Weaving One-ahead and Stringbed Stiffness

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by easterngrip, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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    I have strung the same racquet twice.
    First time weaving one cross string at each time and tensioning it right after weaving the string.
    Second time used the "one-ahead" technique while weaving the cross strings.
    First stringjob: 37 DT
    Second Stringjob: 40 DT
    The racquet is a Pure Storm 16X20 strung at 57 pounds,constant pull machine.
    The string used is Babolat Pro Hurricane Tour 1.25 mm
    What are your thoughts regarding this difference in DTs?
    Thanks!
     
    #1
  2. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    what kind of machine? clamps? etc?

    I've done the same and it resulted in no difference in DT or SBD.
     
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  3. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    That is a relatively large difference in DT. More give in the mains because they are not hindered by the 2nd pre-woven cross? Are you straightening the cross before applying tension? Are you using a lock out stringer or a constant pull? Could see this happening perhaps with a LO, but not with a CP. CP will pull until string is clamped off.
     
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  4. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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    The machine is a Babolat Sensor.
    I believe the difference in DTs has something to do with the fact that by not weaving one-ahead the tension head has to pull a hard-weave.
    When weaving the one-ahead the tension head pulls a soft-weave.
    In my opinion the already woven "one-ahead" string opens the path a bit and the tension head encounters less friction while pulling tension.
     
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  5. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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    Yes, I am straghtening the cross string after it has been tensioned.
    I do straight the strings in the very same way while stringing the first and the second racquet.
     
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  6. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    What you imply is that there are large frictional differences at the string intersections. Doesn't sound right since, if you move the cross to straighten out the bow from the pull, then the tension should come back to what is set on your machine. Oh well! Not doubting you, but very strange occurrence.
     
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  7. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Interesting.

    I have a star 4 and baiardo. Have done this test on both, and it has never resulted in a difference in either my ERT 300 or my Babolat RDC when reading the String Bed Deflection (SBD).

    Could it be the clamps were slipping?
     
    #7
  8. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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    What I think is that when weaving one ahead, the string row that is being tensioned encounter less friction against the main strings because the second row is kind of opening up the way.
    Try to nudge 18 feet of string from one side to the other side of the racquet using the one-ahead technique and try the same thing not using the one-ahead technique. Wich way you think will cause more friction nudging the 18 feet of string?
     
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  9. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I understand.

    However, I have done what you are describing to test if their are differences in readings. As I said, have never received a difference in the readings in either my Star 4 or Baiardo.
     
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  10. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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  11. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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    Thanks Drakulie for your replies.
    I will ask Irvin if he can be so kind to make a movie and put on youtube showing the calibrator's readings tensioning a cross string without having another cross string woven under and with a cross string having another one woven under it.
    Lets see the amount of tension that stays on the one-ahead method versus the regular method.
     
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  12. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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    If Irvin reads these postings he may be willing to test it on camera and show the calibrator's readings of one method over the other method.
    Thanks for your replies so far!
     
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  13. easterngrip

    easterngrip New User

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  14. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    If I were stringing my rackets I would try it for you. Drakulie (I think) said once stringing over or under the first main made a difference. I can't see that either. If there is an opposing string on either side of the string seems to me it would result is less tension on the string you're pulling but you are saying the opposite. Very strange.

    The result you're getting could be because of the stress you put on the strings not weaving one ahead but I can't explain it.
     
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  15. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    One explanation could be this. When you tension a string you must at the same time pre-stretch the string between the frame and the tensioner. This will be the section of string used for your next cross. All string resists change, when you tension it it will try not to stretch out and resist the pull (some more than others.) when tension is removed it will attempt to return to its original relaxed position.

    When you do not weave one ahead that pre-streched section usually will have more time to relax with nothing to prevent it from relaxing. Then when you pull tension the is less stretching because of the resistance on the mains strings resulting is lower tension.

    When you weave one ahead that pre-stretched section is immediately pulling into the position it will be tension in. The friction of the mains will tend to hold some of the pre-stretch in the string while weaving the next cross. Then when you tension it you are effectively pulling longer because you are pulling a stretched string.

    If you tension each cross in a racket for 5 seconds and another racket for 10 seconds the racket you hold tension on the string longer will have a higher DT and by weaving one ahead that may be what you are doing. But I would not have thought it would have made that much of a difference.

    IMO all customers rackets should be strung the same. If you pre weave on one do the same on the others. When tensioning mains try to tension each string for the same amount of time and likewise for crosses. Keep up at a steady pace.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
    #15
  16. willrcboy

    willrcboy New User

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    Humm, strange that the resulting DT should not be that radically different…not for if I string my clients or my racquets even with the same process. Mind you I also string mine with the babolat sensor too.
    I think one must consider several factors here:
    Is this a repeated results? ie, u have done this a few times and checked and still obtaining the same DT differences regarding the 2 stringing methods. It's no point if this really a one time event.
    The time taken for the racquets to be strung, are they similar? Considering that you clamp the strings with similar timing and fashion.
    Are the racquets strung and measured immediately, and the process repeated vice versa with DT measured and checked immediately. Or u could compare with 2 racquets at the same time and see a significant difference?
    Are the stringing method the same? Ie, one is 2 knots but one is 4?
    Tying knots methods the same? Or with the same consistency? Afterall loosing DT could have a lot to do with tension lost from knots, even with all methods being the same the inconsistent finishing of knots could be the Achilles heel for all sorts of issues.
    Of course I am not indicating any flaws in your stringing but just some ideas for thought here.
     
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  17. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Just a thought, I wonder if the power was low. Lower voltage could mean the tension was off. Not sure if the sensor will string at the same tension if the voltage goes up or down.
     
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  18. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I would first repeat the experiment to see if the same result was achieved. It may be impractical but it might be worth having someone else do the stringings and DT measurements the second time to better control for experimenter bias or expectancy effects. This is particularly true since drakulie has reported doing the same experiment with two different machines and not measuring any DT difference.
     
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  19. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Quick update.

    Been "experimenting" with this at work. Every time a client comes into the shop with two of the same frames, wants the same string, and same tension, I've been stringing each one the way the OP described.

    So far have 6 sets of racquets. All have come out with same ert.
     
    #19
  20. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Update:

    Today, I completed a pair of Steam 99s'.

    15 gauge Luxilon 4G @ 50lbs.

    Both came out with exact ERT (32).
     
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  21. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    Sorry to de-rail this thread, but a Steam 99s @ 50lbs of Lux 4G?!?!?! Doesn't that make it a trampoline? What's wierd is on the racket it recomends Lux 4G with a recomended tension range of 54-64lbs.
     
    #21
  22. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^Not really. 4G yields a stiff string bed, and the 15G magnifies it.

    I string my 99s with gut mains and poly crosses at 45lbs.
     
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  23. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Au contraire! I string my 99S's with all-Lux 4G at 47 mains and 44 crosses. I absolutely love the feel. It isn't a trampoline at all. It pockets unbelievably well, feels great around net, and still spins the ball like crazy. There is zero drawback to low tension on this frame.

    IMO, tension ranges are no longer valid. I've thought about a thread on this. Tension ranges were valid at one time when there were two types of string, gut and nylon which both had the same basic properties. Now with all the different string and gauges out there, tension is just a number and an ideal tension is strictly left to the player. I'm glad my regular hitting partner finally talked me into low tension. He strings his 18X20 at 45 on a Model H lockout.
     
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  24. Joonas

    Joonas Semi-Pro

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    This makes me wonder a little. I take what Darkulie is saying that there is no difference in pre weaving or not pre weaving the crosses.

    But then again John Elliot & co are stressing the importance of pulling each cross minimum 20 secs to overcome the friction. This applies for manual CP machine (Stringway in John's case).

    I have Stringway machine and have been playing with John's JET method and also traditional. My normal method of cross stringing is to pre weave next and hence to keep pull at least 20 sec. And I experience that my 24kg is giving usually higher DT than some other stringers 24kg.

    Now actual questions are:
    1. What impact the pulling time for crosses have? Or would the result be same if you pull 5 s. or 30 s.?
    2. Pulling time and its impact in mains?
    3. How much the possible difference is dependent on your stringing machine? (CP vs. Lockout)

    I also found difference in result when I was using two flying clamps instead of one when doing crosses. Normally I clamp with one. So after a clamp I pull tension -> keep it for appr. 20s. before removing the clamp -> then I release the clamp -> keep pull without clamp for few seconds -> clamp off -> release the tension.

    When I tried with two clamps (moving the "one before" always up) I got lower DT while all other things being equal. I thought of one possible reason could be the bending of string with flying clamps. When using only one clamp and after releasing the clamp the constant pull should pull out the slack from the grommet turns as well as the slack from straightening the cross strings. Does this thinking make sense?

    Are you guys normally pulling tension only against previous clamp? Or does it make sense to pull tension for some time after releasing the clamp? Or should one release the previous clamp immediately after pulling the tension?
     
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  25. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The longer you pull the more the stretch and the higher the DT.

    When using flying clamps the distance between the clamped strings is always constant. Seldom will the distance for the straight line path between the grommets be the same as the clamped distance so the strings are deformed when clamped with flying clamps. Removing the clamps when tensioning will allow the string to straighten out have have a higher DT.
     
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  26. Joonas

    Joonas Semi-Pro

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    Thanks Irvin, you confirmed what I was thinking. And for strings to start straightening takes some time so key to constant job is really to keep the routines and pulling times constant.
     
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