Wayne Bryan must be reading this forum.....

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by dbordel, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    At the end of the day when we tell foreign college tennis players who are applying for a visa for a scholarship to leave our country ( denying them a visa) because we have a limit is just plain......................... WRONG.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  2. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    After further thought, I agree with you. Not only is it wrong, it's silly.
     
  3. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Who said anyone should be denied a student visa?

    Most foreign college students are not on scholarship and that has nothing to do with getting a student visa.
     
  4. BSPE84

    BSPE84 Semi-Pro

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  5. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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  6. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks for posting. Very informative.

    Basically, with the huge state cutbacks that all states face, education gets hit hard... At all levels, elementary too :(, there are cuts.

    This article states how one state university is trying to deal with the harsh economic realities of having less money,
    although on a personal note, no one's own personal taxes ever get slashed?


    I pulled this from the article you posted:

    "With state financing slashed by more than half in the last three years,
    university officials decided to pull back on admissions offers to Washington residents, and increase them to students overseas.

    That has rankled some local politicians and parents, a few of whom have even asked Michael K. Young, the university president, whether their children could get in if they paid nonresident tuition. "



    And another interesting article below
    ( that btw, was posted on many college chat sites and had many comments:))

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/w...-in-india-students-turn-to-united-states.html

    Squeezed Out in India, Students Turn to U.S.
    By NIDA NAJAR
    Published: October 13, 2011


    NEW DELHI — Moulshri Mohan was an excellent student at one of the top private high schools in New Delhi. When she applied to colleges, she received scholarship offers of $20,000 from Dartmouth and $15,000 from Smith. Her pile of acceptance letters would have made any ambitious teenager smile: Cornell, Bryn Mawr, Duke, Wesleyan, Barnard and the University of Virginia.


    Bottom line, tennis is one small component of the many changes that are happening in the colleges.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2012
  7. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    Insulting the people that disagree with you is a popular method of debate on this forum. I do not believe it helps you make the better argument.

    For me that debate has been about access to the team and less about receiving scholarship money. Many of the people in the article seem to share that view and are concerned the number of foreign students will limit the access to the university.

    “... legislators and taxpayers still feel deep ownership of the state institutions created to serve homegrown students — and worry that something is awry when local high achievers, even valedictorians, are rejected by the campuses they have grown up aspiring to.

    “My constituents want a slot for their kid,” said Reuven Carlyle, a Democrat state representative from Seattle. “I hear it at the grocery store every day, and I’ve got four young kids myself, so I get it.”

    You can substitute “4 star player” for “valedictorians” in the article and it is the same argument being made on this thread.
     
  8. BSPE84

    BSPE84 Semi-Pro

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    Can't disagree. But I guess the reality of it all in these economic times is that there is no free lunch. Someone needs to pay, whether it's with an opportunity (tennis or otherwise), or just cold hard cash. If the article is correct in stating that one quarter of the in-state freshmen needs financial aid, then you have to wonder if those who benefited would really be there had the school put a limit on foreigners... Right or wrong, it obviously is not a good situation for our kids if things keep going in this direction. Hopefully the economy will improve and the financial pressure will be off the admissions office.
     
  9. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Do you know that they recruited a zero-star player? Do you realize that any kid who is admitted to Mercer can list a verbal commitment to Mercer on his TRN page, even if the coach has never heard of him?

    Take a look at the 2011 recruiting class for men at Virginia. It says we got two commitments: Mitchell Frank, the top recruit in the nation (along with Marcos Giron, and not counting Jack Sock who turned pro), and a zero-star recruit from ... Georgia! Wow! I did not realize that Virginia was recruiting zero-star recruits! The funny thing is, I have been to three home matches this weekend for Virginia, and I did not even see this player practicing or warming up, let alone playing in the lineup. Why did we recruit him if we are not even going to let him practice with the team?

    It is really hard to have constructive discussion when people cannot get the basic facts right.
     
  10. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Right, ClarkC.

    By the way, that so-called "zero-star" player had a high ranking of #268 on TRN in 2011 before she tore her ACL. That's firmly in 3-star territory. She had also been ranked as high as #11 in Georgia.

    So Miss Zero-Star, if you are reading this, congratulations on your recovery from injury and on your scholarship to Mercer. Sounds like you deserved it and your level of play will fit in well with your team. Haven't seen you.....or the Macon 1-star or 2-star mentioned above......play, but on paper I'd agree with the Mercer coach and put my money on you!
     
  11. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    For all we know, she had to walk on her first year and try to earn a scholarship for the second year.

    EDIT: She claims on her TRN page to have signed an NLI, which should mean she got a scholarship.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  12. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    The young lady was indeed recruited.

    And thanks for pointing out how people cannot get their "basic facts right." You are a nice example of that.
     
  13. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Now you are backtracking on your original statements.

    You earlier claimed that 3 and 4 star American players were not "qualified" for division I tennis.

    It's great that Mercer has recruited some American tennis players finally.

    Most US schools could do the same with some effort.

    It's absurd that Mercer's group for the past few years was something like 2 americans out of 14 players.


    Certainly this was not because US players are not qualified. After all, Mercer has a really awful losing record with 12 out of 14 players being from overseas.

    There are plenty of US juniors would could keep up that losing record just fine...maybe even do a bit better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  14. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    Actually, admission to the college isn't at all a prerequisite to a indicating a verbal commitment on TRN. Lots of kids--in my daughter's class, a significant majority of players ranked 200 or better--had indicated verbal commitments well in advance of any admissions decisions.
     
  15. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I believe Mr. Bill is not back tracking and likely said the 3 and 4 stars may not all be qualified for BCS tennis schools. You should provide the quote. Maybe Mr. Bill will respond.

    In a vacuum your statement about using Americans to lose in place of the foreigners doing so makes sense. However, without knowing what the coach is up against to even get American talent equivalent or close to their current foreign talent is presumptive at best.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  16. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    This is a challenge.

    Post up where I said this.

    If I did, I will retract.

    If I didn't, we'll see if you are big enough to do the right thing.

    For all youngsters out there, of course 3-star and 4-stars can.....and do....play DI tennis. The facts are out there for all to see. Try to distinguish between posters who are making sincere efforts to put out valid information and opinions.......and those who are just trying to rabble-rouse
     
  17. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    I live in Georgia. One of my daughter's close friends is a 3-star player (this is a boy) who was accepted to Mercer and was given a substantial Merit scholarship, but he has had no success (as of the last time I spoke to his mom) of getting this coach to return contact.

    They have emailed the coach a couple of times.

    The boy even went for an overnight visit but had no contact with the tennis team.

    Maybe there is some other explanation or maybe the coach is really ignoring this kid.

    I think him and his mom are a little clueless about the process including not listing the school as a school of interest on TRN.

    However, I would have thought the coach would be contacting these sorts of players cold and trying to recruit them.

    My daughter was certainly contacted by many, many coaches this year without having to initiate contact or list them on TRN.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  18. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    NCAA rules govern contact by coach's with players. You are allowed to visit/contact the coach about general questions but questions about a specific kid is considered RECRUITING and there are limits to the number of these contacts.

    For Example my daughter attended the NIKE camp run by UGA. The UGA staff was nice and I tried to contact them to thank them for an issue. Unless I reach them in the office, they are not allowed to call me back. Plain and simple NCAA rules.
     
  19. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Is your daughter a senior?

    I don't think it is against any rules for a senior to email a coach and say "Hello, I am xxxx and have been accepted to your school. I am interested in playing for your team next year. Can you please tell me about ABC...."

    My daughter is a senior and just went through this whole process. I'm not an expert on recruiting rules, but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the above type email.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  20. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    I'm not going to go searching through all of your posts.

    The gist of what you were saying seemed to me to be if X player did not get recruited to Y school, then X player was not "qualified."

    We spent most of the thread talking about 3 and 4 star players.

    However, if that is not what you said or meant, then please accept my apology.
     
  21. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    No my daughter is not in HS yet. I am a booster with FSU and ex-Athlete. Boosters are given rules of contact.

    NCAA rules govern EVERY contact a coach has with any prospective Player. If she was ENROLLED in the University you'd be correct.

    Someone in the Athletic Department should have told you, I think I got a link I'll post for Parents.

    LINK is dead its on Ncaa.org under parents resources.

    So no the Coach cannot and will not email her back unless its a general question about the program.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  22. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Here's are the charts

    http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/recruiting_calendars/2011/I/Overview%20Chart.pdf

    http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/recruiting_calendars/2011/I/Other%20Sport%20Guide.pdf


    Div 1 Coaches may send recruiting materials after Sept 1 of junior year

    Coaches may initiate telephone calls, once per week after July 1 following junior year

    Just as one example, Nebraska has a verbal already from a girl in the class of 2013.

    Clearly, coaches may initiate emails and respond to incoming calls and emails after Sept 1 of junior year.

    EDIT: the rules for DIII are less restrictive, I will try to find them if anyone is interested
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  23. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    As you know the recruiting process is different for everyone. I have spoke to many coaches that say they get slammed with emails and that a phone call from a recruit is better. Also, coaches have told me they get little snail mail and a traditional postage stamped letter is likely to be read.
     
  24. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Thanks. I am aware of the rules and I've even read them but I don't know that well.

    But I do think it is okay for a coach to respond to a senior who initiates contact.

    My daughter initiated one contact with a coach, who responded and then went on to recruit her.

    Lots of other times, there are RECRUIT ME questionnaires on the website, and the coaches will contact you after that.

    Also, lots of coaches just call or email you based on your TRN profile and results.
     
  25. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I agree. I think the kid could have done more to get noticed.

    But I would think the coach, himself, would be doing a lot more to at least get the attention of local Georgia kids.

    I'm basing this on the recruiting efforts of some of the better schools in Georgia and how open the coaches have been to my daughter.

    I don't know. I just think the Mercer situation is very strange.
     
  26. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I agree with that.

    And, as a general rule I believe coaches prefer to hear from the recruit directly.......rather than from an agent....or heaven forbid......the parents
     
  27. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    OK it seems you know the road. That one coach that answered her logged it and proceeded. The Coach that is not responding is either out of contacts, or saving his contacts for other folks.

    As for coaches calling after kids enter a survey's there are rules regarding those contact that are different than if the player or parents contact them directly.

    Good Luck.
     
  28. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Relax, coaches help get kids into the school, as a walk on. I suspect that's what happened to the ZERO star at Virgina.
     
  29. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    What happened to "chivalry".

    As we know, there is a women poster on here, yet you guys gang up on her, or try to call her out.

    She apologizes when she is wrong, or give incorrect information.

    "Why can't we all get along?"
     
  30. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Thanks :)

    .....
     
  31. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    That's your quote.

    I don't know why anybody would make a statement like that, which is not correct. There are 3 & 4 stars playing at BCS schools.

    Also, why would you make a statement like that when there are 3 & 4 star kids on here?

    --------------------------------------------
    I like the new and improved TCF, welcome back!
     
  32. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Goodness gracious. That is what I said. And I'm standing by it!

    PS: I don't tailor my posts depending on anyone's suspected gender. That would be patronizing and insulting.
     
  33. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Maybe you misunderstood my post, that was directed at andfor.
     
  34. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I understood your post. And I disagree with you that members of the community should tailor their posts depending on anyone else's suspected gender. That seems so 1940s to me.

    Not trying to convert others. No problem if others post differently if they think they are posting with women as opposed to men. I will just try to be equal. (that can be equally good or equally bad, depending on the opinion of the reader)

    Getting back to the point, would like to hear others' expectations for various levels of recruits.....bearing in mind that some may think we are getting a bit off-topic.
     
  35. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    ............................
     
  36. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    I guess gentleman will be gentleman...
     
  37. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Ok I'll change it a little. I was trying to make a point. 3 and 4 stars may not all be qualified for all BCS tennis schools. But for these kids any parent or coach telling them they are a lock to play at the BCS school of their choice is doing them a great disservice. And if they don't get to play at their BCS college of choice blaming it on foriegn tennis players is dishonest.

    Now what I'd like to see more of is 3 and 4 star kids not only striving for BCS tennis programs but also having a fall back plan with interest in programs a notch (mid-major) or below (small d1 to top d2 or d3) if they don't get into their dream school. I know most kids have this type of plan. I just want all tennis playing juniors have a back up plan.

    Any parent or coach would be prudent to make sure any perspective college athlete has multiple school options to choose from.

    I encourage striving for and always playing to the highest level one can achieve. I also encourage all tennis kids to play in college. There are many college tennis opportunities for those willing to embrace options. Also to remember grad school at their dream institution and a grad assistantship to the tennis program is also possible.

    I also respect anyone who forgoes athletics for academics. However, don't come back 1, 5 20 years later and tell us they didn't play college tennis for other bogus reasons. I hear glory days stories all to often.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  38. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Even though this may be considered an insult by some........I agree with you.

    I think all kids should be made aware of what the realistic expectations are, and should be encouraged to try to exceed them
     
  39. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Very realistic. Great post!
     
  40. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Not so sure about first statement, but love the second one.
     
  41. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I'm truly a huge college tennis advocate. This is really what I'm promoting. Find a reason to play college tennis, not excuses not to play college tennis. Aside from dedicating oneself to the singular pursuit of academic excellence, there's a lot more reasons to play then excuses to not play.
     
  42. del

    del New User

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    Yes, Nicole Frenkel is someone to look out for, not just from NE, from USA. Though to set the record straight, she did not play tournaments with the new balls, was already playing up when the rules changed. More importantly, she was not entirely developed at the MAC, and giving credit where credit is due, her game was already what it is today when she went to the MAC to have Nick evaluate her after spending 6 years training with her first coach, the very capable Jim DiPanfilo. Obviously, Nick knew what potential she has and is helping develop her further.

     

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