Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Andy Zarzuela, Mar 1, 2005.
Where has her 1st serve gone? She always has had that head-dropping terrible 2nd serve, but that wasn't such a problem when she was winning easy points with the 1st serve. Venus played the best tennis, imo, ever played by a woman during those summers of 2000 and 2001.
Sometimes, I'm afraid she has peaked and may not win another Major. Do you think she doesn't want to play as much as Serena?
Personally I would have to disagree Venus was playing the best tennis of any woman player ever in 2000-2001. Serena was playing the best tennis of any women player ever in 2002-2003. Venus made 5 of her 7 slam finals between 2002-2003, which means she beat every woman outside of Serena 5 of 7 times. In 2001-2002 she did that only 4 of 7(beating every woman player other than Serena and including Serena herself of course), which is one indication that she was atleast as good if not better in 2002-2003 than 2000-2001 since other than against Serena she was as or more regularly beating other women in big events, but Serena was simply better still.
Camilio, are you serious? Even when Venus was winning, she still made an enormous amount of unforced errors. Graf, EVert, Martina, Seles--they ALL beat her in their primes.
Don't give me this garbage about Venus beating Graf when Graf was hurt and at the end of her career.
I said it before, Venus is not clutch and will not go down as even one of the top 20 of all time. Her inablity to improve her serve and overall consistency is ridiculous. If she would show some character and get herself a REAL coach, maybe she could win another major--maybe.
Actually I think Venus at her best would have too much power for Evert in her prime. I agree Seles, Graf, Navratilova, would all have too much consistency for Venus though.
Coria - Chris Evert never played Venus.
Seles (1-9) against Venus, folks, beat Venus in the 2002 OZ, well past Monica's prime.
Venus is 9 - 10 against Hingis, 4 - 1 after 1999, closer to the time frame I'm talking about.
Graf is 3-2 against Venus, all these matches were played after Graf's prime...to Graf's credit, but before 2000, to my credit.
You shot me the names of 4 players, one who never played her and 3 who did not beat Venus during the time frame I gave, I don't really get your point. Also, wouldn't beating Venus when they are NOT in their prime be even more impressive?
Go back and look in the archives of this message board and other tennis message boards and look at others' opinions at the time. Also, I was very specific, just look at her matches in the summers, i.e. from right before Wimby through the US Open.
Davey 25 - It's hard to argue your contention that Serena played the best of all in 2002 - 2003, you could be right. And she had to beat the woman I saw play the best ever, Venus Williams, to do it.
IMO Venus was confident at those times, but when her sister started beat her regularly that became very big shock for her and she lost confidence in herself. IMO to lose to somebody is very hard, but to lose to your sister and at the same time trying to look happy that your sister won is twice more difficult, if not hundreds time.
I don't care how well anybody thinks Venus played in 2000 or whenever. At her VERY best, she still made too many mistakes. In 2000, Seles was FAT, out of shape and a shell of her former self before the stabbing. Graf was gone. Sanchez was about gone. Serena was not ready. And Hingis was too underpowered.
I watched Venus when she was at her best. She BARELY beat Davenport and the matches were often sloppy. The Venus/Serena matches were horrible to watch. In the '01 US OPEN, that was some of the ugliest tennis I've ever seen.
If Evert played in the late 90's, early 2000's, she'd have beat Venus on pure consistency alone. She'd probably be using a more powerful racket. Evert was so much more consistent and intelligent on the court than Venus on her best day. Martina would have CLOCKED Venus in her prime. She volleyed better than Venus, had a much better serve, created better angles, had a better slice and was way more consistent.
Graf in the late 80's through mid 90's would have eaten Venus for lunch. Venus was never that good. If she was, she would have not stunk so badly for three or four years now in big matches. She will retire with only 4 slams. Not bad, but not that good either for somebody of her so-called talent. While Davenport has choked a lot in big grand slam matches, she's won twice as many tournaments as Venus and has been a far more consistent performer.
Graf was on one leg at the time and Venus was near her peak, so there's little doubt what would have happened if both were at their best.
I dont want to speak for somebody else but I think what Camilio was pointing out was that Venus against Graf, Evert, Seles, in their mutual primes has not really occured, been put to the test, or demonstrated. Graf and Venus played when neither was among their absolute primes although both were serious contenders(99) and had four meetings which they split. 96 was so much in Grafs favor it is almost a write off. Seles and Venus never played in Seless prime, egre-stabbing or perhaps the first 6 months after the return. They played a few matches when Venus was maturing, and a bunch in Venuss prime, Venus dominating only losing 1 match, but having the advantage of being much more in her prime than Seles. Evert and Venus of course never met, Venus didnt even play her first pro match until 5 years after Everts last. So there is no viable examples or barometres as far as head to head matchups how she would do against that group in their primes.
It is mostly based on our own opinions on the ability of the players.
One could argue Hingiss prime was 97-99. Others would argue Hingis was still in her prime until her final injury early in 2002. I personally feel while she struggled mightily with the increased power hitting, she also lost some confidence, and craft to her game early in 2000. I dont feel any chance Hingis in her prime would lose as many as three straight times to Capriati, or lose a French Open semifinal to Mary Pierce, but that is just my opinion. Either way Hingiss edge over Venus head to head was before Venuss generally regared prime starting in 2000, with Venus already competitive and challenging in 98 and 99 although Venus was a viable contender on tour by that point. What point in her career Hingis was at 2000-beyond is debatable, to those that believe she was still in her prime though Venus had a clear edge in that period.
graf would destroy serena and venus because they dont know how to hit a low forhand. graf would slice an dice them.
Well even a depleted Graf could hit a nasty slice, and they handled it quite well in their 99 matchups, and a result were in all the matches with Graf.
I have a match of Serena vs Graf in some tournament (can't remember right now) anyhow, it was in probably like 99' but the match went 3 sets and Serena won it. I agree that the low slices gave Serena lots of trouble but she still found a way around it. It wasn't that much of a problem that it completely paralyzed Serena's game....
I think Venus just needs to start practicing and get back driven like she was from 00-04. She'll be back on top of things once she starts preparing like she should. Right now, she isnt practicing or training like a pro should and therefore her weaknesses are becoming weaker and more serious a threat to hurting her game (this would happen to any player that doesnt practice).
She's sitll got the game (it was only a little over a year ago that she was beating Kim Clijsters while injured. But she's lost some kind of internal fire and realization of practice.
I hope she gets back on top of things tho. I love Venus & the diversity she adds to the game. In fact, I wanna see all of the top players (Davenport, Sharapova, Serena, Venus, Clijsters & Henin-Hardenne, Mauresmo and perhaps Jcap) all on top of their game for perhaps the US Open. Wouldn't that be amazing tennis?
Serena wins because J. Cap, Davenport, Mauresmo and Venus--they usually choke under pressure. Sad, but true. How many chances has Capriati had to win an Open. She has served how many times for a win and double faults, sprays a forehand, rushes, etc. Mauresmo hasn't won a major and plays her poorest tennis when she gets to the semis or quarters. Clisters is a great player but did anybody see her pathetic performance against Henin under pressure last year.
Davenport is great but has not won a major in 5 years and always finds a way to blow it in the semis or finals.
I agree that most womens titles have been won the last 5 years by their opponent choking. Look at the Australian Open this year, Serena playing below her potential, but winning because Sharapova and Davenport both choked and handed her the matches on a silver platter with a pretty pink bow on top. It has been that way for 5 years now. It is now a chokefest, and the survivor wins.
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