What does Serena have to do in order to be the best ever

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by NadalAgassi, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    No it isnt. I am not saying the person who is considered the best is always Serena, but it is almost never the year end #1. Lets look over the last 15 years:

    1998- Davenport year end #1, Hingis best player and best record.
    1999- Hingis year end #1, Davenport best player and best record.
    2000- Hingis year end #1, Davenport year end #2, Venus year end #3. Venus though Worlds best player, Davenport second best, Hingis third best.
    2001- Davenport year end #1, Capriati year end #2, Hingis year end #3 but #1 ranked most of the year, Davenport year end #4. Venus though Worlds best player by far, Capriati second best by far, Serena probably third best, Davenport fourth best, Hingis about 9th best.
    2002- Serena year end #1, Serena best player
    2003- Henin year end #1, Clijsters year end #2, Serena year end #3. Serena clearly best player but the rankings were skewed by injury so ok.
    2004- Davenport year end #1, Henin year end #7. Henin years best player, Sharapova (who ended ranked #5 on computer) 2nd best player, Davenport about 7th best player.
    2005- Davenport year end #1, Clijsters years best player, Davenport again probably not even top 5.
    2006- Henin year end #1, Sharapova year end #2, Mauresmo year end #3. Mauresmo years best player and Henin second best.
    2007- Henin year end #1, Henin best player
    2008- Jankovic year end #1, Serena best player of year
    2009- Serena year end #1, Safina very close #2 and #1 ranked most of the year. Serena by FAR years best player, Venus or Kuznetsova 2nd and 3rd best, Kuznetsova 4th best, Safina something like 8th best.
    2010- Wozniacki year end #1, Clijsters best player of year (note if I was only looking at major wins and nothing else I would have said Serena).
    2011- Woziacki year end #1, Kvitova year end #2. Kvitova by FAR best player in the World for year 2011, Wozniacki about 5th or 6th best.

    So in 2 years the Worlds best player was year end #1, 3 if you add 2003 which was correct based on results atleast. Sometimes someone who is only about the 7th best player in the World is year end #1. WTA rankings = meaningless to determine greatness. Next.


    As for your question to who was the best player while Wozniacki was ranked #1 well sure as hell was never her, that is for sure. Most of 2010 it was Serena, late 2010 and early 2011 it was Clijsters, and by the end of 2011 it was clearly Kvitova even with her bad 2 month patch in the summer (most of Wozniacki's year was a bad patch, well for any top players standards other than her own meanial ones that is). Her 2011 year end #1 is the biggest joke in history, and no this doesnt even involve Serena since I concede Serena has no case whatsoever for the 2011 #1 ranking. Kvitova, who I am not even a fan of either btw, won more tournaments, won bigger tournaments in stronger fields, won a slam, won the WTA Championships, had better slam results, won tournaments on all surfaces, even had a better W-L % which proves the stupid consistency argument for Wozniacki is even BS. Wozniacki was not at all consistent in 2011, after April or so she was crap the rest of the year, losing early rounds to much lower ranked players at most events she entered. There is no better evidence of the ridiculousness of giving merit to WTA rankings than the year 2011.

    Now as for 2012 atleast one could make a case Azarenka deserves the #1 ranking based on consistent performance (unlike Fraudniacki in 2011), but as anyone with a brain knows even if she does perhaps deserve to be ranked #1, nobody considers her the Worlds best player, nobody considers her to have had the best or greatest year, nobody would rather her 2012 results than Serena's, and thus even if deserving of the #1 ranking she still proves the meanginless to the #1 ranking stat in womens tennis to whom should be considered better or greater in any scheme or context.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2012
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  2. Razoredge

    Razoredge Banned

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    How was Serena clearly the best player of 2003? Henin had the same number of slams and more overall titles, thus she takes the edge over Serena. Maybe Serena would've been able to get the no. 1 if not for injury but that's just a hypothetical, Henin clearly had the better year.

    Also Henin led their head-to-head that year 2-1.

    Definitely the best player of 2003, you're just way too biased man.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
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  3. monfed

    monfed Guest

    As much as I want Serena to be female GOAT she isn't. She's all power and no finesse unfortunately unlike Graf,Navratilova etc.
     
    #53
  4. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    2003 is a unique case. If you could read properly you would note I acknowledged Henin deserved the #1 ranking and probably had the best year in 2003 (well even that is argaubly with Serena winning 2 majors, Miami, and some other tournaments, while Henin won 2 majors and neither the WTA Championships or Miami) due to Serena being injured, so it wasnt the fault of the ranking system, and it wasnt the wrong person at #1, unlike all those other cases. However Serena until her injury which ended her career in July had been by far the dominant player of 2003, Henin had bested her on clay, but Serena was by far the queen everywhere else, and so nobody considered anyone but Serena the "best player" per say at the end of the year. Even at the U.S Open the commentators said repeatedly the 2 best players in the World Serena and Venus werent there, that was the consensus of everyone at the time.
     
    #54
  5. Razoredge

    Razoredge Banned

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    That was before Henin won the US Open that year and became the most dominant player from then on until 2008.

    Hindsight changes everything.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
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  6. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    To be honest, if she were the best ever she'd have done it while Henin was still playing and at her peak.
     
    #56
  7. Razoredge

    Razoredge Banned

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    ..............
    ......
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
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  8. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Henin and Serena never peaked at the same times so that would be impossible. However peak Serena would have no problems whatsoever with Henin on anything but a clay court.
     
    #58
  9. Razoredge

    Razoredge Banned

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    Just ignore my post lol.

    Anyways we'll see how Serena performs these upcoming years, every slam she doesn't win is a loss given the quality of competition (unless they raise their games (lol) or some newcomer comes along).
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
    #59
  10. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    You may be underrating the competition - we'll see how they play in 2013. Azarenka has improved a lot the last couple of years and may continue improving. Sharapova definitely improved last year and could possibly get to better form than ever in 2013. Kvitova has the capability to beat anyone, including Serena, when she is at her best and it isn't uncommmon for young players to have an off year right after an excellent year. There are new up-and-coming players each year. All of these players may significantly improve in 2013, making it a great year in women's tennis - of course, maybe they all fall apart. Right now, I'm thinking they all will improve.
     
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  11. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Well said.
     
    #61
  12. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    As far as i'm concerned, winning a 2nd French only matters if its calendar major #2 on her way to winning the Grand Slam, which would make her the GOAT. Anything less, and she's just moved up in a catagory she already occupies: one of the greatest players, but not THE greatest overall.
     
    #62
  13. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    ....because the smaller tournaments do not matter in to the grand scheme of a career worth having.


    It was not Wozniacki--that much was certain. Playing a ton of events to reach #1 is no recognized indicator of being the best. The majors are the sport's reason to be, not playing endless meaningless events, while failing miserably when--for a tennis professional--it counts most: at the majors. Safina, Jankovic and Wozniacki were never the best at anything, as they failed when it counted most, which is why the near-universal criticism of the three was and remains 100% justified.

    Serena did not need to play endless events in 2012 to be the recognized best. After Wimbledon, (nevermind Olympic gold and the history made there), and US Open, who occupying the #1 spot deserved the "nest" title more than Serena Williams?

    No one. She--alone--dominated every important event of the 2nd half of the year, which means two majors. Ranking is irrelevant.
     
    #63
  14. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    THUNDERVOLLEY is probably right to be recognized as the GOAT over the current GOAT Steffi Graf, Serena needs the Grand Slam in a Calendar year. However with a 2nd French and 20 slams she could move to 2nd place behind only Graf, and ahead of all of Navratilova, Evert, and Court IMO. Navratilova and Evert of course failed to win the Grand Slam as well, and while Court did manage the Grand Slam she also has a hugely inflated # of Australian Opens, and a relatively mediocre Wimbledon record considering she was supposed to be a grass court player.
     
    #64
  15. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I don't think Serena necessarily needs a Grand Slam in a year. If she gets more majors outright than Graf, by all means she's the GOAT. If she gets close (say 1-2) many will likely think her power game (which blows opponents off the court) would give trouble even to Graf and Serena could be recognized as the ultimate female player. Still though, she needs to start racking them up.
     
    #65
  16. PDJ

    PDJ Hall of Fame

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    The thought of Williams being the all time GOAT is scary for the exact reasons given above. Her tennis is so ugly. And whilst not a factor, her graceless attitude remains a turn-off for this tennis fan.
     
    #66
  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What´s her head to head vs Hingis?
     
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