What about the wind makes Djokovic's game go really south?

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by RCizzle65, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. RCizzle65

    RCizzle65 Hall of Fame

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    We saw it against Ferrer, and we saw it in the first couple of sets against Murray. It has to be all mental, right? I mean, he has great footwork, and while he does play somewhat aggressively, he plays with lots of margin as well, so it's not like his shots should be flying everywhere. I think he set his feet too early and not able to adjust for the incoming balls, so I guess it kind of messes up his footwork, but he just seemed like he wasn't interested in either match.
     
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  2. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Wasn't interested in defending his USO title? I don't think so.
     
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  3. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic doesn't like to look bad. The wind makes him look bad. It's a downward spiral...
     
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  4. clayman2000

    clayman2000 Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic redirects the ball better than anyone in mens tennis. Its the reason why hes about the only guy to get Rafa to run out of gas during a match.

    Wind gets in the way of that.

    Also traditionally (outside of God-mode 2011 Djoker) he has been a guy who can go through patches of lots of UE's and that also worsens during wind.
     
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  5. PCXL-Fan

    PCXL-Fan Hall of Fame

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    Smaller cranial size.

    Less room to develop a large motor and optical cortex needed to quickly process the multiple variables needed to play optimally in the wind.

    The larger the rear of the head is the more adept the subject is at tasks relating to hand eye coordination full body coordination and calculating movement of the ball because of wind.
     
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  6. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    Like what I posted in another thread: it's a mind-f**k for him. He doesn't like it and when your brian is out of order, everything else tends to go south as well.
     
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  7. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    Although Djokovic is an excellent mover and gets in perfect position to strike the ball, he has difficulty in the wind because his feet are planted too soon. He does not adjust for the last second movement of the ball due to the wind because he is set too soon. As a result he is off balance when he strikes the ball. He needs to keep his feet moving with those tiny adjustment steps until the last second.
     
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  8. Breaker

    Breaker Legend

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    This could also relate to his overheads..along with the gumby arms of course. Federer, Nadal, Agassi, Hewitt, Ferrer, even Murray do seem to use those adjustment steps a lot more and are/were far less affected by the wind. Djoke's almost reliant on his ridiculous flexibility when it comes to difficult shots rather than conventional footwork though still he's one of the best movers ever, maybe just works against him in wind and even grass a bit where the footing isn't as secure.
     
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  9. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    Great point.

    Do you think Nole's was having issues with shoe grip. He seemed to be falling a lot. Or is that also a result of a low IQ due to smaller brain?
     
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  10. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    It was hilarious, he looked like a giraffe on ice skates trying to hit the ball sometimes, not sure why he was so off, I guess they don't allow wind in Serbia.
     
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  11. underground

    underground Legend

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    LOLs at the pun, neither Berdych nor Djoker could serve properly from the Southern end.
     
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  12. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Hall of Fame

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    I just played 2 tough sets in some wicked wind and I started to feel Novak's problems acutely.

    For example, what should have been crosscourt flattened out forehand winners got pushed wide and stretched against forward momentum shots (change of direction stretch) almost made me fall over because the wind would give an unexpected push. Those are two things that are central to Novak's game.... keeping impossible balance and painting the lines.

    That and the fact that the player with the most versatile slice backhand has an advantage hitting into the wind was also a factor. Murray does have more variety of spins than Novak.

    Overall it is a lot more work and if you are fussy about precision.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
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  13. RCizzle65

    RCizzle65 Hall of Fame

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    Did you watch him play? He definitely looked out of it when the wind was blowing.
     
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  14. pound cat

    pound cat G.O.A.T.

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    See the new thread above on the "Protestant wind" for further details about the wind.
     
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  15. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    The ("modern") court speeds usually favour Djokovic but in the wind against a resourceful opponent like Murray it really worked against him. He couldn't think of a way to end the rallies as Murray flat out refused to take chances. This led to some ridiculous shots that acted as approaches and his net play was exposed. The overheads remain a glaring weakness and Murray's level just didn't drop the way he (Djokovic) might have expected it to after the conclusion of the 4th set.
     
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  16. ramos77

    ramos77 Semi-Pro

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    A southerly breeze...
     
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  17. Bhagi Katbamna

    Bhagi Katbamna Hall of Fame

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    The problem is that he cannot go for the corners like he usually does.
     
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  18. Murrayfan31

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    The problem is Murray is a bad matchup for him. End of thread.
     
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  19. RCizzle65

    RCizzle65 Hall of Fame

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    A somewhat windy match against Haas in Miami, and he's hitting wayyyy too many unforced errors, it has to be more mental than his footwork or something...
     
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  20. bigserving

    bigserving Semi-Pro

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    Not too sure about matches in the past, but that was a pretty obvious tank job tonight against Haas.
     
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  21. PureTennis

    PureTennis Guest

    It wasn't very windy. But it was cold and the balls weren't bouncing high. Novak said so himself. You people and the wind...
     
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  22. pingu

    pingu Semi-Pro

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    Look like Hass handled the wind better tonight!
     
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  23. PureTennis

    PureTennis Guest

    This could apply to humans<dolphins in general.
     
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  24. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic is a rhythm player. It takes him longer to find his groove in the wind and sometimes he doesn't find it at all, like tonight. Couple that with the fact that Haas has an above average slice and was using it quite effectively means more trouble for Djokovic.
     
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  25. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    It wasn't the wind that made Djokovic's game go south, it was Haas's outstanding game that did it.
     
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  26. PCXL-Fan

    PCXL-Fan Hall of Fame

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    From a phrenological standpoint,

    Djokovic has a relatively slightly smaller head size than Murray, Ferrer, Nadal and Federer and thus a slightly smaller brain.

    This smaller brain has less space for the portion of the brain associated with wind conceptualization, assessing air pressure in ball, and humor.
     
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  27. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Djokovic can't handle the slice. See how much Tomic troubles him.
     
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  28. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    What "tank job"? Haas just played better and wouldn't allow Djokovic win points. That's what happens when you play against a better player - they dictate the points and don't allow you to.
     
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  29. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    ROFL.

    Yeah, and maybe it is because of a unique serbian cultural difference, or a psychological issue, or Djokovic might be lacking the gene for a protein that plays a big part in reflexes. :-?


    Seriously though, Djokovic is a guy who can track down 130 mph plus serves and hit them back with interest. He has such impressive control over his upper body that he can be fully stretched and still manage to use his torso to crush backhands back at his opponents.

    I think it is safe to say that Djokovic is not held back by his cranial size.
     
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  30. Magnetite

    Magnetite Professional

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    Haas played extremely well, and intelligently against Novak. He used is slice exceptionally well, and kept luring Novak into the net, where Novak is not comfortable. Haas served well, and did a good job of coming into the net himself, at critical moments, putting additinal pressure on Novak.

    Granted Novak wasn't at his best, but Haas really prevented him from getting into a good rythm as well.

    All credit goes to Haas for playing a great match .. It's nice to see players come out looking like they believe they can win against the top player in the world. Haas' experience helped him, in addition tothe fact that he's beaten Nivak before at least a couple if times.
     
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  31. Mikael

    Mikael Professional

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    Didn't see the match but Novak's relatively long windup on the FH (especially compared to Haas' super abbreviated takeback) could be a factor in the wind, surprised no one's brought it up yet.
     
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  32. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    Haas was just the better player on the day... if Novak can accept this, why can't you guys?
     
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  33. ditli04

    ditli04 Rookie

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    THIS!

    It's hilarious to smaller the value of some wins like Haas' tonight. I mean give him some credit, he handled the circumstances better played agressive and eventually won. It's just insane to say anyone of the top 4 tanks if he loses to a guy outside the, let's say top 8.
     
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  34. MonkeyBoy

    MonkeyBoy Professional

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    You can make an argument about his motives in Paris last year, but I see no reason why Djokovic would tank this.
     
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  35. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    Will People Now Finally Believe Me That Windray Blew His Way To Victory Solely As A Direct Consequence Of The Blustery Conditions?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
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  36. PhrygianDominant

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    again with the right post before I get a chance.

    EDIT:I was so happy for Haas I teared up a bit. True story.
     
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  37. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    No, it wasn’t. There was a moment there in the first set, and especially early in the second set, when I actually thought of tanking as a possible explanation because Djokovic was playing so horribly at that point, it didn’t seem real. But after that he started playing a lot better. Not great, but ok given the conditions. There was a distinct change and Djokovic never went back to the horrible level he displayed early. I thought Haas would fold once Djokovic evened the set. Never happened. He stayed cool and focused. The last 2 or 3 games were resolved on Haas level of play more than anything else. Haas played a great match, all credit to him. You must keep in mind that guys like Djokovic, Federer, Nadal, are what they are in great part becasue they are extremely ambitious and hate losing. They hate it to a point that most commont people have no understanding of. They may on rare occasions tank a set, or not try very hard if they fall far behind, as a strategic move. But you can never assume they tank a match in a Masters level tournament unless it seems very obvious, and unless no simpler explanation is available. In this case, it wasn't obvious at all, and the simpler explanation is that Haas actually played very, very well.
     
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  38. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Haas just simply handled the conditions better. Even Djokovic congratulated Haas for playing the perfect way in the conditions against him. You win, you lose, its part of the sport.

    What is important is how you deal with it.
     
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  39. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

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    no

    10noos
     
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  40. TheRed

    TheRed Professional

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    Djokovic needs rhythm and Haas + wind did not give it to him. Haas played brilliantly, coming to the net, staying back, looping a forehand, flattening it out, etc.
    A match like this makes me wonder. I'm definitely not one of those guys that think players from 20 years ago were better, or get into a which generation of players is better guy (I'm not a young guy), but it makes me wonder how players from the last generation, ones who were just as comfortable at the net (I don't mean serve and volleyers exactly), how would they do consistently against these top guys.
     
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  41. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Those players would do fine, I doubt full blown serve and volley would be a viable tactic today (because of slower conditions mostly) but all-court tennis (think say Becker or Sampras) always was and always will be very effective.

    "Game always evolves and today's players are stronger, faster, better bla bla bla" is just nonsense that media talking heads sell to their audience, many people like to feel that what they're witnessing right now is the greatest thing ever and media plays on that.
     
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  42. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    I agree. It happens. Even the best player loses occasionally. Djokovic has lost 2 matches in 4 tournaments to good players. Nobody plays their best game all the time and when the top guys lose, it is typically a combination of them having an off night and the other guy playing well. Such was the case last night. It is also true that the top guys still win most of the time even when they aren't playing their best...that is one of the things that makes them great, so last night was an excellent win for Tommy Haas.

    I also didn't think Djokovic tanked the match. I thought he was grinding out there trying to get back into the match. He fought tooth and nail on a couple of service games in the second set to stay within one break of Haas. If he was tanking, he would have let one or both of those games go, IMO.

    At this point, Haas' game isn't terribly different from Federer's in some ways, and Federer typically plays Djokovic tough. Not saying Haas is on Fed's level, but he has a lot of variety, OHBH, an excellent slice BH, etc. Many of the same tools Federer possesses that allows him to play Djokovic very tough. So, it shouldn't be a shock that when Haas is on and Djokovic is a little off, he could pull the upset.

    Let's not forget, this is the same guy who beat Roger in a grass court final a couple weeks before he hoisted his 7th Wimbledon trophy. He is capable of beating anyone.
     
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  43. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    Everyone believes, bar Batz and Crew.
     
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  44. Relinquis

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    hard not to be happy for him... such an emotional win. I'm sure it will rank highly for him personally.

    This is a good recent interview with him about his career and competition:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTz9tcXNYgk

    6 mins, but worth watching.
     
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  45. Ehh

    Ehh Banned

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    Quite the contrary, I'm beginning to feel that Djokovic struggles against guys with great variety, period - no matter the conditions. Federer, Murray, Haas, Tomic...etc... Those guys with great variety also tend to have more feel on the ball than him, and tend to be able to compensate for the wind and unnatural surfaces (such as grass) better than him as well.

    Djokovic is possibly the best machine-baseliner of all time (grappling with Nadal) - very steady from both wings, superb once in a good rhythm, but if you can jam a cog in the wheels, the train can fall off the tracks.
     
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  46. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    That match pointed out what a limited and illusory skill today's top players have. If there's a little wind or the ball bounces lower or the court is bit slick, they fall apart.
     
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  47. mightyrick

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    Yeah, I'm not too sure this one was due to wind or conditions. I've seen Djokovic play in wind before and have no trouble.

    That being said, I didn't see him adjusting for the wind either. Which is his mistake. The guy kept going for sideline shot after sideline shot. I don't care who you are, you just cannot do that. When you play in wind, you have to slow the ball down a little bit and aim a bit safer. He lacked a lot of the patience in this match that he displays in other matches.

    Haas on the other hand adjusted beautifully and played percentage tennis. He came to the net quite often to finish points instead of trying to do it from the baseline. He also served very well.

    I still don't think Haas is that great of a player. Certainly no better than Hewitt, Roddick, or Davydenko. But I thought he played very well in this match. I'm not sure what was in Djokovic's head tonight... but it wasn't tennis.
     
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  48. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    It was also colder last night, which makes for a lower bounce. Would definitely have benefitted Haas' BH slice.
     
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  49. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    Agree, although Djokovic did play kind of ok after the second game of the second set. But before that it was pretty awful. Doesn't take anything from Haas, who played very well most of the time.
    I laughed when reading some of the posts by the incredible bionic poster, BreakPoint, trying to convince everyone that Djokovic didn't really make any unforced errors last night..
     
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  50. Goosehead

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    haas just destroyed djokovic..that's that.
     
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