What happened to Guga Kuerten?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by samprasvsfederer123, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    I disagree wholeheartedly with you NonP. Since I've returned I've yet to see WB make any valid point that was not coincidental to other agendas he pushes! ;-) Further I've seen a lot of incorrect analysis, and ignorance of tennis. I just wanted to see him actually spell this out.

    It certainly possible he believes this one though, he admits that Guga was extremely fluid, it's quite possible that this may trick the casual observer into thinking he was slower. However, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that this is much more likely a trollish excuse to push his regular agenda!

    Ironically, he's now conceded the primary point I made when I said he had the "movement" of Federer, I was referring primarily to his easy, light movement. However, his follow-up statements that Guga wasn't anywhere near comparable to Nadal and Fed begged to be revealed for what they are: ignorance. A three-time FO champ....and his movement wasn't even in their league! LOL!

    Of course, as I pointed out earlier, if we were to pretend it wasn't, whooo boy, does that make the rest of Guga's game monstrous. If Fed, Safin, Coria etc. were not able to expose this relative weakness....truly Kuerten must have been LEVELS above them in his groundstrokes!
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010
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  2. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    LOL! That was the basic discussion. Funny that you think it bears restating 3 times!

    Boy, Guga's groundstrokes must have extraordinarily superior to Federer's...and Safin's...and many others...considering his relative weakness in movement. If memory serves, beat prime Fed in straight sets on clay....beat Safin the last 4 times they played....and all this AFTER Kuerten's struggles with eventually career-ending injuries.

    Sorry WB, the farce is up. All the regulars know your game.
     
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  3. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    LOL, talk about pot vs. kettle. Yeah, you're the fair and flexible one. I sure remember you being open to a different POV on Agassi's return of serve. Gotcha.
     
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  4. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    Well, Data, I'm well aware of his agendas. I was rather referring to some of his more... reasonable posts, like when he noted on the "Greatest Serves" thread that it's hard to separate clutch from the serve, or something along that line. Of course he made this point to boost up Roddick, whose connection to his generation of players I'm sure I don't need to explain, but it was still a valid one, and one a few other posters made themselves.
     
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  5. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Heh, well of course I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with you, but again...coincidental to his agenda....when you're as blatantly biased as he is, even if he makes a valid point it is difficult to say whether he understands why it truly is, or if simply happens to be in-line with his agenda, along with the many invalid points he also makes...
     
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  6. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    Data, I think everything that needs to be said has been said. Let's leave it at that. :)
     
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  7. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Agreed! :)
     
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  8. hawk eye

    hawk eye Hall of Fame

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    I think he retired.
     
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  9. raging

    raging Professional

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    the silver surfer!

     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
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  10. samprasvsfederer123

    samprasvsfederer123 Banned

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    well ty for telling me much about him and his game.

    he did seem like a good hc player, his match with sampras at the erricsson open in 2000 looked spectacular.
     
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  11. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    3 french opens and a straight set beating of Fed on a bad hip.

    Kuerten was one of the big dogs on clay.
     
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  12. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Kuerten >>>> Federer on clay. End of story.
     
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  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Agreed. Clay was Kuerten's strongest surface by some way and it's Federer's weakest surface. If Kuerten could straight set Federer at the 2004 French Open, it makes you wonder what the prime Kuerten of 3-4 years earlier would have done in a French Open match with Federer.
     
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  14. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Kuerten was a streaky performer compared to say Nadal, and Federer has had much better days on clay than that one, so I am pretty sure Federer would have the odd win over even prime Kuerten on clay. However over the long haul Kuerten would have been superior to Federer on clay both in overall results and head to head both then and now. The French Open was where Kuerten really shone, so where Federer's hopes would be by far the least, especialy in a semi or final there. Even in the overall weakish clay court field of today Kuerten probably wouldnt make nearly every final like Federer, since he would be more prone to off days that led to bad losses, but unlike Federer on his great days on clay he would score some big trophies and direct final wins over Nadal, which Federer has not been able to do barring unforseen circumstances. If he were back then Federer would not be making every final of every big clay court event like he does now as the clay court field had many more contender then.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
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  15. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Agree with all that. Even during his peak at the 2001 French Open, Kuerten was 2 sets and a match point down against Michael Russell in the fourth round before coming out of it. Contrast that with the Kuerten who beat Ferrero in straight sets in the semi finals.

    Also, remember in April 2001 in Davis Cup when Lleyton Hewitt beat Kuerten in 3 straight sets on clay in Kuerten's hometown of Florianopolis? That was a combination of Hewitt playing great and Kuerten being off, although Hewitt just wouldn't let Kuerten get any momentum. That was one of Hewitt's best wins.
     
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  16. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Often it was almost like Kuerten needed a match like the Russell one to get going and then when he really got on a roll he was almost unstoppable.

    I was always surprised Hewitt wasnt a better clay courter than he was. I know he doesnt hit with that much spin which is part of it, but his grinding style and mentality and defensive ability should be well suited to clay.
     
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  17. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    yep. guga was better on clay. no doubt about it.

    but that wasnt the point...really was it?

    We can agree to disagree on the movement portion if you still feel kuerten was as good as federer in this regard.

    and your memory is correct, but you also forget that federer did beat kuerten on clay - bageled him in fact. But that doesnt count, since well kuerten was well past his prime and riddled with injuries. LOL.

    Could it be that federer had an off day at RG? As far as i can see federer was not really in his prime on clay in 2004. His prime for sure on other surfaces but i dont believe he started playing his best stuff on clay until 2005. Of course this is all a moot point because i believe kuerten was better than federer on clay. But that is not the discussion, is it?

    I'm not sure you quoting kurten's wins over federer and safin have to do with this discussion, but, maybe that's your style-To quote irrelevant facts.

    Most rational analysts would pick federer over kuerten when it comes to movement, but hey, maybe you have a unique perspective. That is after all we are on a messageboard - to discuss.
     
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  18. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    you are so smart.

    Thanks for reading the thread.

    i agree with you btw.
     
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  19. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    so many words to say so little.

    One thing i have already observed in your posts is that you have ego issues. You come across as extremely patronizing in your posts possibly because you are insecure about your tennis knowledge.

    Yeah, i feel federer is superior to kuerten when it comes to movement but that kuerten had the more balanced ground game from the ground. Movement is but one aspect of tennis - there are others. Kuerten more than made up for his relative lack of movement compared to federer through other means - most obviously his great bh.

    But hey if you want to embellish my words in a way that makes you sound so smart, go ahead. Just dont expect me to take you seriously when you cannot understand my POV.

    Federer is after all a very poor clay player. I mean what 5 slam semis - 4 finals - 1 win. How could he possibly be superior in one aspect of the game to the great Guga - i mean really. Losing to arguable one of the greatest clay players of all time is shameful, really. Kuerten beating stalwarts like corretja, norman, ferrero. Far superior to nadal who plays in this weak clay court era with only a federer who can barely take a set of him.

    See, i can do it too..its easy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
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  20. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    i was open to it. I might have disagreed with you, but that doesnt mean i didnt entertain or consider your argument.

    yep. you got me. I surrender.

    you won an internet fight. Hope it made your day. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
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  21. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    LOL. Yeah, saying you weren't interested in my "excuses" for the decline of Agassi's service return no doubt shows that you did consider my argument with an open mind. Nice spin there.
     
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  22. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    get bagelled?
     
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  23. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I don't know about that. Federer has only been bagelled once since June 1999.
     
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  24. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Guga ranks pretty high on clay.

    Clay-court GOATs
    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Lacoste
    8. Kuerten
    9. Laver
    10. Borotra
    11. Drobny
    12. Vilas
    13. Santana
    14. Bruguera
    15. Pietrangeli
    16. Federer
    17. Muster
    18. Courier
    19. von Cramm
    20. Emerson
     
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  25. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    no, i'm saying federer bagelled kuerten on clay in 2002 (not FO)
     
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  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Okay, and then Kuerten responded with a breadstick in that same match.
     
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  27. Gugafan

    Gugafan Hall of Fame

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    That match is totally insignificant of Kuertens level on clay. He was just returning from his first hip surgery at the time, and soon after got bounced by Albert Costa in straight sets at the FO. A player he totally owned 6-0 in H2H from 97-01.
     
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  28. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    That looks like a pretty good list. I agree that is about where Kuerten belongs. It is too bad he had those awful hip injuries as IMO he was capable of winning 5 or 6 French Opens. From 2002-2004 he probably would have won 2 of those 3, with Ferrero sneaking one in either 2002 or 2003, and may have even delayed Nadal's reign there one year longer depending how well he aged.

    I am surprised you dont have Laver a bit higher. Didnt he have a reasonable head to head with Rosewall on clay?

    You have Federer ranked about right too. Though I really dont think he is better than Muster and Courier on clay as far as peak play, but his peak play lasted alot longer than theirs did. At their best either would take Federer 7 or 8 times out of 10 on clay though IMO.
     
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  29. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Well Federer clearly wasnt anywhere near his prime level as far as early 2002 either. He would lose in the 1st round of 3 of his next 5 slams and the 4th round of the other 2. If you really wanted to figure which was further from their best around that time flip a coin. It would like trying to figure out who was more prime between Federer and Sampras at Wimbledon 2001, a pointless exercise which many have tried to do also. Of course only a fool would suggest a match like that proves Federer as superior to Kuerten on clay. However I think many who bring that match up bring it up as a rebuttal to the often cited example of a post prime Kuerten destroying a prime Federer at the 2004 French. While I am on of those who feels Kuerten is clearly superior to Federer on clay (not based on that match, but based on their careers and all the play I have seen from both on clay) I also still feel is an unfair single match example brought up to unfairly diminish Federer's clay court abilities by some people.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2010
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