Video hitting some serves - critique wanted

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JackB1, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for the compliments, but I do want to improve my serve. Yes it's "sufficient" for my level, but I don't want to stay at my level :)
     
    #51
  2. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    just pause the youtube video, and press the right arrow
     
    #52
  3. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    so you are just quickly hitting play/pause/play/pause ??
    that's not really slowmo
     
    #53
  4. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    no, every time you tap the right arrow (on your keyboard !), it advances a few frames
     
    #54
  5. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Alternatively, the windows media editor will slow mo your video as well.
     
    #55
  6. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Definition: The Target Plane is the plane that includes the tennis ball at contact and the imaginary target inside of the deuce or ad tennis court. This plane should be parallel to the perpendicular to the racquet string bed during the impact. The Target Plane basically determines the boll velocity direction. We shouldn’t change amount of the arm pronation, because it is almost impossible to control, in order to change boll’s direction. It’s much easier to alter direction of the Target Plane. Always keep the range of the arm pronation around 90°.

    Let’s analyze Stosur and your arm actions before contact.

    [​IMG]

    In pic.1 Stosur longitude axis of the racquet is parallel to Target Plane. In pic.3 longitude axis is perpendicular to the Target plane. She rotates her racquet by using internal shoulder rotation (ISR) around 90°.

    In pic.4 longitude axis of your racquet is already perpendicular to Target Plane. Thus you cannot use, before contact, internal shoulder rotation at all. That’s why you apply ISR after contact, but that doesn’t make any sense. With this technique you never are going to get powerful and consistent serve. :confused:
     
    #56
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    thanks,
    I felt that was the place to start, since can't do some of the other things till that
    is adjusted.
     
    #57
  8. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    sigh... Toly strikes again.

    The pictures you posted of Stosur are of her hitting an advanced kick serve. That swing path, angle of attack, pronation, timing, contact point, body position and movement checkpoints are all different than what the OP is trying to achieve. He's trying to learn a flat serve or a standard slice serve.

    He need pics of a regular federer flat or slice serve or something like that. Not a stosur kick serve. :roll:
     
    #58
  9. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Hey, it's tough enough to watch yourself and tougher still to hear some of the
    comments and how they come across. I say cut him some slack, even if he is
    a bit sensitive about it, :)

    JackB1, What part of Atl are you in? I might could get by and help you some if
    you are interested. Either way, looking fine over all and just keep cleaning things
    up a bit at the time...for a lifetime:)
    Thats how it goes for all of us.
     
    #59
  10. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    toly's analysis is still valid though.
     
    #60
  11. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes maybe, but i wouldn't recommend copying the motions in that sequence. there's almost no torso rotation towards the net on a kick serve.
     
    #61
  12. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    we need one of charliefederer's pics. looking for one now...
     
    #62
  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    #63
  14. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]

    Can you see white line next to red arrow? :twisted:
     
    #64
  15. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes. can you see the angle of chest related to the net?
     
    #65
  16. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    OK....I was on my ipod. :)
     
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  17. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    I am in N. Atlanta near the Marietta border (75 & Windy Hill).
    Yes I would love some help. Drop me a line at jackbandel@gmail.com.
     
    #67
  18. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    OK, I started reconstructing my serve....

    I am now starting with a small rock back and then forward.
    Dropping both arms down and looping the racquet around in
    one continuous motion...no stopping or hitches. It's gonna feel
    weird for a while, but I will stick with it. For now, my serving
    motion looks better, but the results on the court are about the same right now as my old serve. I am having a harder time being as accurate as before, since the motion is longer and moving more...seems harder to hit my spots. I'll try and take another video soon to see if I'm on the right track.
     
    #68
  19. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Well, I read some of the posts. So ... whatever the better players or instructors said.

    From my relatively inexperienced viewpoint, I think, from the vids, that you have a pretty nice looking serve. But that it could be much better, and that you seem to have the potential to make it much better.

    Best of luck. Post more vids.
     
    #69
  20. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    no you are right. i told him kudos for posting! most people on here are just all talk, and never post a video. i guess i found him over sensitive after posting video. i figure if he was posting he wouldnt be so sensitive. my bad
     
    #70
  21. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    can you take a video where it shows the actual contact and a little above?
     
    #71
  22. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    yes I can try and raise the camera angle up next time
     
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  23. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    What do you guys think of this? I posted it here, because it may be helpful - it is a simple way to rebuild a serve.

    I slowed down my serve bigtime like I would learn to play a complicated song on guitar basically. Went to a platform position. My first problem was my feet were moving out of platform and it was causing balance issues. So I made myself hold that base even though it felt awkward. Jack, this may possibly fix your balance issue.

    Focused on the toss, just worked on placing the ball up there instead of throwing it.

    Finally did not worry about the racquet much except making sure to have my palm facing out in the trophy pose.

    This results in very few things to think about so i could achieve the clear mind I feel you need to serve well. I also was serving slower..not going for big pace, just consistency over and over.

    It seems to be working so far. I will try and get in front of my camera this weekend to see how it looks.
     
    #73
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Another way to do this is to stand with both feet pointed towards the net or maybe just slightly angled off the net like how they are at contact and hold that base and practice serving like that. That will help with coordinating balance and the rotation together and it's a good way to feel the arm being thrown around and up from the body rotation. It's pretty good. give it a try.
     
    #74
  25. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Even better. Ok, perfect I will try that. Ever serve like that in matches to groove it under pressure or is that taking it too far?
     
    #75
  26. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Hmm... i don't know about that. You will lose a lot of power that way because the legs aren't involved and then you might try to rotate your hips faster but your legs will be locked so that's not good. You'll see when you try it. However when you try this you'll really get the feel of the torso rotation and arm working together. It highlights the 'whip' action and also makes you concentrate on the correct contact point more since you can't move and adjust your body using the legs on a less than ideal toss. You'll see the benefit when you try it. Hard to describe but it forces you to have more discipline kind of. You have to look up at the ball longer and it makes you hit up more and .... well... just check it out. :)
     
    #76
  27. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Ok I definitely will. It sounds like from that I will be able to get the feel and then go to a platform and be fine.
     
    #77
  28. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    could you do a quick video to show how this looks?
     
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  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    He's saying to serve from a platform stance in the basic position, feet pointed to the your own service line/sideline intersect.
    DO NOT move your feet as you serve! This forces you to add pronation, slowing of the hand, and a faster swing to get the ball to bounce to the backboard after it's initial IN bounce. You need to work on those mechanics before adding the lean the hop of your backfoot.
    You should be able to hit flat serves that bounce thigh high on the backboard without moving either feet with decent hand and wrist coordination.
    So when you add your body movement forwards, it adds that extra 10-15% to your serve.
    But it starts with your hand/wrist coordination, so take away your feet movement right now.
     
    #79
  30. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    #80
  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I'm sure that last video has some meaning and practical application.
    But like throwing a football to learn to serve, it's at the point of being too abstrat, too different than what you do on a serve.
    At GoldenGatePark in SF, we worked all 2.5 -3.5 level players to serve as I mentioned, to give them the FEELING of the wrist hand hand movement, before we let them use their legs into the stroke. Practiced seperately, they can see the EFFECTS of each part, then put it together.
    Practiced together, they don't know if their weakness is from lack of legs, lack of trunk turn, lack of strikepoint height, or lack of swing speed. Just too many parts for a basic serve that needs to be put together.
    Starting facing the opponent, it adds a component you need to take out later...that component of TOO MUCH body rotation to reach trophy position.
    Yes, some player's like Sampras and Fed use a bit of body rotation.
    But Roddick uses little, in comparison, and can still serve an OK ball.
     
    #81
  32. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Regardless, I will try the drill as shown. If it does not work, I will go back to platform, but I see the benefits of the drill.
     
    #82
  33. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    According to the Bionic Serve vids Roddick has the most rotation. His legs are in a neutral position but he has a large differential between the hip and shoulder turn for a lot of torque.

    In this vid roddick's back is faced towards the camera/net and makes contact with body fully facing the net.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9iN1qPaKtw

    comared with Roger who seems to have less rotation

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU

    Besides, it's just a drill that helps identify some aspects of timing and coordination. Not suggesting you should practice this way routinely.
     
    #83
  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Different camera angle, so hard to tell.
    Both guys seem to line their shoulders with their feet, almost exactly, at the trophy position.
    Roddick faces more forward in the prep position.
    Roddick doesn't pull his racket as far back in the initial move to trophy, then pulls it back just before swingin forward.
    Roddick uses more vertical movement. Fed more forward into the court.
     
    #84
  35. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yea. true.
    ....
     
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  36. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    #86
  37. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    still can't see contact on the serve
     
    #87
  38. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    I know :-(. Not much I can do at this particular court unless I use a different angle like from the side of the net post facing me serving.
     
    #88
  39. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    #89
  40. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    what type of serve were you trying to go for in that vid?
     
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  41. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    just a middle of the road hard slice
     
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  42. JohnB

    JohnB Rookie

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    #92
  43. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    No offense but you are just throwing, waiting, then hitting.

    Try this, throw the ball up higher, and when it starts to drop jump and come over it. Your legs seem to be in cement and you aren't generating any power.

    Again no offense but you asked.
     
    #93
  44. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    This is very good slice serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUj4KnzF0cs.

    Kvitova demonstrates completely different techniques compare to your slice serve, that’s why she creates huge speed and sidespin. Pay attention on forearm supination before arm pronation, otherwise you cannot pronate at all. :shock:
     
    #94
  45. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    You don't need to supinate in order to pronate.
    Nobody intentionally supinates on a serve.
     
    #95
  46. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    Okay guys I need some advice here. I need to figure out a plan of attack on my serve. There are many things I need to fix but I can only handle one or two at a time. I realized I need to be realistic about what I can actually fix given my age and physical limitations. I will edit this thread later and list all the fixes I need to make.
     
    #96
  47. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree, focus on 1 thing at a time unless the are very related.

    I suggest to correct the waiter position in conjunction with improving the
    shoulder turn.
    good luck
     
    #97
  48. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    This is again pure speculation!!! Can you provide any proof that supports your statements???????:evil:
     
    #98
  49. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Start fresh. Relearn everything. Will take about a year. You do not need to be a kid to learn again. Your fit enough. Its the old wrong habits that will take a lot of reps to erase.
     
    #99
  50. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the vids. Vids are always good. Good camera angle.

    Your game looks pretty good. You'd probably beat me, but I think it would be somewhat competitive and fun. If you're ever in Fort Lauderdale and need a hitting partner or a match, send me an email.

    Some helpful comments and vids on the serve so far. The thing that stands out the most to me, as some other posters have mentioned, is that it could be more fluid. Actually that last serving vid did look more fluid. Whatever you're doing seems to be in the right direction.

    I've been working on getting more arch (getting my chest to point more up). It seems to be having the effect of ensuring that I look up, and it's also producing higher bouncing serves. That is, more easy power. Not sure why this is so. Maybe it's causing me to rotate a bit more without thinking about it.

    Anyway, thanks JackB1, and to all commenters. This thread has been very informative for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012

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