USTA Sectional Opens Counting for TRN Rankings - 4/1 - 7/31

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by dallasoliver, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    People have requested for quite some time that TennisRecruiting.net (TRN) publish tournaments that will count towards its rankings. Historically, we have used the USTA National Schedule, ITF tournaments on U.S. soil, and additional USTA sectional and ITF tournaments with sufficient cross-play. These "additional tournaments" were added after-the-fact once we could analyze the strength of the tournament.

    http://tennisrecruiting.net/faq/rankings.asp#Rankings-J

    Going forward, are going to modify our policies - we will continue to use the tournaments above, but we will also include a set of Sectional Open tournaments that are historically strong. These Sectional Opens will definitely count towards TRN rankings - as well as towards qualifying competitors as "national players" at TRN as long as the competitor has a win in these tournaments.

    Here is a partial list of such tournaments. We will update this list from time to time:

    4/7 – GA State Spring Open Chmps. (Rome, GA) [USTA Tournament ID 703468012]
    4/9 - L1 Port Washington Spring Classic (Port Washington, NY) [100312712]
    4/14 - USA Drug Spring Classic Open (Little Rock, AR) [703300212]
    4/14 – ZMG @ Boca Super Series (Boca Raton, FL) [153824112]
    4/26 – 112th Annual Ojai Valley Jr. Tourn. (Ojai, CA) [651747812]
    4/28 – Anaheim TC Spring Jr. Open (Anaheim, CA) [651701812]
    4/28 – Aquafina RTC Open State Chmps. (Ridgeland, MS) [703833612]
    4/28 – Rio Del Oro Jr. Chmps. (Sacramento, CA) [508342712]
    5/5 – 33rd Annual Lakewood Spring Jr. Open (Lakewood, CA) [651727512]
    5/5 – Super Series @ Midtown AC (Weston, FL) [150755512]
    7/14 – GA State Jr. Open (Rome, GA) [703460612]
    7/16 – 19th Annual Costa Mesa Summer Classic (Costa Mesa, CA) [651753012]
    7/19 – 41st Annual Knowlwood Jr. Tourn. (Santa Barbara, CA) [651704012]
    7/30 – 20th Annual Northridge Open (Northridge, CA) [651754412]

    You can find any of these tournaments by entering the USTA Tournament ID here:

    http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/Common/Home.aspx

    As I said above, this is a partial list, and we will update it as we become aware of additional tournaments. If you know of a historically strong Open tournament that we should consider for this list, please contact us at info@tennisrecruiting.net.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
    #1
  2. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    Thank you!

    Good to know.
     
    #2
  3. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Dallas,

    Thanks for the post and expanding more tournaments calculated and reference group players.

    Extending reference group beyond national players might be a way to save American prospects for college tennis.
     
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  4. Tennisstringz

    Tennisstringz New User

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    Thanks Dallas. This is a great relief for American kids trying for scholarships.

    Most of the kids and parents really only care about your ranking system. It encourages looking for the strongest competition. In USTAs, players looked for the weakest draws and the weakest fields. Because of your site, we look for tourneys with the best players. And when we get a seed in the first round, we are happy, because we have a chance to pull off an upset and move up in TRN. My kid's abilities have really improved since we adopted this approach. Try to gain skills that can beat the best rather than playing a style that gets cheap wins.

    I bet most college coaches believe your ranking. If not, they re missing out. The only time I ve seen it not predict well, is when one player has been hiding ( sandbagging), coming back from injury, or there is a psychological factor between the players.

    Someday, there ought to be a TRN tournament series for juniors in highschool. Blue chips are taken care of on the national level. We need a four star five star showdown. It would be cool to see how predictive your rankings would be.
     
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  5. jbw

    jbw New User

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    Another Open Tournament Added

    Another USTA open sectional was added to the published list after I spoke with the tournament referee. It is the L1 Port Washington Spring Classic (Port Washington, NY) that begins on April 9th. Entries are still open and its TennisLink ID is 100312712.
     
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  6. Erman

    Erman Rookie

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    You said"I bet most college coaches believe your ranking. If not, they re missing out. The only time I ve seen it not predict well, is when one player has been hiding ( sandbagging), coming back from injury, or there is a psychological factor between the players."

    The system is still getting rigged. There are a couple of 2013 players who decided to repeat or prolong or redo their sophomore/junior year and now jumped up in rankings and stars/chips. Almost like an artificial "gap" year.
     
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  7. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ..........................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  8. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    We have been talking about this for over a year, but no sign that TRN will address it.
    ( They stated legal issues, which doesn't make sense as the ITF shows birth dates.
    And also, when TRN is posting on Tuesday, a past weekend tournament with a qualifier...
    well, if you wanted to kidnap that junior, you would know where to show up the following weekend,
    so not sure about the privacy issues.)

    In my son's grade, he had kids that are 18 months older than him on TRN.
    Some kids, player A and B have two years difference.
    I know hard to believe.
    Some kids will turn 18 in the fall of college year, and other kids will be turning 20.
    Of course, it will all even out after everyone is matured, but it looks quite different when you are in the middle of it
    and a kid looks like a superstar, but they really are just playing younger kids...

    So, either you can keep your son/daughter in the correct grade, and play by the rules.
    Or, leave them back a grade as no one will ever know.
    But, if you are going to do it, then it must be at the latest by summer of the end of 8th grade.
    Once high school starts, the clock is ticking, and you won't be able to manipulate the system.

    The biggest caveat I have noticed among the kids who do it are they tend to be the heavier partiers among the tennis kids.
    ( And I can tell you the majority of tennis kids don't party ( drink, smoke pot)).
    But, they are the first to drink in their school grade, etc. I don't know why.

    Obviously, a personal decision, but the issues of transparency that I have with the USTA, apply here too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2012
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  9. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    This is from the TRN FAQ section:

    What is so important about ranking by graduating class?

    Rankings by graduation year are important to college coaches. Colleges recruit based on graduation year, and age-based rankings - particularly two-year rankings like 18 & Under and 16 & Under - are too coarse for college coaches.
     
    #9
  10. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    There is no way to control this. Any parent can hold back their child if they want to. All they have to say is that they don't feel that their child is prepared for the next grade. This has been going on in football and basketball for decades.

    TRN is done by a player's year in school, regardless of how old they are. Just like scout.com and rivals.com do with football and basketball. They don't list a player's birthdate and they are owned by major corporations.

    Once a player turns 19 then they are not going to be playing any tournaments that will be on the TRN system. If a player turns 19 at any point in a calendar year then they cannot play Junior ITF tournaments in that calendar year.

    The USTA stopped putting DOB up years ago because of legal issues. At the BG16&18 Spring Supers they put the players DOB on their player cards that are put on the fences by the courts. One parent demanded that they take their daughter's month and day off the card.

    When an 18 year old freshman has to go up against a 23 year old senior in a regular match in college nobody cares about age. That is the position you are in and you have to fight your way out of it.
     
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  11. CoachDad

    CoachDad Rookie

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    Scout.com provides the birth dates on their paid service. But its apples and oranges because its a team sport and tennis is one on one.

    TRN could use a non specific formula, say within 15 days of the actual birth date. I am sure a computer person could figure a way to include approximate age in the calculation without giving the actual birth date.

    I think in junior tennis is would be proper to somehow weigh the age into the rankings.
     
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  12. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    What's wrong with just providing the month/year?

    Would it matter to a college coach if he was recruiting two blue chips that were 1.5 years apart?
     
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  13. jht32

    jht32 Rookie

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    Why would it matter if it's a team sport or individual sport?

    If I'm trying to recruit the best tennis player or the best quarterback, the recruit's grade would matter. Also, the recruit's actual age either matters or not based on one's viewpoint. But the fact that it's a team sport or individual sport, how does that affect if knowing the actual age matters or not?
     
    #13
  14. jht32

    jht32 Rookie

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    Yes, TRN is for college recruiting, and the graduation year ranking would be more valuable than age-based rankings.

    College coaches, if they knew the kids age, might factor that into the decision (or not). Some college coaches might give younger kids bonus points for being younger, some college coaches might give olders kids bonus points for being more mature, some college coaches may not care about the age at all. The age would be a nice to know. But for TRN to factor age into the graduation year ranking, whatever algorithm is used would not be universally accepted.
     
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  15. jht32

    jht32 Rookie

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    This also goes on for academic reasons too. Some people can just afford to give their kids an extra year (or two) to give them a competitive advantage.

    It's just the way it is. I know. I graduated high school at 17 years 1 month old and I remember thinking that I would have prefered not to have been pushed to skip a grade.
     
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  16. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Agreed (oh-oh!!!)

    In addition,

    Memo to parents out there:

    You can put your child's age on TRN in the Player Bio section under Update/ "Private Information", if you are a TRN subscriber. Only coaches (and you) are able to see this private information. It surprises me that anyone who is/has been through the system does not know this!

    Age might be relevant (or not) for a coach, as jht described in his post. But as for rankings, and the suggestion that it be broken down by "month, year" as I think I read earlier............well I don't know how many coaches would care who is #1-50 for those born in October 1996 or Sept 1995
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2012
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  17. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    I doubt it. Just look at the class of 2009.

    Evan King didn't turn 18 until the dual season of his Freshman year. I doubt if there was a single school in the country that wouldn't have taken him.

    Devin Britton is almost exactly a year older than Evan.

    Jarmere Jenkins is a year and a half older than Evan.
     
    #17
  18. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    The birthday can be entered so I don't know what the problem is. If Dallas gives in then folks will move on to asking him to rank or sort by birthdate etc.

    Stand your ground Dallas. TRN is class based, not age. It's for college recruiting not for ego verification.
     
    #18
  19. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Problem is that there are kids that are held back in school, graduating at age 19,20.

    This issue was discussed in another thread.
     
    #19
  20. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .........................
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  21. CoachDad

    CoachDad Rookie

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    To me its simple, tennis is one on one and things are aged based from day 1. The 10s, 12s, etc. I think it would be better to have it very transparent and have rankings based on class for college coaches and age for the rest of us.

    Come on now, who among us would not check out rankings lists that had the best kids based on ages broken down to quarters? The best 15.25s, the best 15.5s.

    Not that it is earth shattering....just cool to see who is the highest ranked for their age. Also fun to track how it correlates as they age. I think a site that did such a thing with documented birth dates would be very popular. The actual birth dates could be kept private by the organization within, rolling over randomly within a 10 day period.

    I think it would be more for fun than substance, but popular none the less.
     
    #21
  22. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    In hind sight, I would of started my kids 1-2 years later. One of my kids graduated at 17, the other turned 18 in March of senior year.
     
    #22
  23. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ......................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  24. CoachDad

    CoachDad Rookie

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    Yeah, they could use some computer deal so the actual birth date is not posted. Its an ad driven thing. How many tennis parents and players and family members would check out the age based rankings? I think a lot and often.

    Again....more for giggles than substance.
     
    #24
  25. friedalo1

    friedalo1 Semi-Pro

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    Doing a great job?

    I will try to play all your tournaments. Too bad my kid is just 12 and 10. Lot of your tournaments are for 14 and over. I played one of your campus jr vs college clinics. It was fun she . she won 3 matchs lost 2.
     
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  26. Chemist

    Chemist Rookie

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    Once our children start college, they will play players several years older. I believe that a junior who likes to play up would be more successful in college tennis. Starting school a year or two late or repeating 8th grades would surely help boosting her/his TRN ranking that is dependent on the year of graduation. But would anybody honestly believe that this kid is a much better tennis player by repeating the 8th grade?
     
    #26
  27. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Agreed.

    In addition, aren't the vast majority of high school graduates 17 or 18 years old on graduation day?

    Or maybe I am wrong and there are a lot of 19 and 20 year old high school graduation day graduates out there? Based on my small slice of experience, I don't think high school is the right place for most 19 or 20 year olds............tennis or no tennis
     
    #27
  28. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Keep in mind that rankings are often the starting point, but still just a tool, not an entrance exam into college. Coaches still want to see a kid hit a ball, preferably in a match with some adversity. At the end of the day, a college coach is more concerned in seeing firsthand a kid's ability to hold serve (singles) and volley (doubles) than a TRN or USTA ranking.
     
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  29. Chemist

    Chemist Rookie

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    100% agree! Dartmouth recruited a girl in our section early this year when she was a 3 star. Now her TRN ranking is near top 50 after winning section championship and national open. TRN ranking will get coaches' initial attention. This is actually rather important. The following is a true story - my friend's daughter was attending a full-time tennis academy and she started to write coaches of D1 schools when her TRN ranking was about #100. She got very few positive responses. The coach of a top D1 team did not even bother to answer the email. This coach went to watch a match of a blue chip at one of the super nationals. Guess what, that blue chip was playing my friend's daughter. Even though she lost the match, the coach was impressed enough to offer her (of course the blue chip as well) a spot on the team. She became a top 30 5 star several months later and may play a higher position than the blue chip in the spring. Had a nice conversation with Bryan Shelton, the most humble and nicest tennis person I have ever met - Coach Shelton told me that he likes to recruit a kid who shows improvement year after year since this is the best indication that this recruit would continue to improve in college.
     
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  30. matchplay

    matchplay Rookie

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    you are spot on
     
    #30
  31. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    While I agree ( and have heard from coaches directly) they like to see a player hit in a match to view many different aspects
    of the kids game ( sportsmanship and style), it will be harder for kids to be seen with the upcoming proposed cuts.
     
    #31
  32. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    ^^^That's your opinion. What facts do you have that show coaches will recruit less due to the changes? Coaches know who they want to watch before they go to a tournament. Players are not discovered by coaches stumbling around a tournament and randomly noticing a rondom kid playing on random court.
     
    #32
  33. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Andfor,

    Last time, we communicated through Talk Tennis, you said I was Chalk...

    Now, while Chalk is a nice guy, he is a pro USTA guy.

    Since, about 99.999999999% of my posts are Anti USTA, I am not sure you could confuse us...


    Ok, well I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

    My opinion is based on personal experience of what I have witnessed at national tournaments.

    And if you are reading this whole thread, you can look 1 post up from my original post on this subject, and Chemist wrote the following:


    So, I would say that was a random kid that the coach looked at in that match. The coach did not have that junior on his or her list.

    And I am not Chemist either.... :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
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  34. Chemist

    Chemist Rookie

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    I am actually a chemist... Kalamazoo is a great tournament that our kids would have opportunities to talk to college coaches or have a fairly good chance to be seen by coaches (randomly). The tournament scheduled both 16s and 18s matches on the same site. My son, playing 16s, initiated the conversation with two coaches and asked them to watch his match. One did. Two coaches were watching other kids, near the court on which my son played. Even he lost the 3rd set, I believe he left some positive impression with these coaches because they visited his TRN page that evening.
     
    #34
  35. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    In this case, just as I said the coach knew who he was going to watch. And in this case they coach happened to like who his targeted player was playing. So according to you, this will never happen again. I understand where your coming from, but this one-off expample will remain the same under the the new system, one-off, and will still happen.

    The USTA while they are very misguided, the sky is not falling and although today is 12/21 the world will not end. College tennis recruiting will continue and on occasion a once unidentified player will be discovered by a college coach who did not know they existed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
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  36. Chemist

    Chemist Rookie

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    The new USTA structure will eliminate Winter National for all age groups and Spring Championship for 18s, and reduce draw size of Clay and Hard Court Championship. These events are attended by many college coaches. Thus unless our kids are highly ranked (in the new system, highly ranked in sections), they would not be able to qualify for super nationals. These missing out may be high 4 stars that many mid major college coaches would like to recruit. On the other hand, I have seen D1 coaches come to our section's 18s events to scout for players. You are right that "the sky will not fall" and college tennis recruiting will continue even if USTA were to eliminate all national events. Our kids just have to work harder on tennis training and on academics. They need also to start to contact coaches early. If a coach is really interested in our kids, they will find a way to watch our kids. In addition, we can always tape an actual match and send DVD to coaches.
     
    #36
  37. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I am a nice guy (compliment accepted). And I am pro USTA but neither of those characterizations should contribute to my post as being labeled as inaccurate or "spot on" as noted here.

    And I'm referring to to the use of any junior ranking service like TennisRecruiting.net - not just USTA. Most college coaches don't Wild West it and just show up at K'ZOO and roam.
     
    #37
  38. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Right. The need to contact coaches pro actively and start early is essential by most all 4 stars (depending on their schools of choice) and below. I don't see this being any different in the future as it is today.

    Major and Mid-Major college coaches looking for the "diamond in the rough" will have to show up more at sectional regional tournaments now is the way I see it. But before they find the player with possible upside potential they have an idea who they are before they go to the courts.

    I have a story of my own. I directly know a player who never played above a Level 4 nationals. And due to his proactive reaching out to coaches found one that gave him a tennis full ride this year. That's right a tennis full-ride. Now the scholarship offer may be rare, point is it would not have happened if the player and parents sat back and waited for this coach/program to contact them.
     
    #38
  39. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    It sounds like he did good by being proactive and was realistic about his level in choosing a college. I would assume he went in playing #1 or maybe 2 for the team if the scholarship story is true. I saw stats that the freshman boys that actually get full rides is like 3 a year, obviously low and only cause they go to schools where they play at the top. Obviously a lot of people out there exaggerating about their scholarships, cause at any tournament there is someone going on about how they have a full ride here or there. They be embarrassing themselves. (not saying your guy doing this, just in general).
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
    #39

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