level they are playing at.

    Interestingly you almost never hear any one complain about sand baggers in the local league. Then once you advance to districts people start whispering about self rated players and at sectionals you get accused of cheating.

    Norcal sectionals is a joke. There is a club which is the only tennis facility in the whole area . Typically they have 2 teams from the same club who play like 7-8 times against each other and one of them almost always reaches the sectionals. While other teams like those from the SF bay area overcome stiff competition to reach sectionals and in the process improve a lot. So this lucky team never wins at sectionals and finds solace in calling their opponents cheaters.
     
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  30. tennis4josh

    tennis4josh Rookie

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    Duplicate Post..
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
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  31. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    I expect that norcal is a lot like everywhere else. Yes, there are people that self-rate too low. Yes, there are people that do everything they can not to get bumped up. Yes, there are captains that tell their players to throw games/sets to avoid DQs. I've played in norcal for years and have personally seen all of the above. I'd be stunned if every section didn't have plenty of the same issues.

    At the same time, the vast majority of players and teams are focused on playing well, improving their game, having fun, and meeting/playing new people. I have to admit that I love seeing these teams do well at the expense of a team that is pulling out all the stops to make it to sectionals.
     
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  32. XFactorer

    XFactorer Hall of Fame

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    How can we find out if an opponent is a self-rated or computer/benchmarked/other 4.0 player? I don't see it on the regular league section when you can do an over-view of the team on TennisLink
     
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  33. cak

    cak Professional

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    Norcal has its own, better version of tennis link. Ratings always show up with their C/S/B/M designations.
     
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  34. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    In my town we have an online form you can anonymously fill out to report sandbaggers to the Assembly Council of Competitive Order (ACCO).
     
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  35. jonnyjack

    jonnyjack Rookie

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    #35
  36. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

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    It makes perfect sense to me. If the USTA rated the players you mentioned appropriately at 6.0, they're basically limiting those guys to playing Open tournaments. By rating them at 5.5, the USTA is giving them the opportunity to play USTA Leagues and NTRP tournaments, and they're giving themselves the opportunity to get more money out of those guys.
     
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  37. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    Funny the northern 4.5 team I was on played this NorCal team in the finals last year in Vegas. I didn't witness any blatant cheating, but I did notice that their #1 doubles team was better than any I'd seen previously at 4.5 and I've been playing 4.5 USTA for over 15 years. I think they waxed our team 6-0,6-1.

    I will say that throughout the whole national tournament we had a bunch of nailbiter matches that could have gone either way in the win/loss department. Due to a medical appeal, we were able to get a former D1 player at Madison (I think he played #5 or #6 in the early 2000's) on our team. He had some back problems from a bad car accident, but it was hard to tell from watching him play. I guess he did have his back worked on after every match. BTW, the USTA double bumped him from 4.5 to 5.5 afterwards.
     
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  38. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    The USTA should abolish 5.5 and just go from 5.0 to Open.
     
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  39. GucciRogue

    GucciRogue New User

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    Norcal USTA is a joke. Got suspended for 3 months. Hope I never get the urge to play league again.
     
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  40. CrispyFritters

    CrispyFritters Rookie

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    The council name sounds like it's straight out of Harry Potter. The Assembly Council of Competitive Order shall gather at Diagon Alley.
     
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  41. benz1

    benz1 New User

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    yeah i agree with this
     
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  42. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol:
     
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  43. dafox

    dafox Rookie

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    Nor Cal Savages .....LOL
     
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  44. Thunderbrat

    Thunderbrat New User

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    The Infamous Nor Cal 4.0 Team

    That was nationals in Hawaii a few years back. They ran through everyone until an official got a call from a player on another Norcal 4.0 team that said he was supprised how good one of the players on a certain team was doing considering he just saw him at a grocery store in Cali. The officials wouldn't investigate until about four team captains (mine included) protested. They asked the Norcal team for photo ids before the final. Their top two players said they didn't bring them and didn't even have them in their hotel. (Pretty hard to fly to Hawaii without soime sort of id.) Turns out they were pros who had played futures/challengers in South America. Norcal was allowed to play in the final anyway albeit without the imposters. They lost to a Texas team we took second to in pool play. The Texas team had two current D2 college players and a nationally ranked junior. The junior bagled our No.1 singles player even though his captain spent the entire second set hand singnaling for him to drop a few games. He would have needed a blind fold to lose a game. Their captain paid for the trip to Hawaii for the junior and his family. The junior made Baylor's team the next year. Pretty good school for a 4.0.

    I've since played lots of 4.5 and now some 5.0 tennis and have yet to see anything as bad as what I saw in 4.0.
     
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  45. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    That's too bad. If anything, I would rather play at a higher level so I could play guys better than me and keep improving. Better than some useless trophy I cheated to get. I play a 4.0 tournament in a couple of weeks, will let you know how it goes.
     
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  46. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    That sounds like the beginning of a good story.
     
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  47. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    What exactly does this get them? Surely bragging rights are no good if you know in your mind that you cheated.
     
    #47
  48. mutantducky

    mutantducky Semi-Pro

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    #48
  49. goober

    goober Legend

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    Well I know this one guy who seems to think the highlight of his tennis life was going to Nationals like 10+ years ago. I play dubs with him about once a month and he invariably always will work into the conversation about how he went to Nationals. While didn't cheat like the Norcal team did he pretty much openly admitted to getting self rated ringers to play below their levels. Funny thing is he is probably the worst player in our group and although he captained the team, he didn't even play. He was basically just a good recruiter.
     
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  50. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    I don't care about winning tournaments, I just want to play...I would be embarrassed to play down a level and dominate.
     
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