what does the stat 'winner' mean?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by hlkimfung, Mar 26, 2004.

  1. hlkimfung

    hlkimfung Semi-Pro

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    I'm confused with services winner and ace. Does 'services winner' mean unreturnable serve? How about if the server throw in a slow pace serve, the returner give a whack on it but result in an error? Does that qualify to be a service winner or unforced error?


    by the way, winner general mean clean winner, where your opponenet didn't touch it, but how about a shot that's your opponent manage to get the racquet on the ball but can't make it?
     
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  2. gofederer

    gofederer Rookie

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    i'm not sure myself but guess winners are untouched shots. i don't remember seeing 'service winners' rather than 'aces' in stat categories though.
     
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  3. Cypo

    Cypo Rookie

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    Winners are shots that can't be returned. Only in serving is the distinction made between a player getting the racquet on them (service winner) or not (ace).

    It's sometime a fine line between a winner and an unforced error - I think it depends on the eye of the statistician.
     
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  4. gofederer

    gofederer Rookie

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    Cypo, i'm looking at the miami stats between blake and spadea... blakes' total poinst won = 117 winners including service = 39 spadea's unforced errors = 42... what do you think the 36 unaccounted for blake points are? (i'm not challenging you, just curious...)
     
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  5. chad shaver

    chad shaver Semi-Pro

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    Those would be "forced errors". These are not outright winners. The opponent is able to get his racquet on the ball, but cannot put the ball back into play. Hope that makes sense.

    Anybody have a better explanation?
     
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  6. gofederer

    gofederer Rookie

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    i was asking Cypo the question because she seemed to equate winners with the opponent's forced errors...
     
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  7. Jack Romeo

    Jack Romeo Professional

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    an ace is a serve that is untouched.

    a service winner is an tough serve that is unreturned. it's basically a serve that forces an error from the returner. but if a serve is coming in at 60 mph and dropping into the middle of the service box and the returner has set up to kill the ball but instead sends it over the baseline, the serve is not counted as a winner. instead, the returner is judged to have committed an unforced error.

    a winner is a shot in a rally that is not touched by the opponent.

    errors are either forced or unforced depending on the judgment of the statistician. if the opponent has hit a shot that is deemed easily or routinely returnable, but the player still misses his shot, then he has committed an unforced error. otherwise, the error is forced, meaning the opponent has hit a shot that is really difficult to return. but in match statistics, only unforced errors are counted.
     
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  8. gofederer

    gofederer Rookie

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    i concur with jack, so i still stick to my first thought... that winners in an official stats mean shots untouched by the opponent including service aces (excluding "service winners")
     
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  9. Cypo

    Cypo Rookie

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    I could be mistaken - it's happened before- but I'm pretty sure that it's still counted as a winner, even if the opponent touches it with their racquet (in a rally) provided the shot was judged unreturnable. Tomorrow I'll probably see a woman who call lines at ATP tournaments and ask her, maybe she knows. I think it's a real pity the forced errors are not counted in the stats (except as the missing points, but I doubt that all missing points are forced errors).

    Actually now I'm currious, who does the stats ?
     
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  10. Hal

    Hal Rookie

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    I agree with Cypo, I don't think a winner has to be untouched, it just has to be hit so well that it's deemed unreturnable.
     
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  11. SonicSpeed

    SonicSpeed Rookie

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    um...I don't think so. I think winners are totally untouched (not including serves..those are different). If it's touched..but deemed unreturnable, it's a forced error.
     
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  12. hlkimfung

    hlkimfung Semi-Pro

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    how about 'touch-out' shot, when player A hit a shot towards player B, player B touch the ball with the racquet, but not able to return them, and the ball fly out at the back of play B? Does that count as a 'forced error'?

    Also, does volley winner count as forehand and backhand winner? or it is in a seperate group? How about overhead?

    So, are ace, double fault, winners, forced errors and unforced error all mutually exclusive? And do these five stat item exhaust all the point in a match?
     
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  13. gofederer

    gofederer Rookie

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    you should first remeber in a typical official stats there are no categories like forehand winners or backhand winners... there are just winners (including service/aces) and unforced errors and total poinsts won that are relevant to your interest. so be it coming from forehand or backhand or serve or volley they are all just winners... and i still think winners are untouched shots including service aces, and the remaining points won consist of forced errors like you mentioned and unforced errors... so total points won means the aggregate of winners & forced errors & unforced errors ...
     
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  14. Matt Riordan

    Matt Riordan New User

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    The terms 'unforced error' and 'forced error' also needs to take into account the abilities of the individual player.

    As we've talked about these two recently in a couple of recent threads I'll use them as examples:

    Let's say a volley is hit to the duece court on Lendl's running forehand. It is very unlikely that he will not kill it, sending it for a clean winner, either up the line, cross-court or for a lob. You don't expect him to miss it because it's his big shot.

    Now let's say the same shot falls to Edberg. Assuming he gets to th ball as comfortably as Lendl did he's still got that perceived weakness on the forehand. You grimace as it he hits it - oh, he's dumped it into the net.

    Now had Lendl missed that you'd call it an unforced error. When Edberg misses it it would be classed as a forced error as he's he's having to go for more than he can consistently make on that side.

    Your thoughts..?
     
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  15. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    I agree, it depends on the player. A low volley missed by Agassi is a forced error; the same volley missed by Henman would be unforced.

    Ideally, "unforced errors" should be a measure of how well the player is playing on that given day - but that's not how it turns out. Certain matchups end up with more "unforced errors" than others - because that's how the strengths and weaknesses match up, and not because the players aren't playing as well.

    It's also not consistent from tournament to tournament. I remember that at the French Open, winners+unforced errors basically added up to total points.

    The statistics should always be taken with a grain of salt - you can't just compare them from player to player and match to match without taking into account all sorts of factors.
     
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  16. joebedford

    joebedford Rookie

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    One definition I heard somewhere (but didn't like)--if you succeed in hitting the ball forward, but your shot is bad, it's an unforced error. A forced error is where the ball ends up "behind" you.
     
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  17. Cypo

    Cypo Rookie

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    :oops: Sorry - I saw the woman I know, but it was at a tournament and I was only thinking about playing and I completely forgot to ask her about the definition of winners. I'll try to remember next time I see her.
     
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