Very Interesting Write Up on Cheating in Junior Tennis

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by WARPWOODIE, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. WARPWOODIE

    WARPWOODIE Rookie

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    #1
  2. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    My kids are done with junior tennis, but from my experience cheating stems from parents, kids from academies and lastly, private coaches.

    Of my 15 years of attending junior tournaments, I've see every type of cheating.

    Truly amazing that parents would sit and watch their child cheat.
     
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  3. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Definitely some parents and some academy coaches are behind the cheating

    as they sit there and watch it go on..... and not a peep out of them.

    Kids are like clay, you can either mold them to do the right thing or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
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  4. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    ^^^ Agree with hacker and 5 - the buck stops at the parents. Standing idly by while their kid cheats their way to a win is just as bad as telling them to cheat.
     
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  5. dfreetennis

    dfreetennis New User

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    I vividly remember a tournament I played when I was about 13. I was in the finals (it was a relatively small tournament) and I won the first set 6-4. We were at 3-3 in the second and he was up an ad. I clearly remember hitting an approach shot that would've been a winner, if he hadn't called it out. I saw it land inside the line, there was no doubt in my mind. I gave him one of those, "You cannot be serious!!" but he didn't change his mind. Then later the same set when I was down 3-5 I hit practically the exact same shot, he called it out again. I was too shy at the time to make a big deal out of it and get the tournament director, so I played on. I ended up losing like 4-6, 6-3, then like 10-5 in a third set tiebreaker. After the match on the drive home my dad told me that he was talking to the cheater's dad the whole match. My dad said that when he first cheated my, my dad said, "You know that was in, right", and the cheater's dad responded, "I just let him play the game. He's on the court, not me. I'm not going to make any decisions for him." Not surprisingly, this kid is a notorious cheater and his dad is a notorious d-bag. Good thing they moved to Italy.
     
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  6. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    I heard the guy is now a legal prosecutor...

    :shock:
     
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  7. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    I would love to see a study of the cheaters, not the cheated. After watching 5 years of junior girls tennis, I'm pretty familiar with what the cheated think. I'd really love to ehar how the cheaters excuse or rationalize their own behavior, how it is (it must be!) endorsed or encouraged by the adults, what they believe they gain from it.

    Heck, I can supply a half-dozen names for any prospective researcher!
     
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  8. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    That would be interesting. I've run across several adults in my life that are, shall we say "less than ethical", and a few outwardly admit and are proud of it. Their attitude is "get as much as you can in life as fast as you can by any means and if you get in my way I'm going to f&*% you over". It's not pretty. Maybe some are tennis parents.:twisted:
     
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  9. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    One of the USTA boys up here brags about his cheating....

    He is very proud of it.

    Can you imagine?

    I can only equate how strange it is to someone bragging about cheating on their spouse or stealing clothing.

    He seems to be absent any morals.
     
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  10. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    It is a very complex issue because there are 2 sides to the coin. Many times when the kids lose, they or the parents say it was because of cheating. So you have real cheating, and cheating used as an excuse for getting beat by a better player. Same with pushing.

    My guess is from thinking about all the tournaments I have seen...2/3rds of the times I have heard kids/parents say they lost because of cheating/pushing, the other kid was playing fair and smart tennis. At least 2/3rds of the time the 'cheating' was imagined and the 'pushing' was in the proper context of point construction.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  11. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I've probably been to 100 tournaments (& have watched several hundred matches) the past three years. For 90% of the matches, I don't find it complex at all.

    Probably 80% are clean matches. Probably 15% have a cheater involved. Maybe 5% have that "complex" grey area that you suggest TCF.


    & PLEASE, PLEASE don't lump "pushers" with cheaters. 90% of all "pushers" don't cheat. & 10% of all "baseline bashers" DO cheat. The style of game doesn't have anything to do with it.

    The style of parenting (or coaching) does.


    (note - TCF, looks like you might have edited the original post.....i think i get what you're saying.....don't label someone a cheater or pusher.....unless one KNOWS what a cheater (or pusher) is.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  12. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    My experience is that if the parents are big SOBs, more often than not, their kids cheat.
     
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  13. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Am confused why you keep putting pushing and cheating together?

    Pushing is done by someone who is in great shape...
    and win their points honestly.

    Cheating is immoral.

    Please explain to me how cheating is used as an excuse for being beat by a better player,
    or better yet, is imagined.....
    when the "better player" changes the score card at the net when the worse player gets the ref?

    And I guess they changed the let rule in college for no reason as 2/3's of the cheating is imaginary there too.

    Until folks take cheating seriously, it will always be a problem.

    Another problem is the way I see some juniors act towards the refs at national tournaments
    ( disrespectful and cursing at them in another language),
    but that is another story in itself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  14. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Speaking from actual experience, claiming a loss to a pusher is not the same as losing to a cheater.

    My kids were not pushers, but hitters. In the younger age groups 12's & 14's, you would hear "lost to pusher", meaning it was a clean match, just lost to someone who gets the ball back with no pace. (moonballing).
    Those who pushed in the younger age group have difficulty in the 16's and 18's competing with those kids that were hitters from the beginning.

    When my kids would lose to cheaters, (they are know by all) the loss is more metal than physical.
    We know that kids at a young age are very focused on playing within the rules of any game, making losing to cheaters even worse.
     
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  15. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks for posting.

    My son started late, so we have only seen one pusher so far.
    Incredibly athletic kid, but very moonbally shots.
    Doesn't usually get past two rounds.

    On the other hand, my son played a kid this past weekend at a national tournament
    who would hit more deep heavy balls,
    and when my son could come up and hit a winner, this kid got to every ball.
    3 long sets, and the kid was not out of breath... Impressive.

    Anyway, back to the cheating thread.
    It seems everyone knows who they are, and while the good kids are not friendly with the cheaters,
    surprisingly, in an age where kids want to be liked and peer pressure is so strong,
    the cheaters don't seem to care if they are isolated, and no one talks to them.
     
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  16. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    ^^^What's interesting is that the cheaters end up friends with the other cheaters.
    From my experience, the parents of the cheaters and the cheater are not within the social norm.
     
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  17. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    Out of about 500 matches (70/yr USTA, 30 HS), I don't think my kid ever lost just because her opponent cheated, nor did she ever blame a cheating opponent for a loss.

    However, in a couple dozen of those matches, cheating was an obvious factor if not the ultimate determinant of the result. I am pretty sure that cheaters did win close matches against other players by virtue of a few well-timed hooks and other tactices.

    I don't really care about the Ws and Ls here, I'm just saying that the cheating from certain players was sometimes obvious, and IT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM in the sport if it never incurs any penalty at all.

    "Cheating" is not just a tag the losing player tries to pin on a loss. It happens, fairly often, and without any penalty to those who do it. This fact tells them, as well as the kids who play straight, that cheating is, for all intents and purposes, just fine.
     
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  18. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Over the past year, my son was probably cheated 20%.

    5% - In the beginning, too angry to win.

    5% - he was able to get a ref to stay, and won.

    10% - Very bad cheating.
    He would get a ref ( watch 3 points, would over rule the other boy on one point, but would never stay),
    as as soon as the ref walked off, cheating starts again,
    then my son would get another ref ( who would over rule the other boy again, but wouldn't stay).
    This scenario is a few matches..
    He could never win in those matches.


    We have had some bad behavior in our section, not just cheating.

    And the kids get sanctions, not sure if that is the right word,
    but they can not play USTA tournaments for periods of 1 month, to 3 months to 6 months.

    However, that does not seem to deter these kids because the penalty doesn't mean that much to them.

    They are right back at it.

    And I haven't even spoken about the parent's being suspended.

    Two parents just came back from a 6 month suspension.

    And a different dad, who had a 3 month suspension, wrote on his blog that it was a nice vacation from the USTA....

    The silver lining is that most of these kids are not getting scholarships or offers.
    I am seeing it now with a senior, 5 star player that is not that far from blue chip numbers, who has a terrible reputation.
    It is November, and while everyone else in his position here has an offer, he doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  19. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Let me give you a example of how cheating helps getting into Duke on scholarship.

    During my kids sophomore year at the California Bowl G18, (important year for college) she played a girl who cheated on the score. Not once but in both sets. Claiming that the score was in her favor instead of my daughters.
    What was really bad was this girls dad was just outside the court next to the net post, standing both sets. He did nothing to show his daughter that she was making a mistake. He would often cheer, and after the match, he gave his daughter a big hug!

    This home schooled girl from the mid**** is now playing for Duke with a scholarship!
     
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  20. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Well, we now have entered territory that will be sure to anger some on this board.

    But, yes, my rough calculations are most (75%) of the kids who cheat are the homeschooled academy kids.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  21. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Of course, they are the ones that have made tennis the priority of their life.
    With that, it puts tremendous pressure on both the parent and child.

    But there are kids that have the talent and drive where home school or an academy is beneficial to them.
     
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  22. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    There was a girl in Socal who was found to be older than she actually was. (I think she was 5 yrs. older)

    In the 12's she was much bigger/taller than the biggest girls. She dominated the younger age groups, but in the 16 & 18's she wasn't as dominate.

    The funny thing was that her mother was at every match, sometimes they even brought family to watch.

    That has to be the worst case of cheating.
     
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  23. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    Misses the very majour reason of cheating: an experience!
     
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  24. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    I do not think it is cheating;)
     
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  25. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Okay, once again since some simply missed my point by a ton. So lets try once again.

    In those specific cases where I have discussed a loss in a tournament where the parents said:

    1. My kid lost because he/she was cheated.
    2. My kid lost because he/she went for shots while the other player pushed.

    In about 2/3rds of those cases it was imagined. There was no cheating and the other kid was setting up points, not pushing.

    There is real cheating in junior tennis and imagined cheating in junior tennis. Just like tennis parents look the other way when their kid's cheat, lots of others use non existent cheating as an excuse for a loses.

    This thread is classic. Note how some girl got a scholarship to Duke because she cheated....gee, no other reason, she cheated on the score twice and got into Duke. That Duke coach must be a fool to admit her, she will just lose at Duke when she can't cheat. Another posters son is cheated 20% of the time. Another says its those "home schooled academy kids" who cheat.

    Funny how Brad and Deiton Baughman, at the top of the rankings NEVER EVER blame cheating, never blamed a loss on cheating. I talked to Harrison's dad all through juniors, Sekou Bangoura's, and more top players....NONE ever complained of cheating.

    But all these posters whose kids are not at the top of the rankings....all because of those cheaters. I guarantee you that the vast majority of times you think you were cheated, your kid lost, and the vast majority of what you are calling cheating is imaginary. When your kid won, no cheating....weird how that works out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  26. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Your such a tool!

    You have a 8 year old that has not gone through junior tournaments, yet you talk as if you know everything. Go ahead and pull crap from the internet to prove you point. You can't give any personal experiences, so you make up things that you think proves your point.

    I just don't get you, how could you call yourself a coach, but post things that you have no first hand experiences with?????

    You need to read the post carefully, think not twice but wait till the next day to post your response.

    Like I said before, the post about quiting this site, and "volleyball shorts" really show your state of mind.
     
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  27. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    My kid hasn't lost to a cheater (because of the cheating) in over two years.

    But 10% of the kids he plays are cheaters. (He beats most of them & loses to some). You don't have to lose a match to one to recognize that it's happening.

    It's not complaining about it.....it's calling a spade a spade.

    Anybody have that hilarious you tube of the little Roviera girl getting hooked at last year's Eddie Herr Semifinal ( or was it orange bowl??) by the russian girl??

    Happens all the time at all levels at all ages.
     
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  28. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    This is to something you have to experience to understand. Watching tens of hundreds of your kid's (or kids) matches (some sets, some in its entirety) can give you a better perspective on this.

    TCF, you do not have a dog in the fight when you're watching matches now. Wait till your daughter starts competing (and don't tell me godson, nieces or nephews etc...). You'll know the feeling when you see opponents start ripping her off.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  29. MarinaHighTennis

    MarinaHighTennis Professional

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    My school got out 2nd round in CIF because of cheating (9-9 lose). The Cheat team ended up losing to a school we beat (8-10).
     
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  30. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ................................
     
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  31. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I joined the board hoping to learn more about the world of junior tennis.

    The problem is that when you voice anything you have seen/experienced in the actual junior world,
    and it doesn't vibe with what someone else thinks it should be...
    you get ripped to shreds on this board.
    And in fairness, it is a few posters...

    My first week on this board, I was accused of being DB's dad..
    Since then, I have been told I am 5 other people.

    I am on other boards, not tennis related,
    and there is a level of respect, civility and sharing where everyone tries to impart their experience, advice, and wisdom.
    Is there some disagreement?
    Yes, but it is done in a polite tone with examples and information to help explain why they have another point of view.
    The other point of view is often helpful too. There is never any name calling. Period.

    This board seems to have more dissent and sarcasm than others
    which is disappointing as less people contribute.

    TCF who has a 7 year old daughter is an expert on the world of tennis although:
    His daughter is too young to play national tournaments.
    He himself never played in juniors...
    He never played college tennis...
    He picked up tennis in his 20's
    and knows what Macci would do in all situations...

    Now, that would all be fine as he does have a lot of technical advice to give, and I think it is appreciated,
    but if he disagrees...
    Well, let's say it is not civil.

    The volleyball shorts is a perfect example...
    When the first person voiced disapproval at the attire of a teenage tennis player, that poster was jealous...
    Then there were more jealous posters.
    And his six year old daughter, at the time, wore them
    and there was nothing flirtatious about volley ball shorts. ( yes, I agree not on a 6 year old).

    On and on it went. Some posters he thought were sick... Other posters he called deranged.

    Here is a quote from another poster to TCF -

    Regarding your general desire to "educate" us - some of us are parents of teenage girls who played tennis tornaments for many years. Our kids actually played against these "big names" mentioned around here, we may know their parents and all kind of inside information. We also saw our daughters progress from kindergarden to high-school age with all the issues associated with this growth. Doesn't it look funny when a father of a 6yo who never played a single tournament decides to educate us? And if we do not agree with your "education" then we are all seriously damaged.


    When I posted having an older daughter who doesn't play tennis, so I couldn't be jealous....
    But, tried to explain in a logical way that when your daughter is 13,
    you really don't want 18 year old boys checking her out,
    The attack I got on those comments was off the charts.

    Then, TCF set up a new thread on the merits of volleyball shorts.

    If this is a board where one passes on tennis advice and acquires knowledge,
    the accusations, name calling, sarcasm (which I am guilty of too) and attacks really need to stop.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
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  32. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ....................
     
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  33. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Deiton Baughman has won the Southern California "Sectionals" in each age group 10's 12's 14's and skipped the 16's and finished second in the 18's this year ..... has also been in the finals of the sectional doubles in each age group doubles and mixed . Recheck your homework .
     
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  34. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Mr. Baughman did boxing and wrestling took up tennis by watching video and has a son that would walk through your player using a one handed backhand instead of his 2 hander and would do it without cheating .
     
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  35. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Let's not get off topic and turn this into another BB & DB thread.
     
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  36. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Well I have my take home message from this thread....."the best kids" are never cheated. So the cheaters have all gotten together at a secret location and decided "don't cheat the top kids", only cheat the lower ranked kids.

    Pure comedy gold, the stuff only a typical excuse making American tennis parent can provide!
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
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  37. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Goodness, that is a lot of typing. You are taking a message board way to seriously.....I can't remember messages from last week, let alone months ago. Just put me on your ignore list and it sounds like your life will improve.
     
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  38. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Well I have been told on this thread that the "best kids" don't get cheated. So as long as my girl is one of them, sounds like we won't have any issues. Another reason to work hard in practice.
     
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  39. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Some of the "best kids" are actually the biggest cheaters. You will learn this the hard way. It really amazes me when they cheat out of the habit when playing clearly weaker opponents.
     
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  40. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    I wonder if cheating is more prevalent in girl's tennis than boy's.
     
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  41. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Brad is very relevant in this regard. Through the years he has had a multitude of reasons when his boy lost. Injury, sickness, personal issues, playing a pusher, other boy lying about age, etc.

    Yet at no time has he ever said his kid was cheated on court calls. If anyone would have the leanings to say his boy was cheated, it would be BB. There is no doubt that if DB had ever been cheated, we would have heard about it.

    Another poster says his boy was cheated "20% of the time". To me this is interesting. 2 boys playing the same junior tennis circuit. One is never cheated and the other is cheated 20% of the time.
     
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  42. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    I hear you TCF - this whine and cheese topic always turns me off. When a parent or kid starts talking about how they lost because they got cheated, I tune them out and walk away.

    I taught my kid early on how to deal with Cap'n Hook and even though it seldom happens, kids have to learn how to handle a hook just like a pusher, a low slice, or someone that likes to chip and charge. My kid can't control his opponent's vision, but he will protect his court. He may not always win the argument or even the match, but he will always shake his opponent's hand and sleep with a clear conscience knowing that he played by the rules. As a parent, that's all you can ask for.
     
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  43. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Boy's, that's why in men's college tennis they play the "let balls" on the serve.
     
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  44. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    DB. Learned early what a line judge was and what there therefore also after 2 bad line call I have seen DB call a ball out in the middle of the ralley '' the ball landed on the T '' it works really well , sends a strong message.
     
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  45. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    N1C and TCF are correct - better players are not losing matches because they are being cheated. Most of the time better players are mentally stronger and they can handle cheating better. Cheating is not just about losing a few points - it is about psychological pressure, especially with girls. OMG if I start winning she will start cheating, what do I do!!! Better not to try to win at all! You have a gamepoint stolen from you - now this point will stay in you head until the end of the match.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
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  46. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    My son's coach went with him to a match and watched my son get cheated,
    and not able to keep a ref...

    His advice at the next tournament ( a few days later) if he was cheated again was to do somewhat what you suggested,
    which was to have a ball land in the middle of the court, catch it with his hand, and say it was out.

    I was not with them, mostly to keep costs down as the airfare adds up,
    and I don't think I would have been pleased with that advice.

    But, my son told him no, he wouldn't do it as it would put him in the same league as the other kid.

    I appreciate you sharing your story, as I see that the coach was not out in left field, although I still wouldn't want my son to do that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
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  47. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .............................
     
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  48. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    The majority of posts here are not about claims that our kids used the excuse that they lost because of cheating, but how cheating is prevalent and wide spread in junior tennis.
     
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  49. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    This is so true.

    Unless the match is extremely close and the cheating comes at critical points in the match, most of the time, a player will not lose a match because of being cheated out of 1 or 2 points.

    The player loses because of the psychological games being played and not knowing how to handle it.

    And you are also correct, some girls seem to be masters of all of the silly psych games.

    I saw this happen over the summer where this girl who was not a very good player was playing one of the top girls in our section. The cheating girl kept stopping play and complaining loudly about calls (calls that were clearly correct). She kept leaving court and going to look for a line judge. And all other kind of BS. In the end the cheater lost really badly.

    The good player was just kind of snickering and rolling her eyes every time the cheater would start up her nonsense.

    However, I am sure that her antics have probably worked when she plays someone closer to her own skill level because all of that BS would be unnerving to a lot of less experienced players.
     
    #49
  50. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Messages:
    994
    Another great post by Brad, anyhow whats the difference using the excuse that DB lost due to injury, illness, back to back tough matches and cheating.

    Sad to hear that Brad would encourage Deit to cheat.
     
    #50

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