What do you think of Jo11yroger's Forehand take back?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Mansewerz, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    I have to agree with this.

    http://www.vimeo.com/2229116

    I first watched the video, and then read the rest of the thread, and my first impression was that it was sped up by at least, 5-7 or even 10%. The movement (your split steps seem to defy gravity) the people in the background (specially the guy in black/blue around 0:25, and many others). Even the adjustment mini-steps looks surprisingly short and fast.

    And mainly, the voices. I'm an audio engineer, I edit, crop, merge and stretch voices for a living, and lemme tell you, those voices do NOT sound natural. Everything sounds compressed, stretched. I may not have a good eye, but my ear is flawless.

    Again, just my personal opinion, and that's only for that lone vid that I've seen.
     
  2. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Yea, the slice is great for low balls.
     
  3. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Just quoting this for future reference.

    J
     
  4. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    Bookmark it if you want, Jo11y. This is not a personal attack, but a mere personal observation.

    Speed walking in here too: http://www.vimeo.com/2247712

    Even the racquet spinning in your hand was moving particularily fast in casual grip changes. Specially if we have a clean look at the shadows.

    And for the other guys, check the last attempt of half volley, look at the way he spins his racquet. With only ONE hand. unless you're Vilas or Laver with a massive forearm, you can't spin a racquet that fast without using the other hand for support.

    And again, even the wind sounds compressed.

    Maybe you didn't do it, Jolly. I'm not calling you dishonest or anything, but maybe the video rendering got a bit screwed up. It does look a tad sped up.
     
  5. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    Andres,
    I see no evidence of this video clip being speed up. You can download the original that jolly uploaded. Give your expertise a challenge.

    Mike
     
  6. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I was going to ask you if there was any way to show for certain that it wasn't sped up. But I decided to just laugh it off.

    I had enough trouble just cropping the darned FH clips to make them small enough to upload with my 30 day free trial of corel.

    J
     
  7. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I mean, if something is recorded at 30FPS, and in the second there are 30 frames when you watch, then how could you speed it up?

    Wouldn't you have to remove frames from the second?

    J
     
  8. TonLars

    TonLars Professional

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    So much drama here
    Took up my whole evening I guess
    I probably would have just played Warcraft 3 and done a workout
     
  9. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    Yes, you are correct in most cases but not all.
    There is most of the time. Unless it is done inside the camera which I do not think you can with the model you have.
    Here is an example of one I slowed down:

    http://www.vimeo.com/2241804

    It will show a slow frame rate.

    However this is real time even though the frame rate shows 60fps but that is fields not frames.
    http://www.vimeo.com/2122644
     
  10. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Fortunately I went to the gym before all of this.

    J
     
  11. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Me too. What'd you work on?
     
  12. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Cool, I hope you don't think I am being a pain asking all this crap about video.

    As far as the speeding up, I really don't care. I take the videos so I can get better, and I share them because people ask me to. If someone wants to think they are sped up, then good for them, and they are free to apologize if they change their mind.

    People will think whatever they will think, and I will still be the same person. So the point is really moot.

    J
     
  13. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Everything LOL.

    J
     
  14. Passion4Tennis

    Passion4Tennis Rookie

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    Jolly, what is your biggest problem in tournament matches? Do you find yourself attacking at the wrong moments?
     
  15. dwhiteside

    dwhiteside Semi-Pro

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    2.5 at best.
     
  16. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    As for the speed, I have seen comments about seeming to be sped up on other threads, too. Maybe there is some incompatibility between the vimeo (or youtube), the browser, and/or the computer. Possibly it is dropping frames?
     
  17. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Actually, a lot of the time I am too tentative, sometimes I lose focus. Poor shot selection has plagued me at times.

    Or I will just get lost for a little while, then snap out of it.

    I am just gonna play a ton of tourneys in 09, and hopefully it will become more routine, so I can look at it as just another match, and just play every point one at a time. And if I lose, it is no biggie, because I am playing another one in 2 weeks.

    I just love playing, and I don't want to do anything to jeapordize that. I am having way too much fun playing this game, and I am getting better by the week, so it isn't the end of the world if I lose a match.

    It is just so cool to wake up on a saturday morning and be going somewhere to play a tournament.

    I have done that staring at the ceiling until 5:30am when the alarm goes off because you can't sleep because you lost a match thing. And believe me when I tell you that is a place that I don't ever want to visit again.

    Right now I am working hard in practice, and having fun in matches.

    But I am getting more competitive with my outlook.

    The last couple of years it has been, like enjoy the day, have fun, work on this work on that. Lose, shake your opponent's hand and go home.

    Because I was so afraid of getting caught up in results and failing.

    I don't know how much you follow my other posts, but I am pretty OCD about most things, and right now, I couldn't handle being on a team and having to win. Because if I was on a team I would HAVE to win. I would be physically ill if I lost. Even now a lot of times people I see for coaching will call me and ask me to play matches against their juniors. And I would be so worried about not going into the match and making an ass of myself.

    Certainly I don't want to go through life with that la la la just have fun attitude, because I am a man, and an american besides. And I very much want to become a better player, the measure of which is winning. So I have been lately easing into being more and more competitive. And hopefully I can arrive at a point where I can fight with everything I have during the match, and then accept the outcome win or lose.

    But, yea. . . not yet. I am a long way off. I have gone for mental coaching, and while it helps, and gives you stuff to work on, ultimately it is a dragon you have to slay yourself.

    I still have trouble serving out sets. My hero (I know, 26 years old and have a hero, how lame) is Mariano Rivera, and I want so badly to be a lock down closer. But I will go through sets and be holding at love or 15, where the other guy couldn't sniff more than a point on my service games. And then comes time to serve it out, and I cough it up. I used to do it every time, now I only do it half the time. So, getting better, but still horrible.

    I also very frequently lose my very first service game of the match.

    Other times I will be lights out, and then one game my serve just packs its stuff up and goes home. And then just like magic it comes back the next game.

    Hmmm, I think I have covered most of it.

    Anyhow, I will keep you posted, and as I get better, hopefully I can share some of the stuff that worked for me, to help other people.

    J
     
  18. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Zoinks! What would you think if you saw the non sped up version?!?!

    J
     
  19. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    It looks the same speed when I watch from the original file on my computer, so I don't know.

    J
     
  20. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Andres, Jo11y has some wicked racquet head speed. There was no need to speed up any video.
     
  21. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Don't worry about it dude.

    And as soon as the thermometer reads 70F you tell that Bulgarian cat that The Jolly is comming to avenge your loss.

    J
     
  22. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    I know you're taking Andres' comments lightly, bro. I really wish I had the time and motivation to get my own revenge, but hey, kick his ass for me anyway.
     
  23. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    All that you are saying is that my word isn't good enough for you.

    And that is really all that matters.

    J
     
  24. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    Just a note everyone:

    The first time I watched the videos I too noticed some of the effects others had. Then I watched them a few more times. The funny effects went away. In the high speed clip, at first, it wasn't slo mo. It was regular speed with weirdiness (I hereby tm this word :)). This probably has to do with the hosting site, and I'm guessing, the feed rate they are able to send through their servers at any given time due to the demand at that time. Just a quick guess though.
     
  25. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    No problem, for the nominal fee of a slice and a coke, I will take on anyone.

    Even Raul the cheat.

    J
     
  26. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ya, all the vids look choppy the first time you watch. But if you re-watch them, they appear normal. I thought it was because my internet connection wasn't quite fast enough to stream them.

    J
     
  27. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    An assasin for hire? Cool! For the price of a Gatorade, Raul will be your umpire and hook your opponent every time. Your opponent will not hit a line that Raul does not call out and any shot you take that lands within 6 inches past any line will be called in. That's a bargain if you ask me.
     
  28. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Does Raul know how to speed up video?

    I could buy an 18 pack of Gatoraide and win Wimbledon.

    Alright boys and girls, I am off to bed.

    Long day of Man-Purse shopping ahead of me tomorrow.

    Hopefully by morning a few more of the 3.5 raters will have chimed in, and someone will have told me I need to bend my knees.

    All I ask is that anyone who feels the need to proclaim that they could kick my ass please either be within geographic range to actually play me, or else keep your opinion to yourself.

    Wow, I got roughed up pretty good for a thread that I didn't even start.

    Must have done something to deserve it.

    J
     
  29. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Sorry about that Jo11y!
     
  30. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Full body workouts are great. I did the same.


    Now time to sleep so it doesn't all go to waste!
     
  31. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Like what??? Disagreeing with you???

    I could say the same thing about you.>>> "wow, didn't realize you were like this". :roll:


    And I'll say it again>>> Unlike you, who are talking doo-doo>>> I've seen Val hit, and seen him wipe the floor with 5.0's.
     
  32. TonLars

    TonLars Professional

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    No, I dont care if you disagree with me. You have aggressively mis-quoted and mis-represented what Ive said several times.
     
  33. equinox

    equinox Hall of Fame

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    What are you doing with your body? I do see decent trunk rotation and little forward body momentum. A waste of energy. It's like you are spinning around in circles without going anywhere. Hmm looking at the slowmo video that's really obvious. Stop running away from the ball. You load up your body parts and then jump away from the ball. I'm happy that you watch the ball.

    Imho a little to casual with setup and movement to be a 5.0 level. I'm guessing he's one of those players who doesn't miss much in warmup, but once moved outside of his comfortable hitting zone, starts spraying shots.

    Looks very good at a first glance to non tennis players but better tournament players would know the truth.

    Btw nice juggling act, thought of joining the circus after your pro career ends. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  34. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    I'd like to jump in here. I am surprised that people arent talking about things like footwork and are concentrating on the wrong things, like how fast they think the ball is actually going, batspeed, overly concentrating on stroke production rather than footwork,and etc and etc. tennis is played from the feet up and is a running/movement sport more than a hitting sport...dont get the footwork right and there isnt much chance of doing well or even having the right strokes unless all balls are fed to you where you prefer them

    I didnt look at this latest bunch of Jolly's videos, but did look at some stuff he posted earlier.
    I would say that jolly <if he is on> could beat some 4.5's, but could also lose badly to them, and i would say his footwork is that of a 4.0. <less when hitting on the run>. there are also issues stroke productionwise, and i think some things need a total revamping. Also in the video i saw, Jolly lacked the ability to sustain a rally even in a controlled situation.

    I used to be a USTA rater and have logged a few thousand hours on court teaching
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2008
  35. samster

    samster Legend

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    You deserve it, friend. Let me know if you find some nice bags for the Samster.
     
  36. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Strokes

    Hope you don't mind if I put my 2 cents in. It's hard to judge your strokes from only a few secs in video but here I go. The forehand looks flat and a little late. Also it seems that you are fallin back instead of stepping into the shot. I would say that racquet is to heavy for you and should remove the lead weight and video tape your strokes and see if you are still late and it should ad some top spin. I can tell by watching your ball has some pop with all that weight behind it. It would also give your beat up wrist some help. I know you like to kill the ball with a flat hard shot but give it a shot.

    On your backhand you looked off balanced and your left arm isn't tucked into your body. It seems your arms start off to straight to me did you set your feet to far from the ball its hard to see on the video, also you are bring your racquet back as the ball is coming in which makes it harder to time. My friend taught me to set the racquet back as soon as you know your getting a backhand and then run and set up your feet to the ball and then swing the racquet. It just makes your backhand simple yo can do the same thing with your forehand if you are willing to give up the loop. I think it would work with you since you hit a hard flat ball. I would really have to hit with you for an hour and play 3 sets it give you good feedback. Don't worry too much how you look in your video I think everyone looks bad on video.
     
  37. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    I'd like to disagree. The video doesnt lie..it is an exact portrayal of what is going on altho it does limit certain perspectives..especially since most of the videos you see around here arent in pressure situations..they're just practice/warmup/ralley situations and in most of the videos i have seen, these people who are proclaimed as advanced players arent consistent enough to sustain a rally
     
  38. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Let me know when you are in town, and as stated before I will gladly hit with you.

    My wrist feels terrific, actually my whole body is in relatively good shape.

    Please hold off on those late hitting, and unable to generate topspin comments until after we play though. I have a sneaking suspicion that you will be surprised. ;)

    J
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2008
  39. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Freddy's a big guy so I'd give the speed advantage to Jo11y. It should be an interesting matchup. Sorry I couldn't play you Jo11y, but I know when I'm outgunned. Jo11y gave me good advice about staying closer to the right of the baseline than I was standing and not protecting the backhand side. I run around every backhand I can.
     
  40. Joe Average

    Joe Average Rookie

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    I'm going to weigh in on the opening question. There are inherent hazards in such a loopy forehand takeback. Sure ... there's inefficiency and preparation, timing and stuff. For a while, I had a long takeback. And when I was videotaped at Saddlebrook, last year, it was pointed out (much to my surprise) that my racquet face was open. How did this happen? I thought. My grip was firmly semi-western. Except when I was sweating, which I do in abundance. I figured it was a just a matter of being more vigilant and getting a tackier overgrip. But then it was pointed out (although NOT by the good folks at Saddlebrook), recently, that my loopy, throw-the-racquet takeback was causing the problem (of the open face). You see, if you don't turn your shoulders and trunk adequately, while you're doing the loopy stuff, you're going to leave the racquet face open. And as you get older ... as I'm assuming all of us are ... turning the shoulders doesn't get easier. This problem (of the open face) can be cured, however, by stuffing a ball in your armpit. This helps to connect the takeback to the trunk rotation.
     
  41. dr325i

    dr325i Legend

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    Obviously some nice tennis from Jolly, however, with all the previous talk and stuff I must admit I expected more from his game/hits...
    Nevertheless, looks good.
     
  42. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

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    I think the videos from behind you represent your hitting much better. You get an idea about pace and depth. The two videos facing you don't show a lot of quality.

    I assume you have a tripod right? I found this Kodak portable HD video recorder online and I think it's about time I posted some videos around here. I could use the verbal beat down.
     
  43. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ya, the vids from behind had the camera at eye level, the ones with only me in them were slightly lower.

    J
     
  44. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Hey Jo11y, don't care about all this NTRP crap everyone is arguing about, but anyway... I have a question...

    How do you break Luxilon in 2 hours? I'm not putting down your strokes but you don't appear to swing as hard as I imagined you did before seeing the video (I have a feeling the racquet is doing a lot of the work for you though, so...). Is the string breakage due to the sheer weight of the racquet with a high tension and 16x19 string pattern or what? I feel I'm missing something... :confused:

    EDIT: Still, those are some sheer bullets (freight trains for the opponent) that your hitting, especially off the forehand side...
     
  45. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Now Jolly, yeah, I realize you are taking a lot of heat here, but I wasn't aware that commentors had to be capable of 'kicking your a**' to say something. Someone may have something valid to say, because even those of us down at the lowly 3.5 level can see things with others that we don't necessarily notice (or fix) with ourselves.

    I haven't commented, mostly because I feel there are others here more experienced and suited to that, and not because I didn't 'see' anything when I looked at the videos. Doesn't mean that I think I can beat you...ha, not even close.

    I was under the impression that Mansewerz took the vids, since he posted them. Did you know he was going to post them Jolly?
     
  46. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    The recipe for breaking Lux is to hit heavy topspin rally balls consistently until it notches half way through, after that it can break any time, sometimes it hangs in there for a while, sometimes it goes right away. So then after it is notched half way all it takes in one big flat shot to snap it.

    On clay it is a different story as the clay gets in between the strings and it just gets eaten alive. You just demolish the strings in groundstroke drills in well under 2 hours.

    In the BH drill I was trying to hit slower because my partner was spraying balls as he was trying to re-groove his BH. You can see that he was still spraying them to the middle of the court where I had to hit forehands.

    The tension doesn't seem to make a difference, I have strung from 56-70 and they all break about the same. If anything the lower tensions break sooner because I have to hit more top to keep the ball in.

    J
     
  47. samster

    samster Legend

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    The slew of comments (some of them bizarre to say the least) from this thread are the reason why I would dare not post any videos of myself here at TTW. I am scared! Boo!
     
  48. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    So I can only assume that you hit more topspin than what is shown in the vids? Sorry, I was just curious, I hit a crap-ton of topspin on my groundstrokes when I'm on the baseline (I play a slightly different style or S&V... :twisted:) and I have to cut out my Topspin Cyberflash 17g... But the 18x20 pattern probably helps the durability...
     
  49. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Jo11y has a good deal of top to his groundstrokes. The clips are a little deceptive, but if you see him in person, you'll see that he definitely has some topspin there.
     
  50. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Ah ok, thanks. It was bothering me... :-?
     

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