Video at tournaments

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by gplracer, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I was about to put my gopro up at a usta jr. tournament when I was told no video tapping. The td told me there is a lawsuit. Anyone hear news of this?
     
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  2. tenacitytennis

    tenacitytennis New User

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    Ive heard this from some but seen some record still... what section are you in as I heard about this in the Eastern section?
     
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  3. lala28m

    lala28m New User

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    I've been wondering about this. If it's a public venue and logic say you can record your kid playing in a band or a baseball game, etc, what's the difference with a USTA tennis match. I have heard of parents recording and the other child parents complaining and shutting it down. Whats the deal? What are the rules on this?
     
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  4. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    This was in the southern section (Georgia).
     
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  5. OneTennisParent

    OneTennisParent New User

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    Again, I apologize for the length of this post. This subject has been a sore spot for me for years.

    I pushed this issue in my section, and all the way up to White Plains legal dept. Their decision, predictably, is to defer to the complainers. You can put your camera up, but if anyone complains, you have to take it down. I asked the USTA to make a decision either allowing any parent to video their own kid's match, or deny all video. They would never ban all video since they derive a profit from the video of national championships, so I was hopeful they would do the right thing and allow us to video to make our players better, thus advancing the sport as a whole.

    They came back with ridiculous rationale for limiting our right to film our own kids with things such as "what if there is an objection on religious grounds?" Really? Its a voluntary event, in mostly public venues. If you don't want to participate you don't have to. What if my opponent objects to tennis attire on religious grounds? Do I have to clothe my player in a burka to satisfy them?

    Every football, soccer, and baseball game is filled with parents filming the game, but tennis is different? Why? There is no law prohibiting the filming of minors with or without their parent's permission as long as you do not disclose any personal information about them, or otherwise defame them. You don't have to ask everyone's permission when you take a video or picture at Disney do you? Or the beach, or at any group event.

    The USTA is afraid of being sued by the whiners. We who only want to help our player improve are unlikely to cause a stink, so we are kicked to the curb.

    Ever notice that to participate in national championships you have to sign a release allowing the USTA to video or take pictures of your player, or you can't play? But they won't extend that right to you taking video of your own kid.

    Some psychotic parents think that you will use the tape to gain an advantage over their player. Please. I have so much to work on with my player, I don't have time to worry about theirs. I am not trying to video their player. I am taping mine. It is unfortunate that theirs keeps getting in the frame.

    All the USTA would have to do is put it in the Code that you can tape your own player. There are already laws that apply to misuse of video of minors. The USTA doesn't have to do anything but allow you to live within the existing laws, but they won't.

    If any of you know a tennis enthusiast who is also a lawyer, perhaps they could file a suit on our behalf asserting that our first amendment rights are being infringed.
     
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  6. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    I would have told the TD to kiss my #ss as I have done before and continued to video tape , would have insisted on the police being called only to bring up Rodney King and then let the police explain to the TD "a non lawyer" that its not against the law !!! the TD wont want the police involved and you will be ok to use your camera which is ok still in this country .BTW maybe at a private club there could be a prob but if they open the doors to the public for and event then things can change .
     
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  7. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    btw this is another reason why tennis is dying !!!
     
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  8. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I would think the USTA would favor it, maybe being on film would deter some of the cheating.
     
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  9. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    The USTA's answer is the right one. You can film as along as there is no objection. Who would object? The only possiblity is the opponent. Whatever the opponent's reason for objecting in the interest of decency and "getting along" just don't film that day. Most tennis parents will not object. I have seen parents filming and the thought of someone objecting never even occured to me.
     
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  10. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    You can also offer a copy of the video to the opponent. Might make a complaining parent a willing one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  11. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    I don't have problems when I know for sure that it's my child's opponents parent video taping.

    Having a daughter, there have been many times when there are creepy looking guys photographing/video taping random matches at tournaments.

    I once confronted a guy photographing my daughter as to who he was, he stammered and said "I'm a trainer", yea right.
     
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  12. lala28m

    lala28m New User

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    I think it's usually pretty easy to discern who your opponents' camp and parents are.
    But..Wow. Beyond creepy. I've had that happen to me with a stranger in a park-setting tennis match (him trying to photograph me, an adult female), but never thought to look out for this at a kids tourney. You just walk around assuming everyone is a parent, coach or a tennis official. Sometimes it boggles your mind how much more depraved this world is than your brain can even begin to imagine. Something new to to look out for and worry about...
     
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  13. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    i would have stammered him into a choke-out
     
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  14. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    Coach: How did you become a tennis parent? Most of the tough crazy guys from my neighberhood are either dead or in jail. The real crazy ones became cops. You must have been a cop.
     
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  15. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Real creepy.

    In fact there was a poster on this forum who was threatening to roam around S Fla to find a particular 8 year old girl and take a video of her against the stated wishes...on this forum....of her parent. The post was left up for a while but maybe it has been deleted now.

    Regular visitors to the forum will know I am speaking the truth
     
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  16. lala28m

    lala28m New User

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    Umm. Yes, it was taken down. I think it was the same thread in which the said parent offered to set up a fight with third poster (who claimed to be female) to settle whatever issues (there were many) were flying back and forth in that particular thread. All of it was childish and out of hand, honestly... The whole thread was craziness. None of the featured parents exhibited model behavior, but I strongly disagree with what you are insinuating.

    Child predation is a real and serious societal and personal tragedy. Bringing it up just to throw fighting words or digs at someone does a disgrace to actual victims. Not cool.

    From what I can remember, the only obsessions any posters had in that thread were with each other. Poster#1 bragged about his (not tournament tested) tennis prodigy, (while several others kept explaining the benefits of tournaments, rankings etc), and poster#2, a (recognized) parent of a ranked junior, took to heart the slamming of his own kid's life work (tournaments, points, rankings, wins etc) basically said "put your money where your mouth is". At face value, the gist was disproving the first posters repeated claims of a secret child tennis prodigy, and not much else.

    No, the 2nd poster should not have said he was tracking anyone down, to prove or disprove secret talent, magical powers,...any reason. Obviously, over the line. But the two guys were in, what equates to, a fist fight or a you-know-what measuring contest...of each other. I'm sure the thread was taken down for numerous good reasons. But "over-the-line" does not automatically mean "child creeper". Both posters made many over-the-line comments. (Personally, when poster#1, the allegedly grievenced here, made comments about a different little girl's looks, it made me very, very uncomfortable. Pointing out why she can't possibly have a sponsorship, based on this and that in her looks. He admitted having zero information, his remarks were "educated observances". Tops it off with how his own kid does have the look. Horrible. The only thing that stopped me from defending an obviously super cute kid, is my mantra "Can't argue with stupid"). But neither of these 2 were banned, so your insinuation about the motives of one of them cannot be true or are not as obvious as you suggest. At least, not to me nor to the administrators of this forum.

    It is one thing to disagree with other posters, and obviously poster#1 +poster#2 have had an axe to grind with each other for probably longer than grown adults should, but lets be honest, that's a tough accusation you are slinging. There are real victims of abuse out there whose plight and cause is being watered down by such frivolous use of this serious accusation.
     
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  17. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Nice recitation. But I'm sticking with my accusation:

    Real creepy.
     
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  18. TCF

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  19. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Yup. Thought I covered that base here, but it is in the Orange Bowl thread.

    Bottom line: I think all that stuff from the other poster was real creepy. Lala does not.
     
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  20. lala28m

    lala28m New User

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    I admit, I do not remember the street walker part. If my memory is lacking in that respect, my apologies, clearly an inappropriate comment, no matter who the parent(s). Not appropriate. Nothing in that thread was appropriate. It was a kid bashing catastrophe.

    I, respectfully, maintain that the 2 posters were both throwing digs at each other, both kept bringing each others kids up within the argument. Obviously, this will NEVER lead to anywhere good. Maybe a lesson to be learned??

    At least these parents were there to defend their own kids...what grabbed my attention from the get-go were the comments about the (not sufficiently good enough) looks of an 11yo CHILD... A GIRL. What can you be thinking when you write that?? This was obviously a gloves-off fighting kind of guy. I didn't engage, but am I surprised that someone did? No, I'm not.

    So if you want to ask me about what I find creepy from that thread, I can make you long a list. But neither guy will come out looking very good. Point is, you can't cry foul if you started (the dirty) fighting. Hard to feel bad for either guy. At the same time, I have only been following for a few months, so I can't speak for what has happened in the apparent years of this back and forth.

    I thought this was a forum was about tennis and how to take notes from each other about how to better our kids. Not bash each others kids. Of course, all of them need improvement, they are children.

    Lastly, not to get personal, but let's say for the sake of argument, that myself or someone close to me, was a victim of child predation. It is an actual tragedy that too many children endure. Let's not involve real victims, real crimes and compare them to this silly back and forth argument.

    A lot of the comments were beyond stupid, but there is little evidence that anyone had motives to abuse children. And like I pointed out, the forum administrators, who are in some way responsible for fairness and legality here, did come to the same conclusion. It's a silly Internet argument, that's it. Let's get over it and try to be more respectful of each other and our children going forward. Lesson learned, for some...
     
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  21. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.

    After all, the moderators did delete the posts. I am glad they apparently came to the conclusion that more than just a "silly internet argument" as you put it, was involved.

    (If all posts connected to silly internet arguments were deleted, there'd be practically nothing left here.......including this little repartee!!)
     
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  22. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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  23. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    ___________________________________________
     
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  24. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I still do not know where the USTA stands on this issue. It appears to be up to the tournament director.
     
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  25. Woolybugger

    Woolybugger Rookie

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    If you go against the wishes of the TD, what's to stop him from defaulting your kid from the tourney? You can protest all you want, and write a letter to the section chief, but the fact is you have to go home.

    I agree that USTA or each section needs to codify the rules regarding videotaping. These days anyone can just pull out a phone and record an hour of video. Most of them are just taping their own kid for improvement purposes, which I see nothing wrong with.
     
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  26. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    There is nothing in writing or in the Friend at Court that specifically allows or disallows someone setting up a camcorder to record their kids match at a juniors tournament.

    As an official, I do not know what specific laws apply to specific states, counties, or the nation regarding privacy and minors, etc.

    What we have basically been told is that if someone requests that their child's match NOT be recorded, they should make the request to the Tournament Director, and the TD should probably respect that request.

    But, there is nothing official.
     
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  27. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Thanks Woodrow that is more information than I had before.
     
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  28. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    In Knoxville at the Bullfrog a couple weeks ago you could video if both parents said it was o.k. Only saw one time that a parent said no to video.
     
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  29. anhuynh16

    anhuynh16 Hall of Fame

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    As I player, there are some parents who do this. Personally I HATE it, and I'm not sure what to say to them.
     
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  30. Chemist

    Chemist Rookie

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    I asked both TD and ref if I could tape a few of my son's matches at 18s sectional championship a couple of weeks ago. The ref was laughing at me for asking him this. No need to ask for permission from other parent either. Video taping seems to be an issue for girls only.
     
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  31. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Nice post.
     
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  32. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Oh no, not again. :confused::oops:
     
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  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think allowing unrestricted taping of minors is a bad idea. How do you make sure it is the kid's parents? Is it the job of the other kid's parents to verify this? I don't think so. Is it the TD's responsibility to patrol this? What if one parent is biological but has a "boyfriend" who is doing the taping? And that guy is a creep whom she has known for a week?

    The onus should be on those who want to shoot the video. They should present their credentials to the TD, the TD should ask the other kid's parents, and only then allow the request.

    As a good example of what might happen, there is the recent case of the high school pole vault girl. Her pictures led to several obscene comments leading to huge distress to the parents.

    Even journalists have limited First Amendment rights, and their own code of ethics. For example, they can film a general scene but cannot keep focusing on particular people. Has nobody noticed how faces are blurred in such situations? What makes anyone think that they can focus on a minor female kid for 2 hours and claim it is their "right" and then out it up on the Internet for anyone to mock and creeps to pursue? Totally irresponsible attitude of entitlement and a contempt for others' feelings.
     
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  34. Trippisthebest

    Trippisthebest New User

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    Honestly I think the USTA needs to favor every way to make a player better as United States tennis is dying. USTA Officials need to look at this. THERE ARE ONLY LIKE 6 or 7 PRO AMERICAN TENNIS PLAYERS IN THE TOPP 100. WE NEED TO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MAKE U.S. TENNIS BETTER.
     
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  35. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    How does this differ from parents videotaping little league baseball games or pee wee football games, where the filmed subjects are all minors?

    As someone posted earlier, I think the issue boils down to the fact that some of the filmed subjects are girls.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
     
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  36. lendl1986

    lendl1986 Rookie

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    There's usually a parent filming at basketball, baseball, and soccer tournaments. Never heard of an official asking them to stop.

    I can't understand why some parents and tourney directors would be against it.

    I have taped 10s of matches at the adult level, for what its worth. Never had a USTA official or an opponent decline.
     
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  37. Rattler

    Rattler Rookie

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    What does that have to do with this thread?
     
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  38. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    Well, I can see where some cautious, overprotective (?) parents of minors who are girls might assume the worst about people filming their daughters as they're competing.

    But I don't see how that differs from fans filming minors who are girls competing in a juniors diving competition or girls high school volleyball or girls basketball.

    I think it just comes down to these parents assuming the worst when it comes people filming their daughters playing tennis.

    Personally, I think these parents are slightly neurotic and it might say something about the mentality of some "tennis parents" in general.
     
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  39. North

    North Professional

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    It's amazing what you see when you quietly watch a lot of matches at these tournaments. I'd always seen coaches taping matches or parts of matches, often concentrating on some particular aspect(s) of play - footwork, BH, etc. But, over the past year or spo, I have started to notice people (usually parents) taping matches to document cheating or bad behavior.

    In one case a kid went (on his own, without the parent's involvement) to get an official for problems with the opponent's line calls. The Dad was, however, filming and got on tape the other kid changing the score on the flip cards on the side of the net. That would have been very hard to prove if the cheater (and the cheater's parent) started self-righteously iinsisting he was being falsely accused. As it was, the kid who changed the score was DQ'd from the tournament and suspended for a few months because there was proof.

    The TDs are spineless in capitulating to anyone who objects to people who simply want to film their own child or student for learning purposes. But I have occasionally seen them actually get proactive in overseeing a match when the parent comes right out and says he/she is filming because their childs opponent behaves so badly or cheats like mad as soon as the official leaves the area (which is what typically happens).

    I totally understand the objection any parent might have to a potential stranger filming their child. That would freak me out, too, I think. But perhaps the default should be that if there is contention about a player's behavior or not following rules, that the other player has the option to film to support complaints.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
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  40. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    Just curious, but how would you feel if your child played pee wee football, little league baseball, or soccer and there were strangers filming your child while he/she was playing?

    What are all these tennis parents worried about?
     
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  41. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    Incidentally, I've seen girls in the G12 group at a USTA tournament constantly question each others lines calls to the point where an official had to stand there and call the lines.

    It's sad when children that young can't trust each other to call a good, clean match.
     
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  42. North

    North Professional

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    Good question. I have no objection to having matches or games filmed, per se, for teaching purposes. No reason a parent or coach should not be able to do that.

    There are, however, some creepy people in the world, so I would be leery of a total stranger hanging around filming children in any setting.
     
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  43. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    I see your point. I just think it's difficult to discern who the creepy people are at times.

    I think there are as many spectators who are genuinely interested in filming some great quality juniors tennis as there are parents/coaches who are interested in filming for their own nefarious purposes.

    Just ask all those young sexually abused victims of priests who were trusted, respected pillars of their communities.
     
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  44. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    Another point I wanted to add is that most if not all tennis tournaments are spectator sports where filming should be allowed, UNLESS it is explicitly prohibited (e.g. professional golf tournaments).
     
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  45. North

    North Professional

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    I don't know about those proportions, but you are right in that premise. And, really, if the tournament is open to the public (different story if access is controlled in a private setting), I would think anyone has the right to film at will. It may be one of those "parent paranoia" things (don't ask who made that nifty little phrase up lol) that you can't help but think about from time to time.
     
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  46. omega4

    omega4 Rookie

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    You're right. I'm not sure about those proportions as well, but I do believe in that premise.

    You're also right that if a tournament is open to public spectators and filming isn't explicitly forbidden, then it's open game to film players regardless of how they or their parents feel about it.

    I also think you're right about parents' objections to filming of players being a "parent paranoia" thing regarding tennis parents. I haven't come across any football, basketball, volleyball parents crying "foul" with regards to their kids being filmed.
     
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