Was I really out of line here?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by seleswannabe, May 19, 2009.

  1. seleswannabe

    seleswannabe Rookie

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    I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
    At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.
     
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  2. canadave

    canadave Professional

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    Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

    A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

    She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

    The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
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  3. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    They had already had their drills/practice, unless I am missing something. This was a set they were playing. That is when you step it up and play "your game." Totally not out of line IMO.
     
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  4. Topaz

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    Wow, Canadave, I'm going to really have to disagree with you here.

    What is the point of practicing? To me, it is to get better and to win in your matches. That is why they say...play like you practice.

    It seems to me that is was the *other* gal who got upset because she couldn't win. I bet her lobbing strategy (like the OP says) wins her a lot of matches, and she has never been forced to change her strategy against her opponents and come up with a plan 'B'. The OP changed what was a losing strategy for her, and ended up winning. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you are losing a match? And now, when the OP comes up against a 'lobber' in a singles match, she will know what game plan she needs to implement to win.

    The other woman is going to have to deal with the fact that she got beat, fair and square, and she may have to go back to the drawing board to learn some other types of shots. I bet she wasn't complaining to the OP after she won the first set!
     
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  5. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I don't agree with this at all. If they are playing sets, then the objective is not to hit cooperatively...the objective is to win points. That is why they have cooperative drills. There is no purpose to play sets if you are not trying to win points.
     
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  6. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    :: blinks::

    Were you out of line? Absolutely not.

    Was she out of line? Yes. *Way* out of line.

    I mean . . . come *on.* You played your style of tennis, she played hers. Yours is better. Why is this a problem?

    I have had that problem in social tennis. Some people think social tennis means you should never do anything aggressive. You shouldn't pressure them, hit hard, come to net, volley at them.

    Honestly, I think the default setting is you always play full out unless there is some obvious reason not to. That would be when you are playing an octogenarian, a small child, someone far below your level. Let's not get us all into a situation where we have to go up to our opponents and make an agreement that today we will play tennis the best we can and go all out.

    Now, if this were a drill and you were blasting for winners when you were supposed to be playing cooperative drills, that would be something else.
     
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  7. canadave

    canadave Professional

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    Hmmm. I just re-read it. Maybe you're right--if this was indeed a "match" at the end of practice, with everyone knowing "hey, at the end of practice, we're going to play a real match, so be ready", then I guess the OP wasn't out of line at all--my apologies.

    However, I still think that as captain, you need to not just destroy someone 6-1 in a practice match against one of your players and walk away. First off, if the other player wasn't aware that this was what was going to be happening, there needed to be better communication. Secondly, if the score is 6-1 and the lobber lost badly, there should be some attempt to touch base (preferably during the set) and figure out what's going on and try to improve. At 4-1, if I'm captain, and winning easily, I'd stop things, talk to the player, try to debrief what's going on. It's still practice.

    I'd also suggest that if the losing player is a doubles specialist and obviously can't play singles very well (if she's just lobbing all the time), then she probably needs help with her singles--and destroying her 6-1 in practice probably isn't the best way to help her state of mind, which is obviously fragile to begin with (hence the meltdown afterward).

    That being said--yeah, I agree with you and Cindy, if the losing player is just stamping her feet because she's upset she lost, then that's not cool.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
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  8. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Kick her off the team.

    Good luck.
     
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  9. Topaz

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    Canadave, what do you mean by saying the other player isn't aware of what is happening?!? She is on a tennis court, playing a match with people keeping score!

    BTW, being captain doesn't mean you are the best player...just means you handle the paperwork. The OP is not a 'pro', just another player on the team.

    What is this other player going to do in a real match situation if she runs into someone who played like the OP did? Cry and complain??? Lol, I mean...'cmon!!!

    Cindy is right...it is the *other* woman who is way, WAY out of line. If she can't take the heat, she needs to get off of the court.
     
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  10. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think it is up to the winning player to stop the set and tell the losing player what she should do differently, even in a team practice. It is up to the losing player to do that if she thinks it would be helpful.

    I play a woman in practice doubles who does what you suggest. She starts winning, and then she starts saying things to her losing opponents like, "We're up two breaks. What are you guys going to start doing differently to turn it around?"

    I find this *highly* obnoxious. We are grown women and experienced players. We will decide what adjustments to make, and when.

    Hey, I captain teams. If I am having a practice match with teammates, I go all out (unless I'm trying to implement some new skill) and I try to win every set 6-0. And I don't coach unless I am asked *and* have a very clear idea what the others are doing wrong and some tactical suggestion.
     
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  11. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    She's out of line, not you. There is absolutely no reason to play any differently in "practice" then you would in a match.

    That's the point of "practice" when you play matches, you play how you should be playing in a match.

    If you were the teaching pro and a 4.5 or better player then she would have some complaint maybe but you are at her skill level. Who's to say she wont see someone like you in the actual league match.

    Also it's supposed to be practice for YOU as well (after all, you do play on the team, right?). Is she that selfish that she doesn't consider that?

    I dont know if someone was like this on my team I would wish they were not there. This whining because someone expects another person to play down is really strange.

    If someone's good enough to beat me 6-0, then I expect they should beat me 6-0, I dont want them playing down to me. (unless they are several skill levels ahead of me and it's just retarded if I cant get anything back)
     
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  12. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Nah, no need for that.

    You are 3.0 players. The great thing about 3.0 tennis is that you will undoubtedly move up. With luck, you will move up before she will. Then you can start a new team and you will lack room for people who um . . . how can I put it? . . . . haven't made the mental adjustments needed to be competitive at a higher level.
     
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  13. canadave

    canadave Professional

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    LOL....well, I wouldn't want to phrase it quite as obnoxiously as that woman you mention! That's pretty bad--and pretty obnoxious :)

    I don't know. I guess I wouldn't be good on a tennis team then. I've played on teams, and played tennis, and as far as I'm concerned in practice with teammates you try to work on your own skills but also offer to debrief with your teammate if you see they're having difficulties. I think that's preferable to simply destroying them without comment. But I'll defer to you folks, since I don't have the tennis team experience to speak authoritatively on the subject.
     
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  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    C'mon, you wanted to boast about your serve and your win on this board. Just admit it :)
     
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  15. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    What did your teammates say? Come on, tell us. I'm dying to know!!
     
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  16. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Sure there is. She'll learn to keep her trap shut, and play tennis. I guarantee this is the type of person that plays outside the rules and footfaults all the time.
     
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  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    On Sunday, I was watching some high level doubles before my game (at least 4.5 I should say) - 3 men and 1 woman, and she was real good. But she footfaulted on EVERY serve. Her foot slid and moved inside the court well before the ball was struck. I don't know how to judge such people. Should I assume that they have a good serve or not? Because they may be so grooved into it that making them stop footfaulting may destroy their serve. How do these club players react to forced changes in serve habits? Do they collapse or do they adapt? Got me thinking.
     
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  18. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^In my book, if a person foot faults, the serve doesn't count. So, if they can't get the ball in the box without footfaulting, then they have a crappy serve.

    I agree also there is a lot of high level players who foot fault quite a bit. When they are told they are footfaulting, if it is a hitch (part of their routine) in their mechanics, it usually throws them off when they try to correct it.
     
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  19. Gemini

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    seleswannabe..you were definitely NOT out of line. I wouldn't boot her off the team but I would share with her that "My objective in playing that set the way I did was to be aggressive and play my game regardless of the opponent. Practice, for me, is about developing my game, not just fun."
     
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  20. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    If you kick her off the team (or retailiate in any way), it will be a Big Fat Scandal in your little tennis world. You will be the Bad Guy who Abused Her Power. It will be the talk of town, I assure you.

    Some people get off on that kind of thing and love being the Bully, but you don't sound like that, seleswannabe.

    To me, this is one of those Do Nothing, Say Nothing moments. Maybe she will come to you and apologize, maybe not. If so, that will tell you something. If not, that will also tell you something. Either way, you've nothing to gain by being small.
     
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  21. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^LOL. You are truly hysterical.
     
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  22. goober

    goober Legend

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    I am impressed that you can actually hit a kick serve as a 3.0.:) I really haven't seen that and I bet a lot of 3.0s you face probably haven't either. Anyways your opponent has a bad attitude. She should be glad that she got to practice against a good serve and a good player. You can have fun in beatdowns if you take it as a learning experience.
     
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  23. Spokewench

    Spokewench Semi-Pro

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    I'm a captain of 4 teams. Two 3.0s and two 3.5s. I have most always in the past tried to build up my teammates when I can and if I am a better player, I will not try to trounce them all the time; but occassionally, I believe they need a wake-up call too. Otherwise, they believe they are doing really well and don't know realize that they should be working on their game too. So, sometimes, I will play full out. I think at times you owe it to your players to do that so that they will try to up their game.

    I always appreciate it when I play people better than me that they just play their game and that gives me the opportunity to see faster/harder, more spin serves, more variety in shots and gives me the opportunity to figure out how to handle them.

    Winning is not everything, learning is sometimes more important.

    spoke
     
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  24. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I agree. I don't understand how kicking her off the team is even an option. She did nothing wrong but complain about a set which she thought was more for practice but her captain thought was a serious one. What is the big deal here?
     
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  25. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    No, you were not out of line. Your opponent is simply a sore loser.
     
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  26. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Aw, thanks man! I aims to please. :)
     
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  27. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    I can't believe you apologised, are you some sort of doormat?
     
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  28. GPB

    GPB Professional

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    Seleswannabe, you asked if you were out of line for playing the way you wanted to play. No, SHE was out of line for trying to force you to play her way. She said practice should be fun, right? Well apparently lobbing back and forth isn't what you call fun. Don't worry about it!
     
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  29. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Missed opportunity, you should have told her it *was* fun.
     
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  30. Gemini

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    I agree with you both but part of the problem is in the perception of what practice is for. The loser considers practice to be about fun. I'm not going to argue that, but a "fun" practice is defined differently by different people apparently.
     
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  31. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    FWIW - I may be really annoying to play someone, beat them, then give an out pouring of "advice" - seeing as you are both on the same level (in this case - 3.0). If they ask for a de-brief or advice afterwards, then sure.

    I would definitely go all out in a practice match - it's the best time to simulate the real feeling of presure that you will face in a real match - something that's hard to do in drills.

    Save, working on "skills" for the drills. The practice match is the time to put those skills you practiced in action under a real tennis situation. It's easy to do A, B, and C off of feeds, but a lot hard to do it when the ball isn't being fed to you.

    In this case - sounds like a pusher/lob queen didn't like that she got crushed. If someone exposes a hole in your game, it's a great time to take note and work on it at next practice. For example - if she couldn't return those serves, come back next week and spend 15 minutes working on trying to return that type of serve and grow your game.

    Not trying to gang up on you canadave- I can see your point in a way - but I think the player who threw a fit needs to change her thinking about improving her game. Sounds like she took it as a personal insult, instead of an opportunity to improve.
     
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  32. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    [​IMG]
     
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  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There are many unwritten rules in just "hitting," as an example. You feed to the other guy, the other guy should not hit a winner but feed it back to you, and then each one can attempt to move the other from side to side, while drop shots are frowned upon. This is one example.
     
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  34. seleswannabe

    seleswannabe Rookie

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    Just got back and wow, I did not expect such a response from my post. Just wanted to make a couple of points:
    *This "match" was the last 10 minutes of our team drill, with two coaches watching. Our coach and one other pro were watching. She never stopped to asked for help and they never offered any.
    *Our coach is notorious for setting lineups based on the outcomes of these end of practice matches. We frequently discuss this as a team, so we "all" take them seriously, not just me.
    *Her comments annoyed me but are pretty much the norm for her. Four different team members have personally told me and our coach they flat out refuse to play with her.
    *sureshs - I like your comment about bragging about my serve ;) Honestly, if you saw my serve you would probably fall over laughing.
     
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  35. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, I see. You made her look bad with the coach watching.

    I feel her pain, but that's just too bad.

    I want to hear the follow-up to all of this, seleswannabe. What on earth will she say when the new line-up comes out and she is benched or playing a lower position? Inquiring minds want to know!! :)
     
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  36. seleswannabe

    seleswannabe Rookie

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    Oh and Cindy, my teammates just stood there. They are used to her comments and outbursts and know it's best to just ignore her.
     
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  37. lovin'it

    lovin'it Rookie

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    this is what i sometimes hate about team tennis type settings, but before you get upset with her (and i am ALL OVER YOUR SIDE) just know this is her defensive mechanism for losing. some would sulk, some would accuse you of cheating...this was just her way, and it sounds like your teammates have seen it before.

    truly, i think you learn more about people on the tennis court than sometimes knowing them for quite awhile!

    don't hang your head, we all want to win, and there is an appropriate, sportman-like way to do it, and you did that. it was NOT a drill where you try to keep a ball going twenty hits...she just had to come up with SOMETHING, and this was her way...

    nauseating...(excuse me!!)
     
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  38. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Let's keep this real simple. Recall: "If you don't play to win, then why keep score?" So you're keeping score, (why?), and you should only hit shots that she likes? That's the opposite of how competition works. If you don't want to do it that way, then just play points. I've often practiced where we just play out points but don't keep score. Just switch servers after every 4 points. But if you're keeping track of who's winning...then you're competing.

    I'm not sure. Maybe it's the mood I'm in now, but it might be fun to try some stuff. You can: tell her she's not playing, then call her at the last minute to play, maybe tell her, "We had a default 'cause of you.", or do the opposite, schedule her in, but then cancel her at the last minute. Keep her confused about where she stands with you, this is better than dropping her or clearing the air. I've had bosses who were truly great at this, keeping you off balance.

    Will this make you the bad guy? I doubt that for several reasons. First most people are obsessed with their own lives and don't care what happens to other people. Also, you wouldn't be dropping her, so there's nothing too obvious going on. And, to others, if they see anything, just a catfight they'd want to stay away from, if they'd take a side, it's more likely yours, because you're the captain. Finally, anything more she'd say would make her look like she's holding a grudge, she got angry for no reason, you forgave, and she's still picking nits, no one will buy what she's selling. The argument to let her get away with this has more to do with timidness. You don't have to be so timid here, it's nice to win at tennis, and it's nice to win in other areas too, especially with people who start trouble with you in the first place.
    Machiavelli :twisted:
     
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  39. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Exactly, some people are obsessed with how everyone perceives them because they dont realize that nobody cares..... (or they are so busy rattling on about other people that they assume everyone else does the same....)

    Still wouldnt kick her off the team though. Players spend around $65 to join some of these teams plus whatever they paid to help pay for courts, balls, etc..... It's more of a business then anything.

    The way I figure it is Im really careful to avoid picking up players that act like that, but if I get one, that's my fault, Im just going to have to put up with it.

    (and it's not really all that awful as long as you understand where they are coming from)
     
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  40. Gemini

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    Agreed.......
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
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  41. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Knowing all this plus what you originally wrote you have kind of taken the fun out of the question as you are obviously in the right and she obviously has issues.

    The only debate to me is whether you should have kept quiet as you apparently did, or not. The 'or not' has many different options from just doing a Nelson haha in her face http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/haha.wav to letting her have it with both barrels http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/sounds/full_metal_jacket/ugly.wav.
    Based on what you've said about her I don't think a confrontation is going to solve anything.
     
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  42. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    The part I find most amusing is that this time it was the pusher that was complaining about their opponent's style of play not being fun. Usually it is the other way around!
     
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  43. Gemini

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    I hear what you're saying. As a captain, to hear a player make that remark about practice for "fun" concerns me though. That tells me that every time she comes out to practice, she's not trying to develop as a player and she's completely content to stay in that safe place win or lose. Granted, she wins a fair bit with her style of game in doubles at her level but I would rather have someone who wins less with an attitude of building his/her game for the future than someone who wins consistently but is essentially stuck because they refuse to develop his/her skills.

    I recruit players that have the basics and can compete well on their given levels but are willing to take a chance/risk and add a new skill. Overall, it helps us move forward as a team.
     
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  44. seleswannabe

    seleswannabe Rookie

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    Regarding kicking her off the team....I wouldn't do that, especially in this situation. We are in the same circle of friends and our daughters are friends from school. Also, at my club, the captain is more of the organizer while the coaches are the ones who "boot" people off teams. I think it's for good reason.
     
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  45. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ninety percent of the people I know fit this description and are happy with how they play and have no desire to develop as a player. It's very hard to fill a team with those who comprise the other 10% . . .
     
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  46. maverick66

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    So what if she got mad and made a petty comment. You play your tennis. Its not your job to make others look good. All you can do is play as well as you can and let others worry about there own game. She got killed and her ego got hurt. By saying something other then asking the pro what she could have done differently she is showing a lack of wanting to improve. If i was the pro the score wouldnt have been my issue but where she put the blame.
     
    #46
  47. seleswannabe

    seleswannabe Rookie

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    ^^Agreed Cindy. At 3.0 you pretty much take what you can get and hope to have enough people to play. Sad but true.
     
    #47
  48. cak

    cak Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,013
    The only way you might possibly consider what you did out of line is if you are seriously short singles players and needed to stroke her ego to keep her on your available roster. Otherwise I think you were right. (Unfortunately, any team I've ever been on begs for singles players, and if you happen to beat one you win their spot, no matter how much better you are at doubles.)
     
    #48
  49. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,546
    Location:
    Arizona
    So in a dilemma over losing a meet and taking her crap you'd worry about losing a tennis meet? I wouldn't care much about winning or losing some adult, league thing, (esp. for 3.0s). I wouldn't take her garbage just so I don't lose some 'meet'. My opinion/values, anyway.
     
    #49
  50. 10sfreak

    10sfreak Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2006
    Messages:
    698
    Location:
    Georgia
    seleswannabe, I don't think you did anything wrong at all. Furthermore, I think your teammate was way out of line.
     
    #50

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