Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by julian, Nov 30, 2009.
Sorry I could not get through it... this guy loves to hear the sound of his own voice, plus I don't agree with his assessment of hitting ever volley with sidespin.
Picture is worth a thousand words. Might have liked him to cover the open stance also but its good stuff.
check out his website www.tennisoxygen.com. im biased i take lessons from him. there is much to learn from him . listen you will be rewarded
I've always advocated slightly openstanced forehand volleys and extremely closed stance backhand volleys because my volley grip cheats slightly towards the forehand side of conti.
Backhand volley stroke is longer, stance is closed.
Forehand volley stroke is shorter, stance semi closed, or closed it you have time.
I . . . I'm speechless.
Well, not quite.
I just do not understand this at all. I see wrists breaking, and I see racket heads not staying up on low volleys. What is going on?
I mean, I get the idea of having a longer finish on a low approach volley when you're aiming for depth. Given that one's arm is only so long, of course your finish might be out more toward the target rather than a short punching motion with little finish.
But these volleys look really extreme to me, especially the low BH volley.
Funny thing. You know how I mentioned my friend who is trying to learn to volley and is producing all kinds of junky volleys, really short and spinny? I think this must be what she is trying to do.
I think some of these volleys would be necessary in "emergency" situations, but I just don't they look right if you are not under pressure. So many moving parts!
Am I wrong?
I think the vids show a slightly longer stroke than most good volleyers use, but it's a demonstration vid with fed balls.
Real time, real match, you shorten up a bit, employ the legs and punch the stroke.
Why doesn't your opposition just charge the net everytime they hit to your friends backhand volley? They know it's a short sitter.
Sounds like a pretty good series
Wow... I couldn't stand it anymore, either. Only made it to around six minutes - hoping for a revelation maybe. I appreciate the guy's dedication, but I think he could use an espresso before future lectures.
Yeah, these are some odd examples and I would have liked to have seen those volleys in regular speed before all that slo-mo monotone analysis. I don't think that the hitter was using a lot of good elements for his shots, especially on that low ball.
I think it's important to note that with most volleys, hitters generally draw the racquet either right-to-left or left-to-right across the front of their chest. That's more or less "the stroke". Whether the hitter uses that stroke to take the racquet more across the back of the ball (somewhat sideways) or through it depends on how the hitter is oriented to the incoming ball for their volley. With an open stance, the racquet is more likely to move across the ball than with a neutral stance that will allow for more of a path through the ball. Just something that can be useful for productive volley habits and worth paying attention to.
With some of the players that I coach, they don't seem to be able to do anything more than a patty-cake sort of volley unless they get at least a 45 degree turn to either side. While that doesn't allow for any sort of exaggerated stroke, it lets that compact move of the racquet work together with a weight transfer through contact to put nice pop on a volley.
I dunno... something made me want to bring that up. Discuss!
If you remember vids of Clint the Aussie volleying, most of his forehand volleys were openstanced. He had excellent volleys.
Modern ball comes too fast to really close your feet, so just a shoulder turn can do the trick on the fast incomers. On slower balls, a slight closing of the feet is enough.
ok heres 2 singles players with some recognition thier wrist positions and swing paths are similar to the videos.
the videos are of world class doubles players who must know how to volley since their living depends on it. how they hit the ball is how to hit the ball imho
if you look closely the angle of the racquet to the forearm doesnt change when they get to where the racquet head is pointed to the ground. the wrist does NOT break. on the forehand volley with the laying back of the wrist to start there is alittle wrist play. when teaching begginners the tendency would be to slap at the ball. that is why the emphasis on firm wrist thruout.. the wrist is firm on contact but there is alittle wrist movement on the forehand volley with elite volliers.
the players are warming up in a practice session. these are "normal" volleys
for those that talked about stance on the volley heres another video
loading on the outsidefoot then bringing the the inside foot across/foward allows the 45 degree chest angle but more importantly you are tranfering your weight as you hit giving more pop.
agree. on a super fast reflex volley situation ,4 people at the net for example, it may be shoulder turn... hit.. thats all the time you have . the stroke mechanics although abreviated will not change.
the classic volley would not be open stance. imho
Well, you should keep in mind that on lower on a lower volley, the racquet is going to come across the body more - both sides. Whereas on higher shots the action is more in the direction of the path of the ball.
It the backswing, no turning, taking the ball too late or a chopping action that get most players in trouble as compared to any follow thru action. However, the wrist should remain stable in the laid back position, the head quiet with the eyes about ball height, racquet always visible, slight downward path to generate some backspin - these are things that should be emphasized when teaching the volley.
I don't know if its ever been discussed in this forum but a good rule of thumb I use is that if your 1/4 back from net, your max backswing should be 1/4; if your 1/2 back (serviceline), you max backswing should be 1/2 (perpendicular to side fence); 3/4 back ............. well you get the picture.
great video - the follow thru(finishing across to the opposite side of the body) made alot of sense.
I used it in a match and the bite of the slice were nasty. Not only during volleys, I've used it when I am slicing my shots from the baseline.
Very good instruction.
I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to or not, but a common mantra when teaching the volley is to keep the racquet head up. Sometimes you hear instructors say to keep it above the level of the hand even. Easily done on chest high volleys. But how is this accomplished on low volleys unless you're willing to leave alot of knuckle skin on the court or visit the chiropractor regulary it's impractical. It's more about perception of the task at hand.
When you have a chest high volley, the usual feed for learning a volley, the racquet is above the hand at about and the angle between your forarm and the racquet shaft is about 90 degrees. It's the importance of this 90 degrees that needs to be maintained on low volleys even though the hand ends up above the racquet head. Of course with all the getting low and knee bend stuff goes without saying.
^I guess I'm saying that if I saw someone volleying like that and I didn't know they were a pro, I would say the volley looks kind of weird.
I mean, I've been working on approach volleys. If I draw the racket sideways, I will be left with an approach volley that doesn't clear the net. If I take the racket forward rather than sideways, I will get an approach volley that actually goes somewhere. I would think the sideways motion volley has a place, but it doesn't strike me (as a lay person!) as a good basic volley.
In the FYB clip of Fed's volley, it looks almost like a casual warm-up. He doesn't volley that way when Gonzalez rips a passing shot at him.
cindysphinx are you listening???
I think our perception of the instruction might be amiss.
He advocates across the body, but really meaning AFTER hitting the ball, and our arm is connect to your shoulders.
Everything else seems in line with my thoughts of volleys. Forehand volleys can be hit more openstanced than backhand volleys, backhand volleys need really closed stances and longer swing, just about right.
Remember how I always advocate that you swing HARDER on half volleys and low volleys than normal height volleys? Reason could be because you swing across the ball SOMEWHAT, rather than linear path towards your target.
That's true. It is the finish that is across the body.
Larry, yes, I'm listening. I am having some difficulty squaring the reaction to this video compared to poor reaction to the description I posted of my friend's sad BH volley. Remember how everyone said it is wrong to teach that you should slice/sideswipe a volley using a big motion. It seems she is trying to do what is described in the video, and the ball doesn't go anywhere and she has no control. There could be all kinds of other things going on with her volley, but I'll bet this is what her pro is trying to teach her to do.
Your friend might be CHOPPING at the ball, leading with the edge of the racket.
Instruction says to stroke the ball, using more strings, less leading edge.
the" big motion" is part of the problem the concept of "swipe" is the other. the volley is a compact moition/ stroke . not a big swipe. somewhat similar problem people have with their slice backhand.its an underspin shot but NOT a chop. if you look closely at the top volliers the length of there stroke is very short except when they have a high floater and wish to nail it. but you dont have to move the racquet very far to stick a volley if your timing is right and you have your weight transferring. an article in tennisone.com described the volley as a clap coming from the outside of the ball to the inside. not a punch where you go straight ahead. this "tip"punch the volley i think is misleading. if you volley with a forehand and backhand grip this "punch "will work
Yes, correct. As you know, there is some lateral movement on the swing path "maybe" just prior but you are absolutely right in pointing this out.
Their are several reasons why we do this but regaining our balance is a major issue while letting the racquet follow its natural swing path as we recover for the next shot.
Some may argue that its to add sideways spin but that's not the subject of this discussion. Although I don't care for junk ball tennis myself, it has its place and can be used quite effectively.
Stepanek finishes a lot of his BH volleys forward rather than across. Very short finish. He does the work with his legs.
Anyway, I see your point. There are lots of volleys for lots of situations. I kind of think the building block for a player learning to volley is RACKET HEAD UP + TURN + STEP/PUNCH. The racket face angle from continental grip will give you the underspin.
True or false?
True, but mostly we don't have time for the step, so the shoulder turn has to do the work of racketback, not any arms for fast movers.
"step" only comes into play on slow easy putaways, not something you want to warm up using, or expect to get when you play. You have to be aware how to step forwards, but it's the least important. Solid body positioning is more important, and you can employ legs without moving your feet.
^Lee, I disagree. Stepping forward toward the net is extremely important. Sometimes you can't do it, but you can do it more often than you think. If you try to hit a low approach volley with no step in, it ain't gonna reach the baseline. I would say any volley off of a medium-paced ball should have a step in if you are on your toes.
I tend to agree with LeeD on this. Step is only necessary when you actually have to take steps to get your body into position, and you should avoid taking a lot of steps or much of it to volley or poach. Making an exaggerated point one would likely fail if he has to take like 4 steps to get to the ball, no? (I tried and even failed with shots made by a tiny 50-ish lady. Her shots flew at the speed of the badminton shuttlecock!)
So, logically, like leed said "Solid body positioning" is foremost important. I would think that a good volleyer seems like he's already in the spot to volley, instead of running (taking steps) to the shot to volley it.
On the other hand taking one step forward and simultaneously punch a volley always give you power, but that's not what we're talking about, right?
Something that always seems to help me and i hope to put into practice today is to think about biting the ball.
Bite the ball
It helps with balence and getting your body in position and to meet the ball out in front.
Boy, I am starting to think I am in some bizarro parallel volley universe.
Say opponent is at baseline and I am at service line or a tad in front of it, having hit my first volley and followed it in. I split as opponent is hitting. I should not wait for the ball to travel to me. Instead, I should take off toward the ball, closing the net. I may need to take several steps (4 is quite possible) to do this, and I will want all of my weight on that volley if I can catch it above net level.
Say I am at service line and opponent hits dipper passing shot. I will want to get down, keep my racket head up, and step forward into the net to try to get the volley deep and low. If I don't step in, the volley will likely be short, will pop up, or won't be very penetrating.
Say opponent is at baseline and is winding up for a crosscourt shot to my partner. I see the chance to poach and split. If the ball is poachable, I will want to step toward toward the net to give my poach power.
Say I am playing singles and my opponent gives me a short ball. I approach to her BH in ad court and follow the ball to net. She attempts a passing shot. No matter where that shot goes, I will want to step into the volley.
Say I am playing doubles and there is a fast-paced exchange at net. I will probably not have time to step into my shot. If there is a pop-up, I will definitely want to move toward it and then step forward.
I'm not saying I can actually execute all of this, but these are my goals.
Am I crazy?
no you are not crazy . it is a lofty goal its the turn and punch concept id lije you to have an open mind to. give mr 15 minutes to put together my next post
watch these videos . do you see any punches?? maybe bryan bro at 1 minute 30 sec. all the volley have outside to inside swingpath. very bompact. look at the depth the brians get with their volley outside in not punched. dindysphinx you do not know how much i want to see you succeed in tennis because of your enthusiasm and hard work. i dont know your opinion oi my posts but im really trying to help.. next time you are on the court or at your lesson try to "caress" the ball outside in to the spot you want to hit and see how you do. even a high ball put away is a tough love carress .always(most of the time) OUTSIDE IN not a straight ahead ponch what do you think??
Let's NOT expand this thread to approach volleys or sliced shots....
VOLLEY only. Best volleyer on vids on this site is ClintT... he hits most of his volleys semi open stanced, with no clear step forwards. Those are the test of a volleyer's mettle, deep with no forward step.
For a PUTAWAY volley, you step forwards, of course. Putaway volley is something else. It ends the point.
Even at my horrid level, the passing shot is moving easily 70+ mph, and there is no time to step forwards. And most of my doubles opponents have a topspin lob, so stepping forwards to meet the ball is pure suicide.
Cindy, I would tend to agree with you. If I'm warming up my volleys, I tend to stay on the spot and rely on a bit of shoulder turn and arm and racketwork. But when I'm actually playing I always try to step into the shot, for the step (no matter how small) - as well as bringing me closer to the net - to also generate the shoulder turn. In doing so, it also reduces the armwork (to take the racket back) and the racket gets in position to execute a basic, short, simple outside-in punch with little mechanics and movement that can go wrong. If I have a little more time and height over the net, than I can tinker with the stroke to steer it somewhere else, but if I don't then I can play a simple, effective volley that won't be a gift to the opponent, and get set for the next one.
Obviuously, if someone fires a ball straight at you at the net forcing you to play defensive volleys, then there's no time to step into the shot, just set a firm wrist to block the shot wall-like and ensure that you use the power of the incoming shot to propel your own volley. Even if you only manage to block it straight back to your opponent, the fact that you use his pace may mean he has less time and is less ready to tee off at you again. In a match yesterday the receiver on the ad side went backhand straight down the line, which I blocked back at him with a forehand volley, and then backhand again straight at me which I again blocked with a backhand volley in front of me straight down at his feet... and caught him! Other than split-stepping before each volley, my feet stayed on the same spot.
Well I certainly would not agree with this but will agree that time is certainly a factor on many volley shots. Is it necessary to step to hit an effective volley, no but it sure helps at all levels.
When players ignore the step, and haven't much experience, the shoulders end up staying open and the shot becomes all arm. At lower levels the ball is not going 70 mph or anywhere near it so they can and should use the step whenever possible to learn one of the basic/important tenants of the game - whenever possible you should be facing sideways on all strokes. When players are new to the game, this business of getting sideways probably doesn't make a lot of sense so they end up trying to play the game facing forward and using the arm. Guess what, it doesn't take long before they have a brace on this or that and they never learn proper stroke techniques.
i have not watched this clint volley. does he look like edberg????? if the answer is no then why is edberg considered one of the greatest volliers of all time and i never heard of this clint guy regardless how good he is
I like what I see in the Fed volley vid.
Not cause it's Fed, but the leading with the knife edge of the hand, then
the subtle change of direction that brings the racket face to bear.
I think this is what Larry is speaking to
i tried to search for his video and couldnt find it. could you link it please?
i think the thread is going in apple ,orange ,and apricot directions (and a partridge in a pear tree) LeeD seems to be focusing on open stance volley which only happens when you are super pressed for time. so you still split step, unit turn with racquet prep, and make a compact swingpath which i beleive will have some component of outsid in and high to low component. on high volleys you probably will have more foward direction but still out side in,, on low volleys getting back to the op original video more outside in very little foward and definitely no punch imho. on balls you can get your feet into play you will always try to do the 2 step volley. thats my take
Seems to me, basis for any solid volley is control and ball depth, with some pace, underspin, and consistency.
If you can only volley deep with pace by taking a forward step, you have not mastered the volley.
Example.... warmups. You stand just inside the service line, maybe 1', and FEED the first ball to your partner. He smacks it medium hard to you, you volley it no step, back to his forehand for at least 3-5, until one of you gets careless and hits the net or go wide.
Anytime during the exchange, you can go with more pace, deeper, and with more aggressive placement, BUT YOU CHOOSE NOT TO, in order to get some incoming balls besides puff ball putaways. You want you partner to hit aggressive hard, low balls to you, even half volleys and shoetop shots, that is your WARMUP!
You don't need to stand bellybutton to the net and put the ball away.
Anyone can volley deep with pace without a forward step. It is easy. Just take a big 'ol backswing. Or if the incoming ball has a lot of pace, just block it.
Taking a step in will give you more. More of everything that is good about a volley. More depth, more pace, more spin.
If you do not step in on a volley, then all you have working for you is your arm. That is enough in many situations. It is not as good as it can be compared to taking a step forward. Seriously, though. If you were teaching a total beginner how to volley, you wouldn't tell them to step in?
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