Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by beast22, Dec 5, 2010.
What are these? Like national opens??? I'm confused
They are Level 3 tournaments taking the place of the Copper Bowl, Dunlop etc. They are held 4 times per year with 8 concurrent tournaments of 32 draws.
Players qualify using their national rankings and can plan at any location.
I like it. We needed to reduce the distance traveled for all of these national tournaments. The reduced draw size will reduce the number of early round blowouts as well as shorten the length of time away from home. I see it as a positive adjustment.
Certainly there are some positive elements to the new plan and I think you hit on the top two.
Just out of curiosity, and I am not trying to infer anything negative by this question, but are you a current junior player playing national tournaments or a parent? I have talked too many of both at tournaments and have not found any support for the changes. I am sure there are some of both who do support the changes. I just have not run into any.
Not trying to start an argument or claiming that my opinion is correct or the only thing that is valid. Just curious.
I'm a parent and I'm OK with disagreements as long as everyone remains respectful. I'm sure there are pros and cons to the changes. I'm just offering my perspective. Thanks.
I have wondered if the parents and players in SoCal are not representative of the overall feelings about the changes. I am speculating, but it might be that SoCal had a disproportional number of Level 3 tournaments and easier access to Level 2 tournaments. Anyway, the mood here has not been one of support. At least the effort to eliminate the Easter Bowl failed.
I guess we'll see how the year goes. My kid did well enough, I think, to qualify for any of the revised events. But no parent I've talked to is feeling sanguine that their travel will be reduced. Those in the middle tier (ranking of 100-500) feel obligated now to play the level 3s to have a chance to qualify for the L2s -- which certainly was not the case before, as one could often qualify for a Nat. Open with hardly any ranking at all.
I guess the USTA wants everyone to have the experience of real pro or ITF tennis ... lots of traveling and lots of disappointments early.. chasing points at this stage for more kids and parents ... I'm glad I don't have to keep on doing this ... it's a sad life really...
think about it.. Thanksgiving day playing a Nat'l open
Christmas day,traveling to AZ for winter Nats..
the only places I really liked ... Hawaii got canceled and Florida clay is a good summer vacation but my kids hate clay courts tennis..
Kalamazoo is an awesome experience for anyone who loves tennis ,it breathes with excitement ..
Agree with those above who say that the USTA Regional Tournament Segments basically replace.... & is another name for last year's Level 3 Tournaments.
I definitely like the idea of the Level 3 (& the level 2) tournaments running concurrently. I also like the more "regional" aspect of it. (but jeez.....who selected the out in the middle of nowhere site of Midland TX.....& two months in a row?? ugh)
I don't think i have a problem with lowering the draw size to 32 for the level 3s....since there will be 8 tournaments running concurrently. 8 X 32 = 256
But i'm thinking that the Level 2 tournaments (with only 4 sites running concurrently) are going to see ALOT of great kids left out now that they've reduced the draw size to 32. Especially kids from the stronger sections who could be better than 1/2 the field (at least the on kids who rack up easy national points in weak sections, or sections with easy point systems in place).
Only 128 total kids will be playing on those Level Two tournament weekends. & these will be huge point gathering tournaments (that those left out won't get squat for national points). We'll see how it shakes out after the first L2 tournaments are played in Feb.
hey mr. madison im just guessing jareds your son im good friends with garret... i was looking at next years schedule and didnt see zonals are they taking that out also?
At first glance, the new schedule would seem to disfavor the kids from the stronger/deeper sections like SoCal, Southern, Texas, Florida; that is, sections where the national points available from sectional play might be more difficult to come by...I'm not sure - my kid's almost 11 and just about to embark on his first year of national play so we have no experience with the old schedule.
I'm a junior, and I like it. In the past, one would have to go to the likes of Arizona, Texas, etc. for L3s, and now I can just drive somewhere (relatively) local.
don't worry your section will be invaded by point chasing rich kids from SoCal.. who can't get into the local ones here..
LOL, so true. Should make for some interesting threads
Hey, i am Jared's dad.
Zonals are still in.
Won't these changes force better players to play in their sections designated and sectional tournaments? Some in the mid rankings don't play these anymore, they just wait for the Nationals, they may not be able to get in now forcing them to play locally. This would provide for better tennis locally and/or make those more difficult to get into. My kids aren't old enough or ranked high enough to get into the Nationals anyway so I'm still deciding if I like the changes. Would like input on this thought from other players and parents. Thanks.
JM, I remember talking to you about the change in Long Beach back in July. At the time, I was not in favor of it. Now that I see that there are actually TWO level 3's in January within reasonable travel distance (Vegas and Tucson), I'm not so sure the change will be that big of a deal. Any kid on the West Coast with a reasonable ranking should be able to get into either one of those. And unless he goes really deep, he can conceivably finish the tourney Sunday and make it back to school the next day. This I believe was a stated goal of the USTA - which I support, assuming the weather cooperates of course!
BTW, CA Bowl officially canceled - and no mention of refund.
I am definitely spoiled at this point. Vegas is 6 hours for me with no traffic, LOL, more like 8. Tucson is 10. Entry will not be a problem until after July, and then entry is less of a problem then ability to win matches.
Looking at the California Bowl you had to have a b16s ranking above 509 to get in. My guess is it will take above 200 for L3’s next year. What is your guess?
JM, if you think about it in the context of the Copper Bowl last year, now you have another choice that's somewhat closer in Vegas... Still 64 kids playing between the two sites closest to us.
Don't follow the 16's much but it seems to me that your math is on target ... My son got in Winter Nats ranked 261 (10th alternate) so 8 tournaments (256 kids total vs. 128 for WN) would give a target of around 500 to qualify. At any one site, it seems to me that a kid close to the median ranking of 250 would have a good shot to get in. FWIW.
It'll be interesting to see if the changes have the desired effects. I haven't looked at all of the segments, but just glancing at the Kansas City G18s, most of the applicants are from the *******, Northern, and Missouri Valley sections, but more than a third are from the others, many of them from the east and west coasts.
I think kids playing in a tournament within their section should be given first priority. If the draw is full, sorry charlie. If it isn't full, then allow the outsiders in.
Just looked at the Southwest section: only 18 of the 74 applicants for the Boys 18s are from Arizona. Obviously, there will be room in that draw for 'outsiders'. Sad there aren't more local applicants.
I don't see the level 2's running concurrently from level 3's, and that's not what the web site says either. Can you clarify where you are getting this?
Aren't there 3 of them? You are missing Palm Desert, which is the closest for SoCal boys.
What really sucks in all this is NorCal (and I think Pacific NW) got screwed. Palm Desert is 8hrs away with no traffic (drive thru LA with no traffic? good luck). LV & AZ is even farther.
He might have meant that the level 3s will run concurrently with each other -- as the L2s do (and have). Eight L3s run concurrently, as opposed to the random scheduling they had before.
Still anybody's guess as to whether this plan reduces travel as the USTA plans. When I see CA, NY, NJ, FL, MA, KY, TX, and MD planning to converge on Kansas City in January, I have my doubts.
The only two Regional sites on the West Coast that offer B14 are in Vegas and Tucson.
The SoCal people didn't complain in previous years with the West Coast Championships in Sacramento and the CVAC event in Carmel .
Ah, the rich wants more. You are forgetting Nationals in Long Beach in July, in Irvine in Nov, Easter Bowl in April, Monsoon Bowl in Dec. And I'm sure I'm forgetting a few...(Dunlop?)
Anyways, I clicked thru the 2011 links quickly. I think it's clear this new "Regional" format doesn't reduce the travel at all for NorCal region who qualifies for Level 3 or above.
For the level 3 Segments, out of the four segments of the year, only two have a site in NorCal (July in Sacramento, and Sept in Carmel). I think these are the formerly West Coast Champs & CVAC. The remaining two the closest are in Palm Dessert/LV/Tucson.
I think it is less traveling for just about everyone. There will be roughly one third as many national matches in 2011 as compared to 2010. Less tennis equals less traveling.
I love the national selection site message for the January regional tournaments.
It says “Check back January 2nd after 6:00 pm EST for selections” guess they missed that one
Understand. But I thought the regional nature was suppose to reduce travel for those who qualifies too. Looks to be true for SoCal, but not for NorCal. Not sure about others.
Read it again, it's actually very clever. They didn't say when they are going to post it, just after 6pm Jan 2nd. So they haven't missed yet...
That's plain stupid... don't tell me to "CHECK BACK" after a certain time if nothing is going to be posted. It's not like I don't have better things to do.
Yeah...I sometimes don't type exactly what i'm thinking. Gully is correct. I meant that the 8 L3 (regional) tournaments will all fall on the same weekend in January.
(& also in July, Sept. & Oct, there will only be ONE weekend in each of these months that these L3s will be played....as opposed to spread out all over the calender.)
And regarding Draw Size:
Only 22 to 23 applicants in my kid's draw in Midland TX, & even most of the older kid's draws had at most 40 kids applying......so lowering the draw size to 32 had ZERO impact....then again it IS Midland Texas. A couple of kids from Oklahoma were the only out of staters. Heck....the El Paso kids are playing in AZ & the Houston kids are playing in Mobile.
I don't think the REAL squealing will take place until the Level 2s in Feb. (only 4 tournaments....& only 32 draws.)
I looked at the January ranking list and noticed they still include eight results from both singles and doubles. I thought the new year was dropping that to 6 results. Did I miss something?
JM, I only count 6 for my kid, same thing for another one of his buddies.
Same for my kid. They made the change....6 singles & 6 doubles results counted.
B12s National Ranking dated 1/5/11.
Regarding the Regional L3s. Did anyone else have new applicants dropped into the "Applicant" list AFTER the deadline. 1/2 a dozen were dropped into each age group in Midland yesterday.
(I thought one had to sign up for multiple sites if they wanted flexibility to play at one site or another....in other words first choice, second choice etc.)
These new kids were NOT there at the deadline close. No worries for my kid, but he's got some older friends who might be pushed out of the draw (by out of state kids who weren't on the applicant list the day after the deadline).
Note - the competititor list hasn't been posted yet....i heard it might come out today for the Midland TX tournament.
My bad. I was only looking at the date 1/06/2011 and I picked up the 2010 National Final Rankings.
Wild cards perhaps?
for 2011 I'm so pissed at USTA for taking the National out of Hawaii .. I love that tournament .. outside of Kalamazoo ,it was the best tournament I've been to..
As a parent very new to this, can someone explain to me how my daughter can get a national ranking having just moved into the 12s, given that these draws are all dramatically smaller than past years? We're in the Southern section and only ranked kids seem to be getting in, so how can kids new to an age group establish a national ranking if they can't get in any of the tourneys? And even if there are openings, how does the tournament select among kids with no national ranking? I must be missing something simple, as it seems just a bit circular. Thanks.
The top two levels of Sectional tournaments (sometimes called Championships and Challengers in many sections) offer national ranking points. They count as levels 4 and 5 on the national scale.
So, get a sectional ranking high enough to get into those, then earn national points, then shoot for levels 1-3 on the national tournament list.
I sort of figured that, but thanks much for confirming!
I agree with everything Clark says, and would add a couple of comments if your 10 or 11 y/o is improving rapidly, loves to compete & looks at getting beat up by high ranked 12 y/o's as a fun challenge.
Take a look at the Level 3 tournaments in July (the weekend of July 9-12). Unless i've misread, 8 tournaments nationwide & i believe these are the only Level 2 or Level 3 tournaments that will have 64 draws. In the 12s there will be several locations that won't have full draws (imo).
(Click on July of 2011 & look at the july 9-12th tourneys with G12s draws offered)
My kid was where your kid was 14-16 mos. ago. Was just starting to compete in the high level Sectional tournaments (in Texas). Both were 10 y/o. On a lark we took him & his buddy ranked similar to a Louisiana Natl. a year ago since they had openings in the draw on the last day of sign up.
Had a great experience. Got a couple of wins (& got beat down in one singles & one doubles match ) & got to hang out with the big dogs in the section. (Goofing around, playing dink etc.) Also, i love the fact that these tournaments have feed in consys (NOT available in our section).
Even if he had been 2 & out, it would have been worth the trip. It was good to get the ooh ahh first National Tourney experience out of the way with ZERO expectations. Plus she'll probably make some friends & might even snag some National Points that could come in handy later in the year (or the first of NEXT year).
The key (imo) is taking the kid to the first big sectional tournament or the first Nat. tournament with ZERO expectations & only for the fun & the experience..... & if she gets a win or two it's gravy.
so as the USTA regionals started today and I see a ton of SoCal kids in LV and Tucson.. it's funny to see those family travels so far to chase points or just running away from the stronger competition of home ..
Not sure I would describe it as "running away" if they can't qualify to get in locally... Also there's no B14 in Palm Desert.
Recap from L3 Regional in Midland TX:
- Draws of B12s, G12s, B14s, G14s & G16s.
- Probably 70% Texans & 30% out of staters. I'd say 1/2 the out of staters probably couldn't qualify at more popular sites (but some were top 5 in their section).
- Thankfully dry all weekend, cold in the mornings & nice (& windy) in the afternoons.
- LOVE the feed in consolation aspect of it.....but fyi, no back draw Final (2 backdraw winners).
- Crap facilities (except for the G16 site) but the kids are used to it, so no biggie.
- Highly ranked seeds from MoValley, Eastern & Mid Atl. were (for the most part) beaten by lower ranked Texans (harder to accumulate natl points in texas....so lower ranking).
Glad i did it, but after a 6 hour drive & 3 nights in a hotel to play mostly kids we see in ranking tournaments, we're going to pass on the L2 event in Midland in Feb. If it was more "Regional" (closer).....or if more high end kids from elsewhere competed we'd do the L2, but they need to choose closer more attractive & accessible sites to attract out of state players.
What do green ball tournaments mean?
I have to rework my entire plan for my kids. They were almost ranked high enough to start playing Nationals, now they are further out due to the change of draw size.
I'm not sure what needs to be reworked. Since they are already on the cusp, playing Nationals is just going to be delayed for half a year to a year as they get better and other players age out.
I saw two kids ranked #1 in the 12's one time or another last year in SoCal who are stuck deep on the 14's alternates list at Claremont... Food for thought.
we think it will make a difference to the middle age groups the most and that will be my younger brother and sister
Can I get into a regional based on a sectional ranking? just curious i have no national point besides those received from sectional tournaments, but i would like to get started with nationals. also are national open possible to get into with a sectional ranking?
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