******* vs Big 4 this year

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by Agassifan, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Rafa: 1-1
    Nole: 2-2
    Murray: 3-2

    Not bad I'd say
     
    #1
  2. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    He's just about hanging on. Only 2 of the wins are important though.
     
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  3. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    I'd say 3 of those are important. On the same token, only 3 of the losses are important... I am talking about ******* here. Not Federer.
     
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  4. DragonBlaze

    DragonBlaze Hall of Fame

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    But then you could say only 2 of the losses are important (or 3 I guess if you want to include Olympics).
     
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  5. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    He's 2-2 in majors against the top 4 this year, what are you talking about? At the same time Nadal had 2 big wins this year, Djokovic had 3 while Murray had 1.
     
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  6. stringertom

    stringertom G.O.A.T.

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    Like the finest wine, he ages so well! 70+ wins, a major, 3 MS1000's and 16 weeks at #1...all at age 30-31, spotting his main competitors 5 years...he's a classic worth watching over and over again!
     
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  7. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Those are brilliant stats, though. Even if he loses tomorrow he's at 50% of matches won against the whole younger generation of top players aged 24-26 while he himself is 31.

    I wanna see Murray or Nadal have a 50 % record against the next great 25-year olds when they hit 30+. Well, Nadal won't be playing obviously, but Murray.
     
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  8. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Murray at 31 will go 0-10 vs the top 5 players, oh and he won't even be top 5 himself.
     
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  9. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    vs. Nadal (1-1)
    2012 Australian Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 6-2, 7-6, 6-4)
    2012 Indian Wells SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 6-4)

    vs. Djokovic (2-2)
    2012 Rome SF: Novak Djokovic def. Roger Federer (6-2, 7-6)
    2012 French Open SF: Novak Djokovic def. Roger Federer (6-4, 7-5, 6-3)
    2012 Wimbledon SF: Roger Federer def. Novak Djokovic (6-3, 3-6, 6-4, 6-3)
    2012 Cincinnati F: Roger Federer def. Novak Djokovic (6-0, 7-6)

    vs. Murray (3-2)
    2012 Dubai F: Roger Federer def. Andy Murray (7-5, 6-4)
    2012 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Andy Murray (4-6, 7-5, 6-3, 6-4)
    2012 London Olympics F: Andy Murray def. Roger Federer (6-2, 6-1, 6-4)
    2012 Shanghai SF: Andy Murray def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4)
    2012 World Tour Finals SF: Roger Federer def. Andy Murray (7-6, 6-2)
     
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  10. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    2012 Australian Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 6-2, 7-6, 6-4)
    2012 Dubai F: Roger Federer def. Andy Murray (7-5, 6-4)
    2012 Indian Wells SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 6-4)
    2012 Rome SF: Novak Djokovic def. Roger Federer (6-2, 7-6)
    2012 French Open SF: Novak Djokovic def. Roger Federer (6-4, 7-5, 6-3)
    2012 Wimbledon SF: Roger Federer def. Novak Djokovic (6-3, 3-6, 6-4, 6-3)
    2012 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Andy Murray (4-6, 7-5, 6-3, 6-4)
    2012 London Olympics F: Andy Murray def. Roger Federer (6-2, 6-1, 6-4)
    2012 Cincinnati F: Roger Federer def. Novak Djokovic (6-0, 7-6)
    2012 Shanghai SF: Andy Murray def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4)
    2012 World Tour Finals SF: Roger Federer def. Andy Murray (7-6, 6-2)

    So Fed is 6-5 this year against the other top 4 members. But notably 0-2 on clay.
     
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  11. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

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    Primerer you mean.
     
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  12. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Chance to go 3-2 vs Djokovic tomorrow..
     
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  13. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    This is an impressive record against those guys considering the stage of Federer's career. Hopefully he makes it 3-2 against Novak tomorrow. Before Fed retires I want to see him and Nadal battle on some of the faster hard court surfaces and Wimbledon again, I feel like Fed can avenge some losses.
     
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  14. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Well it's hardly noteworthy he's 0-2 on clay. He's only beat Nadal twice in 14 attempts even in his prime, and you'd have to give him the edge against Murray. So he's 0-2 against Djokovic. Hardly shocking.
     
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  15. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Did anyone else beat Nadal twice on clay? Ever?

    He's only lost 6 or so matches on clay in his career since he became a regular on the tour.


    (I did look up all his clay losses one time, but don't feel like doing it now)
     
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  16. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    You mean in a calendar year?
    Federer beat Nadal in '09 Madrid and in '07 Hamburg.
    Djokovic beat Nadal in '11 Madrid and Rome (and would've beaten if they faced each other in RG).
     
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  17. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    You are right. I think when I looked it up it was before Djokovic also did it.
    Can't say one way or another about RG that year, though. It is Nadal's playground. It does say something for Federer, though, that he did manage to beat Djokovic and end the streak.
     
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  18. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    That's what happens when Roger doesn't meet Nadal on clay all the time.
     
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  19. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    .500 isnt bad, but Serena Williams was something like 8-0 vs the so called (lol) top 2 women in the World. She truly is one a kind. No women or man in history has been that dominant over her main competition at that age.
     
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  20. President

    President Legend

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    Her competition is much weaker though. Federer is up against 2 all time greats in their own right (I expect Djokovic to bag around 9 majors or so) and an extremely talented player in Andy Murray (who honestly probably should have the career of someone like Boris Becker, just unlucky that he is playing against such monsters).
     
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  21. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Although I cant stand her Sharapova will probably end up with about 7 majors and be regarded as an all time great, on par or above Venus and Henin due to her career Slam. Azarenka will probably end up with 5 or 6 and be regarded a borderline all time great atleast. Not neccessarily far behind Djokovic's eventual standing in the mens games, and likely well above Murray's when all are said and done.

    Even evaluating all as currently are Sharapova has won 4 majors and has the Career Slam, Djokovic has won 5 and doesnt have the Career Slam. Azarenka is a slam winner and year end #1, and was within a whisker of her 2nd slam in the same year. Murray is a slam winner who has never reached #1. I dont see the edge, unless you consider Nadal who apart from the early slow hard court season was an irrelevance to Federer this year (they didnt play on clay, then Nadal was AWOL the remainder). Anyway if you believe most of this forum Nadal is washed up off of clay (possibly true when he hasnt won a non clay title since 2010 now) and Federer is probably washed up on clay, so they barely co exist anymore.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012
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  22. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Sharapova is such a hot and cold player. She has no middle game, if she on she's great, if not she's average. Basically she probably wouldn't have the same amount of slams if there was anyone good around. Serena can't win every slam, but she is the only truly world class player out there. It's like if Nadal was the only world class player (Fed, retired in 2007 and Djokovic and Murray don't exist) Nadal still wouldn't have won everything. Someone else would have won AO 2010 and 2011, RG 2009, Wimbledon 2012, US Oen 2009 for instance. Maybe Soderling or Berdych or Tsonga would have a few slams. Wouldn't make them any better as players.

    Serena is now dealing with players who offer her as much competition as people like Tsonga offer Federer. At one time she had henin, Venus, Clijsters really giving her a hard time, but now no-one has the game or guts to stand with her.
     
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  23. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Again not a Sharapova fan but lets not delude yourself into thinking she only won slams since someone had to. She denied a peak Justine Henin (who this forum seems to think is some god) 2 slams at the 2006 U.S Open and 2008 Australian Open. She arguably played a large role in ruining Henin's career and legacy to an extent as it left Henin with the stigma of a 1-3 slam finals year at her peak, and with only 1 year as the clear and undisputed #1 (2007, as 2003, 2004, and 2006 all now have question marks, whereas 2006 would be clear had she won that U.S Open final over Sharapova), while the 2008 Australian Open beatdown was part of the start of her loss of confidence, poor string of early 2008 results and subsequent retirement. Meanwhile for all the years of humiliation now at the hand of Serena beatdowns, she even denied Serena the 2004 Wimbledon title and 2004 WTA Championship title. The only major title you can maybe say she won since someone had to was the 2012 French, but then again she could have just not won it and allowed another Schiavone or Na to, but she didnt and instead won a slam on her worst surface (never easy for a non GOAT caliber player regardless your competition) to complete her Career Slam. So as much as I cant stand Sharapova one must give credit where credit is due. She is clearly much more than some random default Champion.

    One would have to dispute your notion Serena is the only World class player out there. Sharapova won 3 of her current 4 games from 2004-2008 when Venus, Henin, Serena, Mauresmo, Davenport, Clijsters were all mostly at a given time around and going strong. She proved herself a World class player a long time ago. Azarenka as well is a World class player, if the field she is ranked #1 (and yes I know Serena is hands down the real #1 and isnt ranked there since she doesnt play enough to cater to the WTA ranking system but that is aside the point of Azarenka being a worthy World class contender) over lacks depth it isnt her fault. The mens is the same as the womens now anyway, 3 or 4 really strong, and nothing after that, no difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012
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  24. President

    President Legend

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    Djokovic is a much greater player than Sharapova ever will be(and I like Maria and dislike Cvac). He's had much more consistency over the last 5 years and has been no one's pigeon. He'll end up with more majors and more titles overall, as well as going deep in basically every event he's played in for the last 5 years as well as total domination last year. Compare their career prize money so far for a comparison of their overall career (fair because they are the same age, so inflation isn't a factor), Djokovic has much more frequently been a factor at the latter end of tournaments for years now.

    Murray again has been a much bigger factor for the past 4 years than Azarenka and his problems were to do with the players in front of him rather than just having a weak game like Azarenka.

    And we haven't even mentioned Nadal yet, who IMO is probably a better champion than Serena herself (not to invoke TMF, but Tennis Channel agrees, having Serena at #14 all time and Nadal at #6).
    I know you are a big fan of the WTA and Serena in particular it seems, but there is a big difference in level and ability between the top of the WTA and ATP right now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
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  25. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Like I said Nadal and Federer practically dont co exist anymore. Nadal seems washed up outside of clay, not even having a tournament on a non clay event since 2010 now (soon to be 3 years). Federer was never a threat to Nadal on clay, and is even less of one now. This year they played twice early on the year on slow hard courts, each winning one, never again after March, and Nadal did not play any tennis after June, so he can barely even really be counted as Federer's competition this year. Either way overall Serena 2012 >>>>>>> Nadal 2012 (even ignoring the fact Serena produced that at 31), and Djokovic, Murray, Azarenka, Sharapova, Federer in 2012 all > Nadal in 2012 as well. Sharapova and Azarenka are who Serena predominantly faced, Djokovic and Murray who Federer predominantly faced, and at this point Sharapova is on a level with Djokovic, and Azarenka on one with Murray, if you are comparing their careers and places amongst their gender in history.

    If Sharapova ends up with 7 or 8 slams (probably a good guess) and Djokovic ends up with 8 or 9 (probably a good guess) their places in history per their genders will be about the same, especialy if Djokovic never gets the Career Slam which Maria managed. Azarenka probably has an even better chance to win 4 slams or more than Murray does.

    Serena btw was ranked #14 before her last 2 slam wins, Olympic Gold, and WTA Championship, all at 31. Looking at the list of names I would already be certain she is atleast risen to #10 now if they redid the list. Serena's career is likely only going to keep getting better and Nadal's has probably already virtually ended. It is likely Serena will not be behind Nadal on any list in a year or twos times, and I am just as big or bigger a Nadal fan as I am a Serena fan but that is reality. Also regardless of the Tennis Channel list many by the U.S Open were starting to talk about Serena as the best female player in history, something that nobody says or ever will say about Nadal when it comes to the men.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012
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  26. President

    President Legend

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    How in God's name is Sharapova on the same level as Djokovic? Djokovic has more titles and more majors, won against much better competition as well. Djokovic has DOUBLE the career prize money of Sharapova, DOUBLE. Even if some ATP tournaments pay a bit more than WTA tournaments, it shows that he's been infinitely more consistent than Sharapova and has been stopped by Federer and Nadal many times at the USO and RG before his breakthrough in 2011.

    Unlike Serena, who basically plays as a part time player and couldn't really dominate over a long period, Federer and Nadal have true professionals for many years and that's why it took a truly superhuman effort for Djokovic to break through in 2011 and beat them. Inferior players couldn't sneak by and win majors (like Kuznetzova and Ivanovic on the WTA) in the Fedal era. I have huge (grudging)respect for Cvac in achieving what he did among such legends. It's a huge insult to Djokovic to say Sharapova is on the same level as him.
     
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  27. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Like I said Sharapova has 4 slams and the Career Slam. Djokovic has 5 slams and no Career Slam. Unless you dispute the worth of a Career Slam, that is approximately equal. Many would take 4 slams and a Career Slam over 5 and no Career Slam in fact. Now there are other factors to consider of course. However one cant say Sharapova wasnt consistent for many years too. From 2004 to 2008 in slams:

    2004 Wimbledon- win
    2004 U.S Open- 3rd round
    2005 Australian Open- semis (lost to eventual winner after 3 match points)
    2005 French Open- quarters (lost to eventual winner in eventual winners closest match of last 3 rounds)
    2005 Wimbledon- semis (lost to eventual winner)
    2005 U.S Open- semis (lost to eventual winner)
    2006 Australian Open- semis
    2006 French Open- round of 16 (lost to Safina one of best clay courters of era, after having match point)
    2006 Wimbledon- semis (lost to eventual winner)
    2006 U.S Open- win
    2007 Australian Open- finalist
    2007 French Open- semis
    2007 Wimbledon- 4th round (lost to eventual winner and 5 time Wimbledon winner)
    2007 U.S Open- 3rd round
    2008 Australian Open- win
    2008 French Open- 4th round (lost to eventual finalist Safina, for second time at RG after having match point ironically)

    Then the long injury period where she was either not playing or unable to play at her normal level cost her about 3 years. Since then:

    2011 French Open- semis (lost to eventual winner)
    2011 Wimbledon- finalist
    2011 U.S Open- 4th round
    2012 Australian Open- finalist
    2012 French Open- win
    2012 Wimbledon- 4th round
    2012 U.S Open- win

    Also her results at the WTA YEC and Olympics:

    2004- win
    2005- semis
    2006- semis (lost to eventual winner)
    2007- finalist
    2011- RR exit
    2012- finalist
    2012 Olympics- finalist

    So Sharapova herself was extremely consistent for many many years, in addition to producing big wins she was constantly a factor. The WTA from 2004-2008 was extremely strong, unlike today btw, and Sharapova still won 3 majors, a YEC, and contended to win and made it deep in almost every slam she played even against that field. A myth some people seem to have is this is Sharapova's best ever tennis we see before us now, and it is barely enough to win the very odd slam vs a really weak field. Neither is the case, Maria in fact was a much better tennis player before all her shoulder problems in 2008 (started in early 2007 in fact), and was winning big and always right at the top even when womens tennis was at its height with Serena, Henin, Venus, Davenport, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Sharapova herself, and others all going strong. That (the field of 2004-2008 I am referring to) is overall a much stronger field than the mens field today which is a strong 3 or 4 and nothing after that, and Sharapova had most of her career greatness and almost all her major titles vs that formidable 2004-2008 field. Lets also remember we have an old Federer and a clearly fading Nadal who was partly inactive this year, and still an until recently slamless Murray making up that so called dream group that people are trying to hype up as such a historic top 4. The one big thing Djokovic has over Sharapova is his 2011 year. Sharapova never had a year anything like that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012
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  28. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Also prize money is only equal for men and women (well close to equal) at the slams. Check out the prizes offered on the regular WTA and ATP and you will see an enormous difference.
     
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  29. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Sharapova is a brainless ballbasher who only knows how to bash hard,harder,and hardest. She is not on the same level as Djesus(as much as it pains me to say so).
     
    #29
  30. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Goat worthy at 31
     
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  31. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    You know, one H2H is changed a little...
     
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  32. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    It's simply impossible to compare WTA to ATP. The level of competition is not even remotely the same. To me, Sharapova is a ball basher. Djokovic is a definitely more complete player. Then again, there aren't that many WTA players that could be labeled that way.
     
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  33. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    No I'm not saying Sharapova won slams because no one else was there, but I am saying she is wildly inconsistant. She has won 4 slams in 8 years, and is perhaps a bit fortunate to have one of each which gives her a slightly higher standing than if she just had 4. She was a good enough player to be a threat to the other to players but only on her best form was she able to win slams, and that form very rarely occured. Now she is even less likely to pose any threat and it perhaps makes sense she won a slam where where Serena and other players suck, because she'd probably never get past them on a surface thay play well on.

    But from now on, I think her winning more slams as a regular occurance is out of the question unless there is no one to really give her a match.

    As for people like Azerenka, good player, but not in the same league as Serena, Venus, Henin, Clijsters and a prime Sharapova (a few others too) especially mentally, and not really better than a Tsonga or Soderling from the men's game, it's just easier to be number one in the women's game the way it is and the way Serena hardly lays sometimes. But Henin and Venus could stand up to serena mentally, the newer players are like Ivanovic and Jankovic, they don't quite have the guts. You saw that in the US Open final where Azerenka almost won despite being well below serena in winners, but choked serving for the title.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
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  34. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Wow, Federer sure is hanging on.
     
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  35. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Yeah I'd call being world #2 "barely hanging on".
     
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  36. axel89

    axel89 Banned

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    imo you have to look at the statistics federer is doing a hell of a job to stay with these guys and #2 is great mad props to federer
     
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  37. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    I never said he was "barely" hanging on. He isn't dominating anymore, so it's incredible that he's still ranked that high this late in his career.
     
    #37
  38. powerangle

    powerangle Legend

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    You're being inconsistent here. In your post, you also later stated that Serena is currently behind Nadal on the "greatness list"...EVEN though she has 4 more slams than Nadal. Why? Because she is a woman and therefore that has to be factored in?

    Then you must use that same logic and apply it to Djoko/Pova. How can Sharapova be on par with Djokovic when she is one slam BEHIND Djokovic (while you feel that Serena is behind Nadal even though she has 4 more slams than Nadal). Wouldn't Sharapova need to be at least around 3 slams ahead of Djokovic as well?? (if you factor in her Career Slam).

    So no...as per gender I believe Djokovic is quite a bit ahead of Sharapova.

    Not to mention, Sharapova was never a dominating force on tour like Djokovic was able to produce in 2011.
     
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  39. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    *******'s real problem right NOW is Djokovic and DelPo/Berdych if they get hot.
     
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  40. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    Please see 2012 Cincy Final. ******* can take out Djoker. It can go either way. It's a coin flip right now.

    Delpo is more of a challenge, I think, for *******.

     
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  41. zam88

    zam88 Professional

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    Delpo is getting better and will challenge Roger better moving forward, but as for 2012, Federer obliterated DelPo.

    6-2 this season including the important matches at the FO and Olympics... 13-4 overall... Not to mention the second loss at the ATP finals barely counted since pwnerer didn't even need that win to advance.. so of course he wasn't going to dig deep

    i realize DelPo is getting legit though and that that head to head is going to narrow, but they are highly unlikely to meet 8 times in a season again... that's insane.
     
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  42. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Del Potro is more of a challenge, yet (other than an odd upset) loses almost every time he plays against Federer.
     
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  43. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Djokovic has a 7-3 record vs ******* the last 2 years, yet is less of a challenge than Del Potro who has only beaten him once in I forget how many matches, and runs out of gas after a set and half of any physical match he plays. Only on Planet TW.
     
    #43
  44. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Nonsense!!!!

    Djokovic-Federer H2H 3-2
    Del Potro-Federer H2H 2-6
     
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  45. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    lol wut ?

    federer beat delpo @ the AO, FO and olympics

    their H2H this year is 6-2 with one of the 2 delpo wins coming in a RR match that was inconsquential for federer ....

    djoker was 3-2 vs federer with them splitting FO & wimbledon meetings and djoker beating him @ the YEC ...

    doesn't take a genius to figure out who's the bigger threat/challenge ...
     
    #45
  46. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    When he's on, Delpo can overpower Federer more than Djoker can, making it seem like he's a bigger challenge than he is to Federer.
     
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