Wayne Bryan must be reading this forum.....

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by dbordel, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Of course, GA will stop complaining about QS......

    because by then he will be complaining about the new 2014 mandate

    where they cut the national tournaments for the 12's,

    and then for the few National 12's left, they will cut the draw size.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  2. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    See these debates are fine. In the end We have to pay to participate in the system.

    Would you keep Internet service if it eliminated certain sites? How about frequent flyer miles if after every trip they changed the rules? Or if your Visa card changed your agreement every year?

    You can opt out, and given the state of juniors I am sure many will.
     
  3. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    People are angry that there is no level of transparency on the wild cards.

    And the 2014 new changes, why is it so top secret?

    The guy I was going to get it from was told from the USTA not to forward the email.

    I spoke to my sectional office today.

    They confirmed the changes and thought they were bad too for the players.

    But..... they had heard only from a few folks.

    I said how could they....
    the USTA was not putting out there huge changes that would have major ramifications on junior tennis players.
     
  4. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Dude....Since '81, I've have gotten far more than my share of WCs--actually, more than I should have or deserved.

    You're the perfect example of a parent who can relate only to his own experience, and you don't seem to understand what it means to have a GOOD relationship with the USTA and why it's necessary. That is why I cut parents out. I can't have someone like you affect my rep negatively so that when I do ask the powers that be for a favor, they won't say no, nor will they give me a hard time five years after your kid ages-out, and I ask for another favor and they remind me of you as they say "no". I couldn't coach your child and have you foaming at the mouth for all to hear. You need to take a Dale Carnegie course if you want to help your child so that your whining--that only PD kids are taken care of--doesn't hit the wrong person's ears, and only getting your kid hurt in the process, especially because it isn't true.
     
  5. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I have an older child, daughter, who is at an IVY, track.

    So, doing ok.

    My son has a great coach, but it is technical, not to kiss ass.

    I have already seen kids get wc into tournaments and flounder there.

    If you are going to get a wc, shouldn't you at least make the QF?

    And, yeah, I do think it is wrong that they passed over other kids who were ranked higher.

    My son was at these tournaments, and I watched these kids play, nothing special....
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  6. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Is what you wrote have anything to do with what I wrote? What is your point?
     
  7. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    You're having a similar exchange I've had. Circular conversations. Answering questions with questions or responding with new non-related points. May be the biggest whiner and excuse maker on the board.
     
  8. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    I usually only post in the racquet section, but someone suggested to me that it might be helpful to offer some of my professional expertise here and in a few other sections. Unfortunately, on the net, you can't cut the bad parents off as I do in the real world.
     
  9. Sunbeam

    Sunbeam New User

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    Thank you Tennis5

    I have been reading this site daily for quite awhile. I kind of have a feel for each poster at this point. Some make their money recruiting foreigners, some make their money advising parents, money coaching, money carting groups of kids around to tournaments, money channeling players into college programs, academy money, equipment money, clothing lines, etc.

    Lots of reasons to be posting on this site...

    For those people above, especially those using words like 'whining' and 'complaining' to describe Tennis5's posts, I have this to say.

    If you don't think this situation will affect your future income, you are not forward thinking about the state of the 'Junior tennis machine', your 'money making' machine, a few years down the road...

    Tennis5 and a few other posters are the consumers. They are paying the money. Your consumer is upset. There are many, many more like her out there. In many different sections.


    Thank you tennis5 for breaking down all of these changes for the parents. The consumers. We are very interested in our investment. We are very concerned about the poor management practices the USTA has exhibited.

    Our promising athletic kids love many sports and we do have a say in what sport we will spend our money -- for the extra training, the tournaments, the coaching, the weekend trips, the scholarship advisors, the college teams...

    I have had kids playing Junior tennis for over 8 years now. I have never heard so much negative USTA chatter at the clinics, at the tournaments, on this site... The consumers are concerned.
     
  10. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Great to have you here. Your insight is unique and of value here.

    The crazy ones are always the ones who talk about how good a tennis parent they are and how bad tennis kids are always the products of bad parents.
     
  11. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Thank you Tennis5 for your fake alias. There you are again talking about your experience at a tournament and acting if it's how everyone feels or is a scientific study.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  12. Sunbeam

    Sunbeam New User

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    Nope. Sorry Mr. andfor. She is not me.:)
     
  13. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Tennis5 is a woman?
     
  14. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    Andfor, is it your position that these changes are supported by the majority of the tennis parents, players, and coaches?

    I have been at many national tournaments where this subject has been discussed including Level 1, Level 2, Level 3 and Zoanals. So far I have never spoken with or heard a single advocate of the moves made by the USTA. The only people I have found that speak in favor of that changes are the anonymous posters on this forum.
     
  15. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Those who always felt the USTA is about who you know are now thumping their chest with I told you so's.

    What is interesting is the USTA imposes these changes and just like other Junior Athletics the new Parents (10s,12s) only know what the organization tells them, and what other parents say.

    That said, as I see the olders Juniors play very few USTA events I am not so sure that the USTA is not reacting to the trend.

    Are Fewer and Fewer Solid juniors are playing these events? How many of the Top Seeds are USTA Circuit Regulars and how many play an event or two, if they don't get a WC they just head off to an ITF event?
     
  16. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    so what is exactly wrong with the new usta ideas stressing winning locally before getting in the national tourneys? Besides the wild card issue of them using them for their special kids.

    Isn't it better to beat everyone around then move to regional then national? I think it would save on travel for most kids that want to compete. Especially younger kids.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  17. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Andfor,

    This is now the 5th poster that you have accused me of being, starting with DB's dad.

    Is this a record?
     
  18. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    True or not. It's no more weakly supported compared to your many positions.
     
  19. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Yes, the posters are broken down into:

    1) USTA insiders, or people trying to kiss up to the USTA, mostly the latter.

    2) Foreign players

    3) American parents who played college tennis and want their kids to be pros.

    4) Foreign parents who want their kids to be pros.

    5) American and Foreign parents who want their kids to play college tennis.

    6) Coaches

    7) People who siphon money off the parents through advisement.
    Some good, some bad.

    The plusses of this site is I have learned some interesting technical information, had some laughs, and most importantly learned about the changes.

    In return, I have tried to offer solid advice, and get the word out there about impending changes that will hurt juniors.
    THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THREATENING TO SOME ON THIS BOARD.
    THEY DON'T WANT THE CHANGES ADVERTISED. WONDER WHY?
     
  20. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I really don' think my writing style is like anyone's on this board.
    ( I mention that as how you could accuse me of being DB's dad is wild....)

    And my positions, are for all the kids, whether my kid is affected or not.

    While we are at it, I actually don't think you even have a junior.

    In the past, you spoke about how your kid was done with his tournament on Saturday, and it was a national tournament weekend.
     
  21. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Two points I am addressing:

    so what is exactly wrong with the new usta ideas stressing winning locally before getting in the national tourneys?

    1) The problem is the sections are not all the same.

    Some kids in a really strong section such as SoCal or Florida, will never leave their section again.

    Also, the TRN rankings wouldn't be accurate.

    For example, I was looking at the tournaments this past weekend.

    A kid ( say player A) from the NE beat a kid ( player B) much higher than him ( different section) .

    Then player B ( same tournament) beat a higher ranked kid, player C, from another section.

    But, under the new rules, player A would never leave his section because he is not one of the top ranked kids from the Eastern section ( which has a shocking number of good players).

    Sorry, this is sorta of convoluted, but do you see the point?

    JustinMadison said it much better than me, pulling the quote:

    If you are in a weaker section you need national tournaments to find better competition.
    If you are in a strong section you need national tournaments to give you a chance to get points
    by beating the top kids from a weaker section.


    America can not make great tennis players if you limit the play.
    My son gets better playing different kids, better kids, and different styles.
    When he loses to a better kid, it shows the weakness in his game.
    Also, for national tournaments, he always picks an outdoor location.
    While it might be more challenging to go from indoor, and then fly in on Friday night ( not allowed to miss school),
    and play outdoors on Saturday, his goal is to play college tennis at a school which is not indoors.



    I think it would save on travel for most kids that want to compete. Especially younger kids

    I think the US parents want to make that decision for themselves.

    Some folks on this board have the goal of pro for their kid, and for them, they don't want their juniors stuck playing the same kids over and over again.

    I also think parents don't want mandates handed down to them.

    The 10 and under could have been handled so much better.
    QS for the kids who wanted to learn that way, and regular tennis for the kids who have been on the full court.

    I understand the USTA is grasping at straws here, but it is the pushing it down someone's throat that is upsetting.

    I thought the changes for 10 and under would be not affect these kids once they reached age 11,
    but with the new mandate in 2014 of cutting tournaments and draw sizes for 12 and under, they are taking away opportunities for kids to play.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  22. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Tennis Maverick,

    I was responding to your post about Dale Carnegie course and the wild cards.
     
  23. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Yes, it is bad parenting to educate folks on this board about the upcoming changes for 2014.

    While I had, in the past, appreciated your pressing remarks for education,
    you lost all credibility and respect by posting the remark about Troy:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=386628&page=47

    " Rah-Rah" school for chimpanzees like Troy. "

    I don't think it is lost on anyone on this board what the breakdown of
    race or ethnicity is at Troy.


    Also, offering this advice to a college freshman:
    "Creatine is a proven performance enhancer, and, whatever you take, will not be an issue. Your team isn't going far enough to get tested by any organization. Unless your department spends the money on testing, you can take anything which makes you feel or perform better",

    really makes me think you should stay in the racquet section where you wouldn't call anyone, "Mr. Foreigner".
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  24. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    JustinMadison made this comment: "So far I have never spoken with or heard a single advocate of the moves made by the USTA." COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

    We are not parents---We are a video company that focuses exclusively on junior tennis and we travel to 25+ junior tournaments each year. We are surrounded by parents in the junior tennis community and we HAVE NOT MET A SINGLE PERSON WHO IS NOT CONFUSED, UNHAPPY, AND INCREASINGLY ANGRY WITH ALL THE CHANGES. The USTA is extraordinarily unpopular...

    Don't bash me - I'm just sharing an observation from the trenches. What will happen? WHO KNOWS---but I'm pretty sure it won't be good for junior tennis.
     
  25. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I am sure I will be accused of being you next...

    Thanks for sharing your insights about what you have heard from many folks at many tournaments.
     
  26. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Thank you for saying this!

    I was the target of that "Mr. Foreigner" quote. That was a weak attempt at a dig and it didn't bother me.

    But the Troy and Creatine things......I believe......both demeaned and insulted the entire Board and were counterproductive for youngsters to consider as professional or serious advice.

    Back on topic, on a spectrum with Wayne Bryan on one end and McEnroe on the other..........I am closer to the Bryan side.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  27. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    A post I made 8/25/2010

    Here we are 17 months later and I can provide further insight into how this experience helped my son. After coming home with his new appreciation of what it takes he worked incredibly hard with his coach and made it to the finals of the same level 2 the next year. Under the new system he would never have been allowed to be in the draw and see what it took to win. Without that understanding he most likely would never have been able to play so effectively at the next level.

    We are now planning to take that experience away from an entire generation of junior players and we are somehow convincing ourselves it will help them.

    Very sad
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  28. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I am sure I will be accused of being you next.

    This board has some posters on it who are disrespectful and
    making remarks that are highly inappropriate.

    I do wish there was an administrator who would take off the chimpanzee remark,
    I guess I am a "whiner" and a "complainer",
    but I was deeply offended by that comment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  29. dbordel

    dbordel New User

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    where is the like button?:)
     
  30. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    What an insult!!!!

    (That's supposed to be self-deprecating humor.)

    Again, I agree with your comments. Note there is a feature to "report" posts. See the red-bordered triangle over on the left side
     
  31. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I didn't know that. Thanks.
     
  32. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Great points.

    From talking to parents at tournament, the hardest hit are the 16's aging up into the 18's, and missing exposure at the national level.

    One dad was telling me how his son, ( sorry, I only know the boy's side), has a spring birthday.

    He is a junior and turns 17 this June.

    This summer, he won't make any of the draws as he has no 18 points.

    While, he will be ok for the following summer, to get into the tournaments,
    he will be a graduating senior.

    (Now, for someone like Noah Rubin, a sophomore, who turned 15 this winter,
    he won't have any problems getting into the 18's, as he plays up.
    But, he is the rare individual, and most likely not even going to college).

    For for the rest of the kids, many are missing a very important summer of exposure to college coaches
    ( junior into senior year).

    The USTA is aware that less and less Americans are playing college tennis,
    but I wonder if they ever thought through the above situations where the junior going into senior year is not seen at the summer tournaments?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  33. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    I heard it from my grandmother who heard it from her aunt that heard it from ...... is this what you are basing your "FACTS" on? anything can happen in two years? Did you speak with the player development head of your section?
     
  34. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    ProTour,

    Please read my whole post here.

    I starting to feel like a broken record.

    I initially heard about it from a friend who owns a few tennis centers.

    He was going to forward it to me, but then called and said the USTA said not to forward it.
    ( I had started a thread a few weeks ago, asking if anyone heard about it).

    A few days, ago, another poster said he did, but he was told not to publicize the document.

    Then, on the thread, From the Trenches, Watergirl posted the entire document.

    Please go back and read that thread - 3 long posts from her.

    From the Trenches - page 2
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=410674&page=4

    It is a bit difficult to read, but the main points are there.

    I called the head of my sectional office, and asked about the upcoming changes for 2014.
    It was confirmed, but I was told no one was calling them....
    I said, no one knew about it because the USTA did not publicize it.

    This is very much like the last changes, and I only learned about them from reading JustininMadison's thread.
     
  35. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    This is what I'm talking about. However, Tennis5 will find it odd coming from me, she has many points I do not entirely disagree with.

    If she spent half as much time interacting or persistently trying to interact with the USTA as she does here, I bet that would be more productive and she would ruffle a few feathers. Maybe even push them to change.

    I will say the whole USTA High Performance selecting a few kids, wildcard distribution and new tournament and points format appears to like some parents are mad at the USTA for making their kids have to win more to earn their way.

    Did the USTA act rashly making the changes and not informing folks in advance of the changes? Yes.

    Fair or unfair, right or wrong that's how I see it.
     
  36. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Tennis5, keep up the good posts and threads.

    It's surprising how readily these teaching pros (on here) are willing to take our money for lessons, workout, etc., but will come on here and just bash our concerns about the state of the USTA junior tennis.

    Don't worry, if these guys were good coaches, they would not have time to post on here 24/7.
     
  37. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    -----------------------
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  38. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    AndFor,

    The document is now here for anyone to read. Not a secret anymore.

    I did call my sectional office. ( Every section has one).
    I confirmed the upcoming changes, they confirmed there would be a vote.
    I expressed displeasure.

    The changes haven't happened yet....

    I hope that others will reach out to their sectional office and voice their concerns.
     
  39. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I don't think that some of these guys are coaches....

    My son's coach doesn't know, and doesn't care.

    He only cares about the technical aspects of my son's game.
     
  40. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    In defense of coaches, this is a lot to understand. We work with current - informed -uptodate - kind of coaches, but I still had to keep them up on the importance of playing this or that in terms of ranking/positioning. They looked at playing something in terms of development which was their focus, as it should be.

    But what is the trickle down effect they all aren't seeing yet, is those striving for higher levels spend a lot more money on training. If you cut those levels off to many players (which is what these changes do), there goes the training for it and the income from those players. Academies and other programs in general will definitely feel this too. Ya, there are a lot of long term implications...
     
  41. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Great advice! Thank you.

    First, my son is a boy, and I don't know if all boys are like this....
    but, he is not a deep thinker of how it all works.
    His deal is get me there, I just want to play.
    I don't involve him with any details, I want his focus to be on his schoolwork.

    The insight you have told me about how it keeps changing,
    I knew parts of it, not all of it...

    My son is coming from a different sport, and there was not really one organization that wielded this kind of power. Worst experience would be a bad ref, and that happened maybe, once a year.

    The advice I got from this board was really helpful for the changes we are currently in.
    My son has been playing up for the past 9 months, and I wouldn't have known to do it without reading this board....

    I guess I want to return the favor and let people know.

    And I am a believer that people can change a system.
    I hope my one phone call will be one of hundreds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  42. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    This is why I don't understand how these coaches can come on here and just bully/name calling (whining, complainers) us parents. They make their living off of us. Of course we parents are going to get upset, it AFFECTS our kids.

    If you coaches can behave like this on here, I can't image what you are like teaching our kids.
     
  43. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Lots of good points.

    One of the big wigs who owns a lot of tennis centers,
    said this would have a chilling effect on the high level tournament players.

    However, he said a lot of their money came from the rec players,
    and they were "clueless".

    He is a friend... loves tennis, but loves the money more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  44. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Live-in academies that serve out-of-the section students may be hit the most. They will probably encourage their students not to participate in USTA system.
     
  45. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    We have one next to my daughters academy and they are saying exactly that. As I have said living in SoFla we are ~3hrs from many ITF events. Not an option for most but will work for us.
     
  46. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    I'm thankful for parents like Tennis5 who post information on this forum. I think that the more info that is out there, the more informed choices I can make. That being said, I'm not sure how all these changes will affect my son, a high level sectional player who has ventured out only once out of our section to play a national tournament. The changes are being kept hush hush and from the outside do not appear to be very helpful in developing junior tennis competition. As I have written in earlier posts, I do not trust the USTA's motivations for these changes. It has an agenda that is only self-serving and I and other parents who are in the same boat have to figure out how to work around it. At this moment, I don't know how.
     
  47. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    Ok I just got this from my section, as I figured:

    There is a proposal from the uSTA National Jr Comp Committee to change the USTA National Jr Tournament Schedule and calendar and some draw sizes. This will be voted on in March at the USTA Annual meeting. This proposal includes adding one more Level 4 and one more Level 3 tournament to each usta section. 12s draw sizes should still be at least 128 and the NE quota could be increased and will not be decreased.
    the final proposal is not yet available and even then until anything is voted on and passed it carries no credibility.


    everyone can go home now
     
  48. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the update Pro.
     
  49. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    Interesting. Your email matches exactly with parts of the description posted in this thread. Your email fails to mention all of the items that people on this thread are concerned about. Your advice is to wait until after the “proposal” is voted on and passed before we begin to worry about it.

    Sounds like weird advice to me. Most people would want to get involved in the process before it is passed and set in stone.
     
  50. watergirl

    watergirl New User

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    The person I got it from said they were told by the USTA to not distribute it.
     

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