Was I really out of line here?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by seleswannabe, May 19, 2009.

  1. cak

    cak Professional

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    I'm not sure what you mean by a tennis 'meet'. The dilemma is fielding a team for a season, which is up to 14 regular season team matches. Sometimes the captain finds putting up with the petty, egotistical player is worth it. Sometimes not. The question is, does she need the player. If not you certainly don't have to baby her.
     
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  2. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Can't see how you'd need any of them. It's only 3.0 tennis. No money or prestige.
     
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  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, but the same can be said of men's 4.5 tennis. No money, no prestige. Yet people will come to blows over it. Level has nothing to do with it.

    Either you have to take some crap to avoid defaults, or you have enough people that you don't.
     
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  4. Gemini

    Gemini Hall of Fame

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    I've never found that to be the case. I'm not sure where you and Cindy are seles..but I've been able to find lots of players for respective teams that are looking to improve from the 3.0 level here in the Atlanta. I don't play on that level but I've helped build several men's teams with ambitious players because I'm actively "recruiting" players for various teams with certain "character traits". I leave the captaining to the captains but help them find players that have an A-gameplan but are more than willing to work on their B & C-gameplans to become better players.
     
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  5. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    That makes you very fortunate indeed.

    I find that people are, well, busy. They have little kids. They have limited funds. They have husbands who aren't keen on the stay-at-home wife dashing off to play tennis and leaving them home alone to take care of the kids after a day of work. They are at whatever level they are at, and they see no reason to kill themselves to get to the next level, where they will simply have to play stronger players.

    And they sometimes conclude that, despite the instruction they are getting and the practice they are doing, they still don't play any better or differently.

    It takes a ton of commitment to improve in tennis. I can understand why people decide not to bother, but it makes it hard to find players who will try to improve.

    I'm starting up a new 7.5 combo team in the fall. So far, we have no 4.0 players, so it will be tough sledding. I have a few 3.5s who take clinics and do seem to want to improve and are willing to practice. Hopefully, this core group will improve and become the 4.0 players that the team needs.
     
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  6. seleswannabe

    seleswannabe Rookie

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    We've got 4-5 five people who play well at singles, so this is not a concern.

    Gemini - I am in Michigan and Tennis is pretty popular here. We have 2 daytime 3.0 teams, a 3.0 Working Women's and a 3.0 Senior team. Same setup for 3.5. I think some of the problem is supply/demand here.
     
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  7. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    It really depends on the personality of the team - IOW, I've been on USTA teams that were all about the winning & others that were all about the beer after the match.. Lately seeing how my game has went to the toilet, it's about the beer.
    I think on a team when you're playing sets there should be communication between points, work on weaknesses with each other, talk... it's a team, right ?
    That is, unless your competing for seeding on the team, then let the hair down a little... both barrels.
     
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  8. Gemini

    Gemini Hall of Fame

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    Cindy,

    You're exactly right! The time people would have to invest in improving is considerable. I've been fortunate enough to find guys that have total family involvement in tennis (and other athletic endeavors). Both husband, wife and sometimes the kids play so it's a trade off. There are surprising few guys on the respective teams I prospect for that do not have tennis-playing wives. The remaining guys are single (so-to-speak) so the family commitment isn't really an issue for them
     
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  9. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I suppose so. There's no money at the 4.5 level, but a 4.5 is a pretty good player. Not good enough to get a ranking anywhere, though, so probably can't really win prestige. Depends how far we'll take the word "crap". You have to "put up" with people, but people who are repeatedly rude, I'd try to avoid them. Can't stand deliberate rudeness. Maybe this is off topic, but at one time I played several tournaments every year. You can do that on your own. What does someone get out of joining a team? Tennis is an individual sport. The existence of a team doesn't really change that. There seems to be alot of downside, but I can't see the upside.
     
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  10. Verno Inferno

    Verno Inferno New User

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    The stuff during the match was just fine, by my book. Maybe you could have handled things differently afterwards. I'm betting she felt like a loser, and she took it out on you. Instead of apologizing (which is sorta patronizing---nobody wants an "I'm sorry" from someone who beat them soundly), I'd suggest, especially since you're the captain, you could have given her pointers on the service return.

    "You could at least give me a serve I can return."

    "Yikes, I know. I saw you were having trouble with that kick serve. That's why it's my favorite---a lot of people at our level have problems with it. But when you're returning a kick serve, you can do (a), (b) and (c) and it will neutralize it. Let's give it a shot next week. You'll like the results. You have good groundstrokes, so if you can just get these serves back you can work yourself back into any point and you'll probably start breaking more serves."

    That's my lame After School Special script. But seriously, something like that probably would have gone better than "I'm sorry that I kicked your butt so soundly."

    Good luck, though! I don't have the patience for captaining something like this :)
     
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  11. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    It's easy. With league, you know exactly when and where you will play, with plenty of notice. I can tell you now I will get about 11 matches over our 10-week season, and most of mine will be on weeknights because that is what I prefer.

    With tournaments, you are at the mercy of the tournament schedule and you have to work around that. If you have kids to take to soccer practices on Saturdays and other family or work commitments, tournmaments are tough. Then add in that you can pay your fee and get bounced in the first round.
     
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  12. ttbrowne

    ttbrowne Hall of Fame

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    Haven't read the other posts but...

    Wasn't your opponent TRYING to win by lobbing the whole set?!

    Another thing too, if both of you are practicing...
    She's practicing on her lobs and you are practicing on putting kick on your serves.
     
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  13. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    I would just be concerned because if she's complaining about not being able to deal with your game, then what happens when she meets someone like that in a real match.

    The problem with having the position of trying to be the team where you expect everyone to improve is that most of these teams also try to assign matches fairly to everyone as well.

    So you get stuck putting players in a situation where they may not do well and someone else that you sat out would of done better. (which isnt "fair" because maybe the person you sat out has been working a lot harder then someone else)

    That's why my team is not like that. I try to give everyone a "reasonable" amount of matches, but if someone is truely better and has improved they get to play more, that's the bottom line.

    Im not a tennis pro either, we dont do drills in practice, or teach lessons, if players want to improve (and thus get more playing time) they need to do that on their own, not look to their USTA League team for that.

    We just play matches at practice and that's just for extra match experience more then anything. The expectation is that you should play that match just like it was for real.

    Im concerned more with attitude then anything (attitude in getting thru a match).

    If you have some pusher on your team who's winning, chances are it's completely out of your control whether they will change, they usually play like that for a reason (usually underdeveloped poor technique or just a general mentality).

    Use them where they think they will win, and if they want to stay at 3.0 and keep winning, that's their issue.

    I wouldnt worry too much about it unless it eventually means you find it hard to place them in matches on your team.

    I have a guy at 3.5 like that, he'll beat almost any 3.5 singles player but at doubles he's a huge liability, we have tons of great singles players so it's hard to put him in a match, again though that's my fault for putting him on the team.

    I had thoughts of him improving as well but that's totally up to him I cant be in any way responsible for that.
     
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  14. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Know what the best thing is? My town has leagues, but they're for singles and doubles, not teams. It lasts about ten weeks, and the matches are held in the evening on the same day of the week. You play each player in the league. My schedule won't allow it for me, but I have been an alternate, and played a couple matches. You don't have to worry about getting knocked out first round like in a tournament, and it's pretty hassle free. I was started a team myself, long time ago. But then I saw it as the only way to play real matches at my level. If I ever get enough time again, (before I'm too old to play), I think I'd enter leagues by myself.
     
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  15. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    That might be more for you, but there is some quality to being on a team.

    The problem is a lot of the "teams" are just a random selection of people who are just there to get their tennis in anyway so that's why it's hard to see the difference.

    If you look at other sports which are more traditionally known as team sports there are a lot of concepts that the layman doesn't even consider that goes on outside of the actual game itself.

    Those are team chemistry, planning, unselfishness, and just the general feeling of belonging to a group.

    I dont want to go into too much detail but if you're on the right tennis team those are all there.

    But once you get onto the court obviously it's an individual sport. (except if you consider that 6 of the 8 players play doubles usually which is a team sport within itself)

    Really if you dont have those things I think not only is it less fun to play on these teams, it's even less fulfilling to try to run one. (after all Im not the tennis match maker, we dont get paid or anything to be captain of a League team)

    This is also another reason I would have an issue with anyone who's "laying into me" in front of everyone on the team.

    That's just a bad attitude to have and I cant personally stand people who whine and complain all the time about stuff. I lose matches all the time and I know the worst thing you can do is start to whine, and saying "waah, you didnt play the right way!!!!" is the worst.

    If they are not happy, they should leave, or if they want to discuss it with me rationally they can talk to me in private. (and I think they are making themselves look bad more then anything)
     
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  16. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    That actually made me laugh. (I don't believe most "lol"s). Is tennis the only game where people contribute a loss to the opponents bad playing? When my older brother first started teaching me tennis, he explained that the only reason I won lots of points off him was because I was such a bad player he couldn't get a rythm. He said that after I improved I wouldn't get any points at all. I found this baffling. Even more curious, is that now, I recognise that there is some truth to it. How many threads have I seen that go, "I'm doing what my instructor says to do, my opponent does everything wrong. Yet I'm the one who losses! Go figure."
     
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  17. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    That'll teach HER to play with the likes of you :lol:

    She'll live :mrgreen:
     
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  18. Sublime

    Sublime Semi-Pro

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    Guess how you learn to handle a moonballer / lobber...
    Guess how she eventually learns to handle a kick serve...

    There's a guy on our team that has a wicked kick serve... it breaks a good 3 or 4 feet and gets up over your shoulder at the baseline. Guess which serve I ask him to hit to me at practice?

    BTW, next time work on your overheads from the baseline. You get those cooking back at her and you'll really get an earful :)
     
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  19. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I don't think it is the only game where this happens. My daughter's soccer team was coached by a guy who played Div. 1 college soccer on scholarship, then played a bit of semi-pro soccer after graduation. He's played his whole life and knows head-and-shoulders more about soccer than anyone I've ever met.

    Undoubtedly he was coaching the 10 year old girl's team my daughter played on with the proper techniques and fundamentals and using appropriate soccer strategy and player placement during the game. Unfortunately, the other teams didn't care about all that, they just wanted to win. Their 'strategy' was that they would have almost all of their players around the ball at all times and score goals. Our team, which had some pretty good little athletes on it was constrained by the coaches proper player placement and would get overwhelmed. They lost every game and none of them were close.

    I'm sure our girls will be better off in the long run, those that decide to stay with soccer after that unmerciful season was over anyway, having learned many good techniques and strategies. However, I know for a fact that most of them lost interest and quit because what kid likes getting their tails handed to them each and every week?

    Somehow this anecdote seems related to what you were saying but if not then just ignore it.
     
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  20. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    You cant use 10 yo soccer as an example. there not old enough to have a skill set to beat anything but mad rush to the ball. If you did that at a high school level and on you would get killed by teams that move the ball.
     
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  21. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Here, let me help.

    It sounds like the coach's strategies were out of synch with the players' abilities. It would be like taking beginning tennis players and telling them they must S&V. They will loses matches for about five years until their skills catch up with their strategy.

    : awkward pause :

    Um . . . No, I couldn't relate the soccer story to anything in this thread either, but it was a great story! :)
     
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  22. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I don't know, I think the same applies to tennis. Tennis players above a certain level are not going to be thrown off their game by players with bad technique and poor shot selection. They are going to crush them the vast majority of the time imo.
     
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  23. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I think that in most sports it might be so that what works NOW, is not what you should practice. And in tennis, you look better when playing against better players, and look crummy playing a bad player who sprays it around. Certainly you improve faster in tennis and soccer, playing good players or teams.
     
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  24. burosky

    burosky Professional

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    This is a typical problem with some coaches. It is like teaching someone algebra first before teaching simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.
     
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  25. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    No it doesn't. Ten yo soccer players have not developed into players that can use there skills. Both teams will not be able to play at a high level. Once they get older and able to move the ball around the swarming strategy fails miserably.


    What he was talking about was tennis players who are a decent level losing to ones that are not. What happens is the decent player gets used to a certain ball and can not adjust to the garbage that is coming at them. This is why good players can easily walk past these players as they adjust there game to it.
     
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  26. Gemini

    Gemini Hall of Fame

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    Like I said before, I don't play on the 3.0-4.0 level teams but I do spend a lot of time recruiting for those teams so I tend to seek out players that are ambitious and want to advance their skills. I never said I expect them to improve but they have the willingness to improve.

    What I'm getting at is that the players I recruit have the right attitude and compete well as opposed to those like seleswannabe's opponent. If you get out there and I can see that you're trying different things to improve your shots or affect your opponents shot selection then you're most likely a player I'm going to go after to be on a team.

    Once again, with me not playing on the 3.0-4.0 level teams, I spend a good deal of time aiding (<- is that a word) those captains in scheduling their lineups so that 1.) everyone plays the required minimum of league matches to be eligible for playoffs should that happen and 2.) we have the strongest lineups possible each week given the number of available players.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
    #76
  27. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    go easy

    At 3.0 it's hard to believe you have such a killer serve. But in any case I don't think it benefits anyone to "go easy" on an opponent unless your level is so much higher that you shouldn't really be playing against them in a competitive match. We only learn by playing people who are better than us. That said, try to be encouraging of those who are lesser players than you.
     
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  28. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I believe OP has a killer serve at 3.0, and I've never seen her serve.

    I say that because the definition of a "killer serve" at 3.0 is a serve that other 3.0s struggle to return.

    Hey, I was a 3.0 once, and I had spin on my serves that gave other 3.0s fits. Slice, kick, twist, I had it all. If you're in the habit of chasing bad tosses and you have a Continental grip, you can generate all manner of weirdness with your serve! :)
     
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  29. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    Way out of line imo. To me i would find it insulting if i were playing a practice match and my team captain was deliberately playing below their abilities.
     
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  30. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    As in the other person was way out of line.... not You Seles
     
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  31. NE14Tennis?

    NE14Tennis? New User

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    First off, I don't think you did anything wrong. Secondly, if, after the first two games, you had said to your opponent, "Is it okay if I step it up a bit?" I sincerely doubt she would have said, "Gee, I dunno - this is upposed to be just for fun."

    Secondly, in regards to:
    I couldn't disagree more. I'm in Ann Arbor and have a devil of a time finding players to hit or play with. Maybe other parts of Michigan...
     
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