Wegner vs Mark Papas

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Pet, Oct 9, 2011.

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Wegner vs Papas

  1. Wegner

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  2. Papas

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  1. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    Wegner vs Mark

    Here are two good examples of tennis philosophy, totally opposite.

    For you, who is more efective, or it doesn´t matter only the person counts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
    #1
  2. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    i refer you to Oscar at the Fair
     
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  3. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The revolutionary tennis guy?
     
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  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Read his serving sections again now. Brilliant. As I long suspected, pronation is not the only story. After turning outwards, the hand later moves inwards also, otherwise the ball would go flying to the side instead of the front.
     
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  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The big difference is that all of Papa's stuff is free.

    The other difference is the detailed technical explanations and finer points of disagreement explained logically and without far-fetched analogies. No simple buzz words and oversimplification.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
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  6. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    Yes, Papas sound a lot more scientist, but its true that Federer, Nadal, Djockovic, etc hit like Wegner says.
     
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  7. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Ding, ding, ding!
     
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  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And they would have hit like that even if he never said anything, as they don't know who he is.
     
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  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I took a small tip from Papas this morning - look slightly north of horizon to the opposite court before beginning the ball toss on the serve. Played 1.5 hours of singles now, and a grand total of 1 double fault, and very decent serves overall. Really makes a difference. That is the kind of specific advice I like.
     
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  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Of course this is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with the OP.
     
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  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly,
    and it works well at all levels as well.
     
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  12. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    You and Mark Papas are a perfect fit. Perhaps he will invite you over to his house for lunch and some free lessons on his private court.
     
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  13. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    If I was ever going to be banned from this forum, it would be because of the poster called 'Playnice'
     
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  14. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    They also hit like Papas says: stepping into the ball, linear momentum, etc.
     
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  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Rarely if ever.
    When they step in it is usually to improve the contact point, but footwork is to control any forward momentum IMO, not produce it. They also usually lift to compensate to get hips to open and land in an open stance.
     
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  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Papas has put his stuff out there for free and you can take what you want. He doesn't start with some oversimplified nonsense for beginners and then twist everything to fit that viewpoint. Where he differs from others, he explains how they may also be right in some cases and actually includes pros whose motions do not support his point of view. What you see is what you get. You don't have to spend more money in order to get more "secrets" or buy into some philosophical mumbo-jumbo.
     
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  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    They use both linear and rotational power, and step into the ball when appropriate or depending on their playing style and ability, or play off their back foot some other times. What they don't do is to follow some beginner-level simplified slogan to prove a point and to appear different.
     
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  18. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I had not heard of Papas before this, and went to the revolution site. Basically good stuff but too complicated for me. I like Wegner's simplicity more.

    Disagree with Papas on wrist movement. He talks about wrist pronation and implies there is movement during the contact zone. He then refers to a video with Fed hitting several forehands. The 1st 2-3 FHs show no wrist movement or extremely small wrist movement 6-12 inches before contact and 6-12 inches after contact. I like what Fuzzy Yellow Balls teaches. The wrist lays back as you start your forward swing and then the wrist is PASSIVE thru the contact zone. Pronation is after the ball is long gone at the end of you swing where you roll-over into a WW follow-thru.

    Papas also had lots of "anti-rotation" verbage in his FH lesson impling hip and shoulder rotation could be over done. My experience is most rec players don't use enough hip and shoulder rotation. Given time, most pros end up with hitting shoulder rotated all the way thru where it is closest to net and chest points slightly toward L fence for R handed forehand. I think a smooth accelerating rotation is critical for power and consistency.

    Vote for Wegner. Papas hurts my head with complexity and seems a bit off on a few key things. But, some probably respond well to Papas' scientific theory type approach. But, beware the active wrist as it is a killer for most of us in my experience and observations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
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  19. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    Papas. Somewhat of a long read sometimes, but still good.
     
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  20. Rubens

    Rubens Semi-Pro

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    I have found Papas to be very helpful in terms of how to position your feet relatively to the incoming ball, which is a key element of the game. Yet, at the same time, I disagree with his idea of STEPPING forward as a power component of the shot.
     
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  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Which section of the site is it in? Or is it scattered all over?
     
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  22. Rubens

    Rubens Semi-Pro

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  23. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Here is an example which shows Papas understands the reality of the game instead of claiming that there is enough time, which holds only for fed beginner rallies with the ball in the comfort zone:

    This extra distance costs you time, of which there's never enough

    Anyone who has played with good players knows how they can shorten the time and cause your strokes to break.

    I also notice he seems to prefer closed stance to open stance, which is not what the pros do on the forehand side these days. But they do perform the footwork of stepping in with the left foot (unless they are hitting late on deep blocks and are parallel to the baseline). The difference is that as they hit, they turn around into the shot with the right foot, instead of that foot staying put behind during contact. Step in, and rotate into the shot, instead of hitting with the right foot locked behind you. That is what I have been doing for years. Hardly anyone hits strict closed stance any more on the forehand side. I even use a semi-open-stance one-handed BH, which is a rare shot to see in the clubs and one I consider my invention.
     
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  24. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Oh yes, this website. I love it.

    The tip about the serve helped me out a lot. Basically saying that you are waving towards the side fence to start the racquet drop. That little tip helped me a lot with some things.
     
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  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Probably reinforces shoulder rotation
     
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  26. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    They step to the left on forehands.
     
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  27. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    Yes, I think he has very good tips, but for example, Wegner says that pros hit the serve with a sudden change of raquet angle on impact, creating spin and control, Papas ignore this important tip.
     
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  28. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I don't compare coaches or care that much. I just go with what helps my game.
     
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  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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  30. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    Yes, could be an other option, a mix of the two, who knows...
     
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  31. Rubens

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    I do make small quick adjustment steps before contact, but I don't consciously count 4 steps, nor do I try to make them all linearly towards the target.. Still, adjustment steps are crucial.

    I think his general idea is to start with larger steps to quickly get to the vicinity of the target area, then follow with small adjustment steps before contact. However, I think he gets overanalytical and rigid when he thinks of it as precisely 4 steps consisting of right-left-right-left, on a straight line.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
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  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Is it the pronation that he is referring to? If so, it is obvious that an edge-on swing with a continental grip will require a certain degree of racquet angle change before impact. Whether this qualifies as a "sudden change of racquet angle" or if this is any new insight beyond the well-known pronation, or just plain wrong, I don't know.
     
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  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes that is what I thought. Larger steps followed by smaller adjustment steps is done by all pros and shows the importance of footwork training. But it need not be as rigid as Papas illustrates.

    At least he doesn't claim that footwork comes naturally like the way a child learns to walk.
     
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  34. Rui

    Rui Semi-Pro

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    So, I'm trying to figure out Pappas' Recovery Step advice. In his diagram (2nd link of the three provided), he advises not to take one because it takes to long to perform. Then in the next paragraph he touts the benefits of a recovery step.
     
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  35. Rubens

    Rubens Semi-Pro

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    I think he means that you may need to make a recovery step in some cases, but never do it DURING contact.
     
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  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes, that is what I gathered too.
     
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  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Would make more sense if you said "played with good players that are way better than you", because that is the main time it would feel that way you mention to a player. Sure there are times in an evenly matched game where you feel pressed for time, but if it is a real big issue, you are likely way over your head. No need for coaches to focus on training for that situation so much.
    Saying there is never enough time is way overstated and only adds to the advantage if it ever existed at all.
    Very good competitors don't win and compete well by feeling overwhelmed like that. Why you want to put that out in the universe Ricky Bobby!
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
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  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Found it interesting to read his background. Like Oscar, he hails from South America. Like Oscar, he mostly roamed around as an amateur - maybe the equivalent of a journeyman is today's terms. Like Oscar, he stopped playing after a leg injury. Like Oscar, he claims to have unique revolutionary viewpoints.

    Remarkable coincidence, no?
     
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  39. Rui

    Rui Semi-Pro

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    Papas also advocates keeping your feet still during the swing to eliminate body movement that may hinder your swing. I don't think this jives with stepping into the ball for more power.
     
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  40. Rubens

    Rubens Semi-Pro

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    Well, his point is that the power comes mainly from the forward momentum that has been created before the contact, by taking those 4 forward steps. Btw, the forward momentum thing is where I tend to disagree with his view. Specifically, I disagree about the forward momentum being a huge power factor, (except maybe in running forehands). I think rotation plays a bigger role in generating power. I do agree with transferring weight from right to left foot for a fh (and left foot to right for a bh). It's just that I see the weight transfer as part of a rotational process, as opposed to a linear one. It's hard to explain in words, sorry.
     
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  41. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    Yes and no, the pronation that you says occur before impact naturally, if t you don´t wanna hit with the edge of course jeje. But the Wegner pronation´s happens on impact. When you feel the ball, turn your raquet to the right to give spin. Federer is a good example.
     
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  42. Rui

    Rui Semi-Pro

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    Yeah, I still don't get how you can take four steps and stop and not yank back your forward momentum. I would advise hitting on one leg, open or closed stance. Specifically to allow your momentum thru your shot.
     
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  43. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    exactly what i am trying to say. there is no algo.
     
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  44. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    No, this is a pretty good explanation in my opinion. Yeah, Papas places WAY too much importance on forward, linear momentum.
     
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  45. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    most of others place way too much emphasis on angular momentum. with modern defensive game with top spin, directional and depth control is not that great a critical factor. so i guess people do not mind loss of control from relying too much on rotation. and hence the general acceptance of angular momentum as a dominant component.
     
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  46. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Actually pretty well stated.
     
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  47. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    I guess I don't understand your point, and specifically how angular momentum causes loss of control. Actually the opposite is true. When the directive, or emphasis, is placed on stepping in, (forward linear momentum) control is compromised, as are recovery loops, and the ability to handle balls high in the strike zone.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2011
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  48. OTMPut

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    if you rotate around an axis to send something forward with an intent to place it within a pretty narrow confine, there is less control.
     
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  49. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Actually, control is more often times compromised when there is an emphasis on stepping into every shot. It can, and often times does, impede the ability to produce the racquet at impact, decrease spin/angular output, slow down recovery loops, and decrease the ability to handle high balls. Point is, forward linear momentum is so overstated in importance. The angular component, is what produces racquet head speed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2011
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  50. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    it perhaps produces higher racquet head speed; handles high balls better. no dispute there. control is the issue.
    modern game is more about %s and margins, so i guess this is more favoured now.

    my point is less rotation => more control.
    stepping in, of course puts more premium on timing (footwork, "eye").
    so you could argue that it is difficult to execute. but less control is not an intrinsic feature.
     
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