video: push or pull forehand?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by pushing_wins, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    #51
  2. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    #52
  3. Cheetah

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    lol. what?? You should publish a book.
     
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  4. toly

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    This is true in case of semiwestern/western TS FH. That’s why wrist flexion/extension axis of rotation has to be locked, but wrist ulnar/radial deviation can be unlocked.

    It seems that this message is contrary to your previous post, right? :confused:
     
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  5. pushing_wins

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    i disagree with your theory that the wrist is released along the ular/radial axis.

    i believe in the converse. the wrist moves along the flexion/extension axis (curling toward you as in bowling but not forward as systemicanomaly has suggested), and locked in a ulnar postion for the entire stroke from backswing to follow thru. this locked ulnar postion is evident in john isner and killer forehand (under the section "strong foundations") videos posted above.
     
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  6. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    The de facto standard in my part of the world is more along the lines of Eastern/SW rather than SW/Western. While some players in this area use a Western grip (particularly short junior players), the Eastern and SW grips are much more common. I suppose if I was in clay court country, I might accept SW/Western as closer to the norm.

    I do not teach or encourage the use of a Western grip for novice & intermediate players. OTOH, if a player is a bit more advanced and the Western grip does not appear to present depth or other problems, I will let it be.

    With Eastern/SW grips as the norm, I will stick with my take on the possible wrist positions at contact (and action or inaction prior to contact).
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
    #56
  7. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    IMO, the best FH grip is a carpenter hummer FH grip. This grip allows you to use a racket like a carpenter uses a hammer.

    I believe carpenter keeps wrist extension/flexion more or less locked and wrist radial/ulnar virtually unlocked.

    There are a lot of players who use this approach very successfully, see please picture.

    [​IMG]

    All of them have to keep wrist flexion in relatively stable position, otherwise they hit ball into sky. But, all of them can use wrist radial to ulnar deviation (cautiously) to increase speed of the ball.
    There are also a lot of players who don’t use this technique, but usually their FH wrist actions are much more complicated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
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  8. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    i believe the players you posted all hit the forehand very differently.

    to have better control and to eliminate other variables and nuances, can we agree to use only one player for our analysis? how bout djokovic?

    lets first talk about the ulnar/radial axis.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uKqeCWaPWQ

    look at 11sec. his wrist is alreay in a ulnar deviated postion and maintains it throughout the remainder of the stroke. no change through contact.
     
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  9. Netspirit

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    I understand how pushing is different from pulling and I think they are useful abstractions to study the forehand technique, even if there are always push and pull components in every forehand.
     
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  10. Ash_Smith

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    That's a new one - where's Limp when you need him :D
     
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  11. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I’m very bad with English. Maybe you can suggest anything better?:)
     
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  12. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
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  13. paulfreda

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    Isn't a push really just hitting it out front early ?

    And a pull is hitting it more back near the body hitting it late.

    I find hitting early [push] I need to pronate [forearm turns CCW] thru the ball, kind of covering the ball.
    And hitting late [pull] I am suppinating [forearm turns CW] thru the ball.
     
    #63
  14. BevelDevil

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    Here's at least one coach who uses the "hammer" term (with respect to the 1hbh grip), and contrasts it to a "pistol grip" (though he doesn't use the "pistol" term).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpLApIuLGV4#t=02m09s

    btw, I think this video is terrible. He's encouraging a very whippy backhand that (he basically admits) can't handle "high" balls.



    How you hold a hammer, depends on what you plan on doing with it. Here is a "hammer grip" with a tight angle.

    [​IMG]
    This is how I would hold a hammer if I really had to pound hard.

    Whereas I would use a larger angle (as in your picture) if I were doing light tapping. Of course, instead of stock pictures, we should be taking screen shots of actual carpenters swinging a hammer, but that takes time.
     
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  15. Ash_Smith

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    Maybe it's a US distinction then, it's certainly not widely used in europe, as I said on the other thread, the terms 'hammer' and 'chopper' grip are interchanged over here.

    Cheers
     
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  16. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I extracted 3 frames from your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uKqeCWaPWQ

    [​IMG]
    Figure1. Djokovic hard topspin forehand

    Djokovic hits hard TS FH from baseline. That’s why there should be significant wrist deviations actions.

    In fig. 1.1 the angle between the racket long axis and axis of the forearm (ϕ) is around 90°.

    In fig. 1.2 ϕ= 45°, thus the wrist moved from maximum wrist radial to medium wrist ulnar deviation.

    In fig 1.3 the forearm and long axis of the racquet form straight line. Therefore the wrist ulnar deviation reached its maximum and ϕ= 0°. The racquet rotates around axis of wrist deviation constantly from frame fig. 1.1 to fig. 1.3.

    There is another picture, where Djokovic hits hard flat FH.

    [​IMG]
    Figure2. Djokovic hard flat forehand

    Once again, the racquet rotates (around 90°) from maximum wrist radial to maximum wrist ulnar deviation.

    Both these stroke has nothing to do with WW forehand. If you want to hit hard, never use WW FH.:confused:
     
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  17. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly. This illustrates my point. Holding the racket "like a hammer" or with a "hammer grip" is somewhat meaningless since there are a number of "correct" ways to hold a hammer. The most common usage of "hammer grip" or "chopper grip" is synonymous with a standard continental grip.

    Using the term, hammer grip, to mean a tight-fisted grip (similar to the one shown in your piciture) is less common. I have only seen it used in this manner on the TW message boards and one other site.

    Like the terminology, push/pull, your usage of "hammer grip" is not standard or well defined and tends to create confusion when used.
     
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  18. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Who is calling Federer's FH a push shot? Most consider Roger's FH, particularly given his extreme wrist c0ck, the quintessential pull stroke. This is a good illustration of why I cringe at this terminology. People are not clear on what they mean by these terms. It is not well defined. Thre may be some push and pull elements, but really no pro has a true push FH. It is best not to use the terminology to characterize a whole.

    It is far better to look at certain aspects and see how they differ or compare rather than lump everything into 2 ill-defined categories.
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
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  19. Cheetah

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    With all respect, how can you say push and pull is ill-defined yet say fed's fh is the quintessential pull stroke and fh's have push and pull elements and no pro has a true push fh? it sounds like your definitions of push and pull are well defined.

    and i agree with your last sentence.
     
    #69
  20. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    This is the best illustration to proper particular tennis term.

    How to hold a hummer:
    [​IMG]

    But seriously, why don’t you write good tennis dictionary? :):-?:(
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
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  21. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Read my post again. I did not call Federer's FH the quintessential pull stroke. Most people who use this terminology consider it as such. While I might be able to see some push or pull elements in a stroke, I have any never characterized a whole stroke as either push or pull.
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
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  22. Cheetah

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    you see push and pull elements in strokes but you'd prefer people not to use the terms push and pull? what would you suggest using?

    how would you classify / distinguish fed's stoke vs the stroke in the video in first post without using the terms push or pull?
     
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  23. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Many years ago I bought very big English dictionary and I’ve never used it. This will be my first try.

    The AMERICAN HERITAGE COLLEGE dictionary, THIRD EDITION, Houghton Mifflin Company.

    According to this book:
    Pull – 1. To apply force to so as to cause or tend to cause motion (of an object - my addition) toward the source of the force.
    Pull – 10. Baseball. To hit a ball in the direction one is facing when the swing is carried through.

    Push- 1. To apply pressure against for the purpose of moving.
    Push- 2. To move (an object) by exerting force against it.

    If the racquet is behind of the wrist (force), that would be pull stroke.
    If the racquet is ahead of the wrist, that would be push stroke.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
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  24. Cheetah

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    so if stand in front of someone and place my palm on their chest and exert force on them to cause them to fall backwards i'm not pushing them?

    i don't actively use wrist flexation to exert force on the ball.
     
    #74
  25. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    This is clearly the push.

    Sorry, I was wrong and I corrected my previous post! Thank you!!!

    There is picture, which I hope clarifies meaning of “pull” and “push”.

    [​IMG]

    The wrist/hand transfers forces created by different body parts to the racquet-object. There are also motion depended forces. So, it’s not very simple.:shock:
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
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  26. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I prefer that people not categorize a stroke as a push stroke or a pull stroke. Didn't I already say this at least 3x already? There are multiple elements within each stroke. People are trying to put all strokes in 1 of 2 boxes. There are too many variations to call a stroke a push/pull based on just 1 or 2 elements. There is no standard that I am aware of. Go back and read my posts on the first 2 pages in this thread.

    I prefer not to pigoen-hole/categorize Fed's FH except to say that he usually hits with a fairly straight arm. Aside from that, I have already mentioned a couple of differences. Fed c0cks his wrist more at the start of the fwd swing. His wrist releases somewhat prior to contact. The guy in the video, who I mistakenly thought was the OP, keeps his wrist firm prior to contact but releases it after contact.
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
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  27. Cheetah

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    i'm just playing devil's advocate.

    Fed c0cks his wrist more because of the stretch shortening cycle which is accomplished by pulling the racquet to the ball no? like if you pull a rope to crack it or whip it or twirl it it will lag behind and the end of the rope will 'c0ck' back like fed's racquet right?

    Fed's torso stops rotating when it is facing the net. He usually doesn't rotate his body all the way around. (yes i know he does sometimes). He stops the rotation and then the racquet whips around. This is what happens when you pull things.

    the guy in the video clearly moves the racquet forward w/o support from his torso. it's the same motion as if you were standing next to someone and you tried to push them with one arm to get them to go ahead of you.

    A 'fairly straight arm' is actually a bent arm that has less bend to it. That's the only difference. It's still a bent arm. Yet people call it a straight arm. How come you don't have a problem with that?
     
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  28. Cheetah

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    looks good.
     
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  29. BevelDevil

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    Some points:

    - Did you see the Coach Kyril link I posted above in response to Ash? He used the "hammer" terminology, and I doubt he's alone. Also, his videos are heavily viewed and get high search priority.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpLApIuLGV4#t=02m09s


    - Even if it were true that TW is the only place where X terminology is used, we are discussing these things now on TW, not on some random court in the real world. So perhaps such terminology should be acceptable here. You have a good point though: Caution should be used when using jargon outside of the context where it is used heavily.


    - You are singling out "hammer" for creating confusion, when there are other terms that, imo, create much more confusion. For example, "eastern backhand grip" is incredibly vague since modern usage does not account for heel pad positioning. The fact that "eastern backhand" is used regularly and is assumed to have a clear definition just makes for even more confusion.


    - I think the concept of the hammer grip is important, regardless of what we call it. So if we don't use the term, "hammer", what will we use? You suggested "club grip" before, but I don't like that because of the alternate meaning of the word "club." (I've definitely put thought into finding an alternate word, myself.)

    Even if we could find an alternate term, the only way we could spread this new jargon would be if me, you and maybe two or three other frequent posters collaborated and agreed to stick to such terminology (I'm not necessarily against this if we find the right word).


    - In the threads I participate in, when I mention "hammer" I usually clarify what I mean by it. However, lately, you always seem to jump in and bring up your misgivings about such terminology. (The words "crusade" and "hijack" were once thrown at me for similar actions.)

    I think your anti-"hammer" efforts themselves can cause confusion, at least in the TW threads. If the goal is clarity in TW, consider the possibility that it might be best to let this issue go.


    In short, right now I don't see an alternative to the term "hammer grip", and the concept is too important to leave it unnamed.
     
    #79
  30. boramiNYC

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    Bevel, sorry but I don't see too much importance in emphasizing the hammer style grip as you advocate quite strongly for 1hbh. it's not very conducive in teaching good wrist control IMO. I generally enjoy your posts however. anyways I shouldn't stray too far off topic so..
     
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  31. pushing_wins

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    yes. I see that.
     
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  32. toly

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    It took me around 100 posts to convince you that there are a lot of wrist deviations and a little wrist extension/flexion actions. Wrist radial – ulnar deviation should be unlocked, but wrist extension – flexion have to be partially locked during forward swing.

    It seems the most tt members have never used any hummer. So, carpenter hammer FH approach is not working. Maybe you (or someone else) can recommend a different visual analogy. :):confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
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  33. toly

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    I have the same opinion. Current definitions of the grips are absolutely misleading. Now almost everyone uses very thin racquet handle, but they have different palm sizes. So, it is absolutely impossible to define grips by using index finger knuckle and heel pad of palm placement on different bevels. Maybe we should go back to “V” definition?:confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
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  34. pushing_wins

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    i see it in the photo.

    but ulnar/radial action will impart slice side spin on the ball which contradicts a fundamental of power - inside out swing path whick produces draw spin.

    are we not missing something?

    also, maybe pros subconciously use pistol grip for the reason that it limits ulnar/radial action.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
    #84
  35. boramiNYC

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    V definition is much less precise than index knuckle on palm. heel pad of palm can lay slightly differently amongst the same grip users but the most important indication is the palm index knuckle. this makes a lot of sense since it is THE primary control point of the hand when gripping a stick shaped tool.
     
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  36. toly

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    Definitely you’ve never exercised with hummer. Try to hammer a nail into thick plywood. There will be no brushing motion (slice side spin on the nail), otherwise you bend the nail.

    Wrist motions are absolutely independent and wrist joint don’t know anything about grips.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
    #86
  37. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    In order to apply these modern instructions, we have to know exactly the optimal ratio between the size of the handle and the palm of the particular person. But, nobody knows that!?

    For example, if diameter of the handle is equal to the diameter of pen:) on what bevel should be index finger’s knuckle in case of continental grip?:)
     
    #87
  38. boramiNYC

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    for any size of stick the underlying biomechanical principle is the index finger usually along with thumb is the primary control site of hand. the index knuckle is important for tennis racquet due to general girth of the handle. for a much smaller stick the final control point will move further down the index finger, the farthest point on index finger where it wraps around the stick.
     
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  39. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    If you have pen size stick, I think, for continental grip you put index finger on bevel 8 (not on bevel 1 as usual). Very little girl maybe should put finger on bevel 6 and so on. Thus, we have unique definitions of the grips for different sticks and different persons. These definitions are function with three independent variables:
    1. Type of grip.
    2. Size of palm.
    3. Diameter of stick.
    That’s why, your definition “for any size of stick the underlying biomechanical principle is the index finger usually along with thumb is the primary control site of hand” is not practical for general application. Are you able to explain clearly, how to use this procedure?
    I think “V” would be much better.:)
     
    #89
  40. pushing_wins

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    for a pistol grip, where should the "V" be?
     
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  41. boramiNYC

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    V thing sort of works because it approximates thumb index position. thing is as the grip gets smaller the final control point moves further down the index finger. this final control point will be normal to the string bed for conti grip and it would be constant regardless of size of hand or stick. V method can be off depending on grip and hand size and how loose a grip is held too
     
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  42. toly

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    I'm sorry. The discussion about grips does not clarify anything, but rather generates new questions.:(
     
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  43. pushing_wins

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    if you hold your forearm still and only hit the nail with your wrist action, it will produce sidespin.

    so how do you keep the nail straight (hitting thru the ball)? is your body or forearm motion counteracting this sidespin?

    contact point is the "anchor" point for all elements of a stroke. its not the backswing, good unit turn, leaning forward, leaning back etc etc. do you agree?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
    #93
  44. boramiNYC

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    To me the most important checkpoints of any grip feel are located at thumb and index finger. This might not be universal and I don't say it is or should be. Where in between these two fingers are determined by the girth of the grip, weight of the object, how securely does it need to held throughout the motion. A pen sized stick and something light can be held towards the tip of the fingers. A racquet grip lies more or less in the middle of thumb and index fingers. The third checkpoint is heelpad of the palm below pinky.

    For conti grip, the thumb and index finger are pressed against the two widest bevel and the heelpad presses on the buttcap. With this approach, V changes location depending on the size of the grip but the final control point (joint b/w proximal and middle phalanx of index finger) stays constant for any sized grip.
     
    #94
  45. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    You really should learn something about vectors!!! It is not very big deal.

    See please my new thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6806355#post6806355. :)
     
    #95
  46. BevelDevil

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    I think that a hammer grip makes for a "firmer" wrist. However, this is one of its virtues (although not it's primary virtue). In contrast, a pistol grip loosens the wrist, which therefore requires that a player learn more wrist control.

    However, I think the chief benefit of a "hammer" grip is that it will typically raise the strike zone (as well as widen it).



    Good point about grip sizes. However, if index knuckle and heel pad are both specified, that's a pretty good description of a player's grip, imo. I just don't like relying solely on the index knuckle.


    If we go back the the "V" method, I think it would be important to take into account of the angle of the V, as well as it's position.



    My (hopefully) last word here on the push/pull concept. I think it is a very useful concept if we restrict the meaning of "pull" to refer to the start of the forward swing. If the hand lags the shoulder turn, then it's a pull. If they initiate together, it's a "push." And if you have a push forehand, you probably shouldn't be studying videos of a pull forehand, and vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
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