VS Gut mains and poly crosses

Discussion in 'Strings' started by parasailing, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    This depends on which VS string you are talking about, non BT7 or BT7 technology. I string my non VS at 57lbs and 52lbs for Silverstring but for BT7 VS, I string it at 56lbs and 50lbs. BT7 seems to give a slightly stiffer stringbed and given SS is a crisp string, I had to lower it a bit.
     
  2. tes

    tes Rookie

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    It's the non-BT7 string. But wouldn't string pattern, head size be more of a factor? What are you using?
     
  3. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Tes: For a better perspective I suggest you take a read through the threads and posts on this topic by myself, TimothyO, and PV Audio. We've at least done actual playtests and know from firsthand experience what we're talking about. Believe me, the ball is definitely *not* going to fly off your racket (unless of course you have a superfast swing, a continental grip, and a perfectly flat swingpath).

    As for our troll....

    Of course bend123, you're clearly such an authority, we all should just take your unsubstantiated word as fact :roll: We're all fortunate you grace us with your sublime presence :roll: How dare any pleb deign to ask you to back up your contention? :roll:

    Uh-huh, and did your sublime genius ever pause to consider the fact that at least part of the reason Fed gets so much spin is because of how much more spin gut imparts at lower tensions?

    No, it clearly did not. :roll:

    Oh, and it's interesting to note that the pic you provided was from Novak's "bad" old days ... and that he ultimately chose to break the racket.

    On the grass this past Wimbledon it seems he strung at 27, aka 59 lbs. On grass.

    Of course, I'm sure you're one of those enlightened souls who string poly in the high 60s "because it feels comfortable and nothing else".

    Yawn.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  4. ben123

    ben123 Professional

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    how old are you? 15?

    i never said anything else than string at the tension on what you feel comfortable with. you were the guy saying use this and that tension not me...
    first you said he strings at 56 and now you say at 59? are you angry? just btw 27kg = 59,5 lbs

    and yes you get more spin in lower tension. but as i said fed hits the ball really fast, if you dont have this technique you can string at 20 lbs and you will still not get spin on the ball

    stop crying ok..
     
  5. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Yep, just what I'd expect to hear from a troll.

    Whatever, thanks for stopping by. I sure hope the world keeps on recognising your stupendous talents. :roll:
     
  6. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    It would also play a part as well. I use a PSTGT which is 16x20 and if you go with a 18x20 string pattern, I would suggest lowering it a bit more given the denser string pattern.
     
  7. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I like my APDC at 60/57 with VS black 16/ RPM 16 much better than VS black 16/ RPM 17 at 56/53. the higher tension works better for me with the same amount of spin. just less powerful. win win for me. same soft feel.
     
  8. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    I am with you on this one. KLIP Legend is the best performance to cost ratio in the natural gut market. Combine it with a Poly with no texture (so as not to fray the gut so quickly) that also has a high performance to cost ratio (usually $8. for a full set), and you end up with a full Hybrid set of gut/poly for about $16.50! That is HALF the cheapest pre-packaged gut/poly set.

    My picks for the non-textured poly crosses based on performance ratings and cost would be:

    1) Signum Pro Poly Plasma ($9 set)
    2) MSV Co-Focus ($8. set)
    3) Kirshbaum Pro Line II black (special promo offer right now at $8. set!)

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Kir...lack_String_4-Pack/descpageAC-KPL2BK17PR.html

    The Kirshbaum Pro Line II is great string at this price - about half of what they usually charge!

    Anyone playing with the KLIP Legend gut and poly hybrid set-up now? What do you like for the poly crosses?
     
  9. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    BTW For those of you fighting over set-ups and tensions of the pros, you can find a lot of FACTS on the subject on-line at:

    http://www.colinthestringer.com/pros-strings/

    According to the site, here are some interesting tensions and set-ups of the pros:

    Latest Update: Wimbledon/Montreal Masters- August 2011

    Novak Djokovic Head YouTek IG Speed Pro 18×20
    Head Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger Alu Power Rough 55/52lbs

    Roger Federer Wilson Six.One Tour BLX
    Wilson Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger Alu Power Rough 48.5/44lbs

    Rafael Nadal Babolat AeroPro Drive GT
    Babolat RPM Blast 55lbs

    Andy Roddick Babolat Pure Drive Roddick
    Babolat Pro Hurricane Tour/Babolat VS Team 73/61lbs

    Bob Bryan Prince EXO3 Rebel
    Prince Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger TiMo 56/52lbs

    Mike Bryan Prince EXO3 Rebel
    Prince Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger TiMo 54/51lbs
     
  10. ben123

    ben123 Professional

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    omg i showed you 2 threads of djokovic real racquet and you still believe collin the stringer?

    collinthestringer.com has MANY mistakes on pros strings. guess why he has so many oldschool pros on his website who are not even playing anymore..
     
  11. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    I strung up VS Team at 57lbs and WC Mosquito Bite at 52lbs last night and hit with it for about an hour today.

    Initial thoughts are that it is soft and powerful. I think its too powerful as balls would sail out quite a few times. After an hour or so, I decided to swtich back to a more control racquet.

    My advice if you go with this string is to up the tension to at least 55lbs to tame so of that power it offers. This is my third 18 guage string I used and based on experience, I now know to string it with higher tension than a 17gauge one.
     
  12. tes

    tes Rookie

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    Avert your eyes..I am going to use a dirty word in this thread....Global
    I strung up my my Head Youtek speed elite with Global 57 in mains Kirchbaum Pro II in crosses at 52. Played great in all respects for 2 sets before the mains sawed through in the sweet spot.
     
  13. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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  14. tes

    tes Rookie

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  15. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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  16. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    I really want to try the VS Gut mains + ALU Rough (or even RPM) crosses combo, but it's expensive to get a racquet strung where I live (Hong Kong), and it's probably too humid here for natural gut anyway.

    Sigh.
     
  17. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Of all the soft, powerful polys I've used, WC MB is right behind PS Energy in terms of power. The difference for me is that MB holds tension way better, so you can string it higher and it shouldn't turn into quite the launcher that Energy does.

    If you can dial in the right tension, Gut/MB is an amazing feeling setup, with power, touch, spin and comfort. 62/59 or something around there is truly sublime. I used it with Pacific Tough, a stiffer gut that helps aid control, as VS will also add to the power a lot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2011
  18. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    I agree that VS is way more powerful than Pacific Tough but I don't like the stiffer feel of the Pacific. So far with the setups I have tried, I prefer 57lbs on VS mains and use the copoly cross to rein in the power. This is the third time I have tried a 18 gauge string and it confirms that 18 gauge quite powerful and needs to be strung at a higher tension.
     
  19. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    If you only got 2 sets, it is too expensive for me. I normally breaks nylon/multis in about 3-4 weeks of play and the last week they are pretty worn. I have used Bab Tonic+ BallFeel 16G in mains with several smooth and textured poly crosses and actually get about the same play - around 3-4 weeks playing 4-5 times per weeks at 2 hours per session. The gut actually plays better to the end. Bab Tonic+ BallFeel is a better bargain and it plays great. I will try Pac Classic Gut 16G for the fall season as it is less expensive than Tonic+ - $27 vs $33. I have used Pac Classic Gut as crosses and it plays nice and seem to have almost the same durability as Bab Tonic+, but yet to try it as a main. We'll see - TBD.
     
  20. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Having tried Pac Classic 16 and now 17 crossed with MSV Co-Focus, I found that the 16 took about 20 hours to get as spinny as I wanted it, and the 17 was just about there from the get-go.

    Depending on your preferences, you might want to try starting with the 16L instead.
     
  21. Avadia

    Avadia Rookie

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    I just strung up my AG4D 200 Tour with Pac Classic 17 and MSV Co-Focus 1.23. Can't wait to hit with it!
     
  22. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Nice! I'm about to start a new thread for my setup, feel free to contribute your reviews too.
     
  23. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    Hey SMASHER and TIMOTHYO, I know that you both are fans of MSV Co-Focus as a cross string with gut. I am in the midst of my own playtest using the new KLIP Legend TOUR 17 (which is double-coated and seems to play very nicely). I think I have the cross narrowed to one of three polys - all of which you seem to regard well (and are smooth and slippery). They are:

    Weiss Silverstring 17
    MSV Co-Focus 18
    Kirshbaum Pro Line II 17

    Could you weigh in on this? Am I missing a poly here that will offer good comfort and feel and still give me good tension retention and compliment the KLIP Gut?

    I am switching over from Poly in the mains and a multi in the crosses and I am loving what the Gut/Poly Hybrid is doing for me, so far. I just can't afford to cut out too many sets of gut to find the right set-up and would really appreciate anyone's thoughts here on the best poly cross for my set-up.
     
  24. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    ^^^ I'd say the best bet is the WC poly, they are top-notch when it comes to tension retention, and compliment gut very nicely. Although, as an avid Tornado user, have you thought of trying Hyperion as a cross? Isn't it a smooth version of tornado?

    Speaking of which, Tornado in the YTPP is absolutely deadly! I've been using it lately, comparing to my go-to Turbo, and it is almost as comfy with exceptional control, touch and spin. The tension retention on Signum is nothing short of mind-boggling.
     
  25. Avadia

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    Got a chance to hit with this setup last night and really enjoyed it. I was most amazed by the power I got off the stringbed. I strung it at 59/56, and thought that might be a little tight. But I got tons of power from it and it actually took a little while to get used to the power and get it under control. But once I did, I played really well with it.

    I was serving bombs and had a fair number of aces and lots of unreturnables. Got a very high percentage of first serves in with pace and placement and had an easy time hitting powerful topspin and kick second serves consistently. I think I double faulted only once.

    Groundstrokes were powerful and deep with lots of topspin. Slices were accurate with good bite on the ball. I hit a few nice short angle winners as well. And I was absolutely putting overheads and volleys away with the power. Touch and feel was also good, and I hit several deft dropshots for winners. Can't wait to play with this setup a little more now that it has settled in, but I can highly recommend it already.
     
  26. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    I did think of Hyperion, however, it is 20-50% more money than the other three right now and this is for cross string (not the mains) so it is hard to rationalize the additional cost for poly crosses with gut in the mains.

    I agree with you about the Tornado in the YPP as a main string. It's amazing! Love it with my Mantis Comfort crosses. For the money, you cannot beat this set-up. That said, in play testing the gut mains and poly crosses, there is a notable increase in comfort and feel and POWER at the same time. It is also more than twice the price.

    I wanted to find the best Poly at or under $10. a set for the crosses to keep the full set-up price down given in the increase in costs for the mains - thereby eliminating SP Hyperion and SPPP (even though they are both very well-reviewed and highly regarded).
     
  27. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    You might all find this interesting, as well. From an article by Joshua Speckman in Tennis Player Magazine this month:

    "Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?"

    "Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds."


    "Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball."

    "In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper."

    "Why? Natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks."

    "Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide."
     
  28. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    If you go with a reel of SPPP, it ends up being less than $7 per set similar to what WC Scorpion is priced at per reel. When I get a chance, I will string up both SPPP and Cofocus to see which one plays better.
     
  29. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    I am in the process of stringing up the WC Silverstring 17 and the MSV Co-Focus 18 crosses right now with my KLIP Legend Tour 17 mains. I will let you know how they compare.

    The Kirschbaum Pro Line II was nice. Very comfortable and powerful compared to the SP Tornado I used as crosses in my last comparison playtest for a reference set in initial comparison (as I was using this as my Mains for the last year after testing nearly everything and loving the SP Tornado best). Good spin and very good touch and feel. Large sweet spot and better pocketing compared to Tornado (which is textured and offers most friction to the gut).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  30. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Nice. But this thread just wouldn't be right without a gratuitous photo of your stringbed!!
     
  31. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    Two hours of play. Initial impressions:

    Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains / MSV Co.-Focus 17L (1.18) crosses 48/52 - Great ball pocketing and lively response. Very "Liquid" or "Airy" sensation when hitting ("Spaghetti Strings"?). Great bite on the ball - terrific spin potential. Slightly muted power (balls stayed in play). Larger sweet spot. Tons of dwell time.

    Power: A-
    Control: (+ ranked) A-
    Feel: A
    Comfort: (+ ranked) A
    Spin: A+


    •Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains / Weiss CANNON Silverstring 17 (1.20) crosses 48/52 - Comments: Crisp, yet still very comfortable. Solid, with decent power, yet with good control.


    Power: A-
    Control: (+ ranked) A
    Feel: A-
    Comfort: (+ ranked) A-
    Spin: B

    More to come.
     
  32. TonyB

    TonyB Hall of Fame

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    Funny thing is that I always used to use poly mains and gut crosses and yes, they definitely locked into place with high friction. I just strung up the same frame with gut mains and poly crosses for the first time today and the gut mains definitely snap back into place quickly with very low friction.

    So, I would have to agree with the quotes above.
     
  33. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    I have the VS Team and Black Magic crosses setup for about 15 hours now. For me, Black Magic will not be the string I will go with it. Initially, it plays really nice and I thought it would be a good value but now the strings feel dead. It has lost the pop and power so I will be moving on.

    This string just doesn't last as long as WC Scorpion or Silverstring so I will not be buying a reel of this. It just feels like the power has left the string and now has become more of a control string like WC B5E which I would put about the same as Black Magic but with better spin production.

    My other VS setup with WC Mosquito bite is about 4 hours into and I am still trying to figure out if I just don't have the right tension on this string. I know people have mention great power and such but I am not feeling it compared to Scorpion. It might be the fact that it's the only 18 gauge string I have tried in a cross but so far, it feels average to me. Perhaps more time with this setup will provide me with more feedback.

    Now it's time to string up VS Team with SPPP to see if that will the real deal.
     
  34. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    Just to be clear, my test was based on the but mains at 52 lbs and the poly crosses at 48 lbs.
     
  35. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    Most pros are using the poly as the crosses for this reason - and at fairly low tensions.

    Novak Djokovic Head YouTek IG Speed Pro 18×20
    Head Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger Alu Power Rough 55/52lbs (racquet 52-62lbs range)

    Roger Federer Wilson Six.One Tour BLX
    Wilson Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger Alu Power Rough 48.5/44lbs (racquet 50-60lbs range)

    Bob Bryan Prince EXO3 Rebel
    Prince Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger TiMo 56/52lbs (racquet 50-60lbs range)

    Mike Bryan Prince EXO3 Rebel
    Prince Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger TiMo 54/51lbs (racquet 50-60lbs range)

    Lleyton Hewitt Yonex RDiS 100
    Babolat VS Team/Luxilon Big Banger Alu Power 56lbs

    Only Andy Roddick - that I can find - has it the other way around (and much higher tension):

    Andy Roddick Babolat Pure Drive Roddick
    Babolat Pro Hurricane Tour/Babolat VS Team 73/61lbs
     
  36. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    I think it's important to keep in mind that the pros strung the racket so low because they actually use the racket less than a day, usually just a few hours, after the rackets are strung. even just after a day or less of sitting there without being hit, the strings tension usually dropped so low that they have to be restrung for the pros. So unless you are restringing your racket everyday, you should at least string them 3-5 pounds higher than what they are stringing at.
     
  37. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Um, probably not. You're forgetting that the pros also swing much faster than the average TT poster. If anything, slightly lower tensions (than everyone but Federer) will suffice for all but the most demanding satellite tour calibre folks.
     
  38. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    yea but they also hit with more spin and brushing motion. which means at the same tension as them, your balls r gonna fly while theirs will stay in. that extra swing speed goes mostly into spin than power.
     
  39. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

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    Finally had a chance to hit for about 2 hours with VS Team and SPPP cross. The string offered good power and decent spin production. I also loved the orange string color.

    I tried the VS Team with WC MB cross again and was hoping for better success. Unfortunately, it was a disappointment. It didn't have as much control as the SPPP and I didn't feel the power some have mentioned. I cut out the crosses and will be stringing it up with Co focus to see how that goes.

    I still need to try PL2 to finish my testing until newer ones come around the corner:).
     
  40. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Um, no. Your assumption here is that the extra swing speed of the pros translates exclusively into spin production. That's virtually certain to be wrong.

    I also think you're assuming that people on this board sport 110"+ head heavy frames weighing sub 10 ounces, and use very fast, completely flat swings.

    Maybe you do, but good luck with that assumption.
     
  41. ben123

    ben123 Professional

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    my post got deleted so here again:

    these specs are wrong.
     
  42. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    First of all, I said "mostly" into spin. And let's say someone saw federer string his racket at 48 pounds. Are you seriously suggesting that he should string a few pounds lower than 48? Go to any of your friend and tell them since federer string at 48 so they should string lower and see how they react!

    Second, most people restring their racket weeks or months in between. The strings tension after a few days of sitting there and hours of hitting are gonna be at least 10 pounds lower than than the freshly strung racket. which means balls are definitely gonna fly on them.

    People who read this board are tennis nerds, so why would I expect them to sport 110" racket? They are either Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic fan with Federer and Nadal stringing at a very low tension.
     
  43. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Awww, 2Hare is attempting a smackdown.

    Let's see what was said:

    Oh dear, epic fail. Attention to detail really isn't your thing, huh?

    Um, no. Allow me to refer you to this thread's title: tension maintenance is not a major issue for natural gut strings.

    Since you're suggesting that an approximately 20% tension loss occurs merely "after a few days of sitting there", perhaps you ought to read up on gut's qualities a little:

    Or this from a TW competitor's website:

    So not quite, 2Hare. But thanks for trying anyway.
     
  44. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    lol im attempting smack down? you are the one who's trying to argue with me, and I'm trying to smack you down? You really do see things quite differently from normal people don't you?

    So we should take Federer, the most famous gut/poly user, out of the equation for the sake of your argument huh? how convenient. If you can't come up with a better argument other than taking out Federer from your equations then there's no point arguing here, because I bet half of the people reading this is having Federer in mind.

    Gut's not gonna lose 10 pounds everyone knows that. More like 3-5 pounds. I was talking about the poly part. I apologize if I wasn't specific enough, but gut it also a lot more powerful than poly. So at say 50 pounds (strung at 53-55), it's gonna be insanely powerful. That's why pros using full gut go upward of 60 pounds.
     
  45. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Well if you think you're "normal", then yes I clearly do.

    Yep, that's what I said since he appears to be an outlier. Sorry that you can't build a straw man here.

    We're posting in a thread dedicated to natural gut mains and poly crosses . . . and you're talking solely about poly, huh? Without mentioning that key detail? While pontificating about the playability of the entire stringbed? Of course you were. :rolleyes:

    And now, better yet, you're speaking as an authority about how gut mains behave at 50 lbs, eh? Perhaps you should go and read some of the posts by folks who string these kinds of hybrids at these tensions. God forbid, you might actually learn something, because "insanely powerful" they're not.

    So like I said, thanks for trying anyway 2Hare.
     
  46. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    Yea Federer's an outlier for using Gut/Poly, because not too many pros out there use this combo.

    Rather than just trolling me without coming up with any useful information, why don't you come up with some examples of your "Gut/Poly" pros, beside Federer of course since he's a weirdo by your standard, that you think people should check out and then string lower than them?
     
  47. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Keep fighting, wounded soldier.
     
  48. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    Oh? No more flaming troll? I guess you are full now? Or moving on to trolling other topics? Don't come back either way, no one likes a troll and no one cares about a troll.
     
  49. Mig1NC

    Mig1NC Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,243
    OK guys. Lets take it down a notch.

    EDIT: By the way, I just got a Donnay X-Dual Silver strung up with Pacific Prime 17 mains at 54 and Prince Beast XP 16 at 50. I didn't have any 17 laying around or I would have gone that route. Had a match scheduled last night but got rained out. Will try again on Wednesday.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2011
  50. parasailing

    parasailing Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    3,438
    So went out tonight to hit some balls and not sure if the weather played a part but the temps were in the low 50s and it seems that all the polys with the exception of B5E seems to feel a tad stiffer than when the temps are warmer in the day.

    First up was VS team with Cofocus which I had high hopes for but it slightly disappointed. Backhand slices were coming off the racquet nice and low with good underspin but on my forehand, I was not able to generate as much topspin and power. This is the first time hitting with it so maybe this might take a little time to break in the strings. It was not as soft and powerful as SPPP when initially strung up.

    So I went back to VS team with SPPP and that gave me a bit more power, control, and spin production. For now, SPPP seems to be a good copoly to use as a cross as I like how soft it hits and still provides power and good spin production.
     

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