What is 4.5?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Edburger, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    No, but a 4.5 can enter the US Open regional qualifying tournaments. If all their opponents get injured and default they have a chance.

    This kind of reminds me an extremely wealthy guy I play tennis with and he joking said he was going to enter into one of those tournaments and try and pay off all his opponents. I don't think he ever tried.
     
  2. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    I will pull a Nancy Kerrigan on all of my opponents one by one then play Richie in round 1 and get breadsticked.
     
  3. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

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    how would they do in 9.0 mixed nationals?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    So tired of all these 3.5s taking the courts all weekend. I spoak to the Philipino Davis Cup captain and he said the Korean Mens 3.5 Nationals team has all of Billie Jean King NTC Indoor clay courts booked tomorrow. Several of the top 3.5 Lebanese GOATs from Long Island were spraying GOAT juice at CityView tonight - epic doubles oldGOAT guy name Barry was GOATing hardcore. Dude was on fire with champions choice Cortex infused weaponry.
     
  5. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Against a rising doubles team or falling?
     
  6. hcb0804

    hcb0804 Hall of Fame

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    Fed doesn't have a strong enough backhand.....out in the semis.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  7. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I have no reason to doubt you. But you either only play with other high level rec-players or don't play with many rec-players if you claim it is "extremely" common.

    I mostly play on public courts in Southern California and see at least a few hundred different rec-players (I may be underestimating) each year. I can only count on my fingers the ones I've seen hitting over 100mph serves. The only guy I saw clearly serving over 120mph ended up being an ex-Division 1 player.

    I also tend to agree with you that among posters on TTW, there are probably a greater % of 4.5+ players than among the general tennis playing population. I think forums with self-selected populations tend to be that way.
     
  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Not so sure....
    While a 5.5 can certainly be classified a "rec" player......
    The SanPabloPark 4.0 team was out practicing last week, that's USTA Leaque4.0, not tournament 4.0. So, more than half played for their old colleges, either D-2 or 3's.
    I'd say, over 5 guys on that team can easily first serve well over 105. Of those guys, most were around 6'2" and over 190 lbs., the tallest was 6'5" and easy 210, a Brit.
    They are rec players, just like anyone not making money for a living by solely playing tennis.
    The 4.5 team has a couple guys who serve harder, but they all play better. And 4.5 is also rec player.
     
  9. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    The Brit would destroy all of these Talk Tennis clowns.

    6 5 210 is one helluva monster tennis player.

    4.0 GOAT.
     
  10. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    This is strictly my opinion since I've never clocked my or my opponents serves but I think people aren't breaking 100 all that frequently at 4.5. I would guess the only time I clear 100 mph on my own serve is when I hit flat serves and that isn't too often.
     
  11. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    The guys with 6 pack raquet bags and a bandana serve 100.

    The guys with Wilson shoes serve 75-85.
     
  12. hcb0804

    hcb0804 Hall of Fame

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    What do the guys with Converse shoes serve?
     
  13. Edburger

    Edburger Rookie

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    Burgers and fries.
     
  14. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Ding fries are done. Ding fries are done. Ding fries are done.
     
  15. SCRAP IRON

    SCRAP IRON Professional

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    Ah you are from Sweden- That's why your name is clever! The irony is that Edberg was at the net all the time and the great pioneer of Swedish tennis, Bjorn Borg was a pure baseliner...
     
  16. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    You're going to wait for someone to whack you in the knee? :-?
     
  17. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    It's obvious no one here can properly define a 4.5.

    End of thread.
     
  18. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    4.5 is the most difficult to define here in south FL.

    There is a hardline difference between a 4.0 and a 5.0 That can easily be observed.

    5.0’s are the really good former college and tournament players. The good 4.0’s are the athletic guys with some tennis skill. You can tell the 2 between the motion of the strokes, footwork, and serve motion.


    In reality, the 4.5 league becomes a mix of the 4.0’s that won a lot of matches and got bumped, and the old 5.0’s that don’t play often. From what I see, even though they’re rated 4.5, they’re still in the 4.0 camp and even on their best days they’re not going to beat the former 5.0 on a bad day.

    I guess the main point is that an adult recreational player working his way from 3.0 will most likely peak at 4.0 playing ability. A good 4.5 was someone who established at the age of 16-18.
     
  19. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    I agree with this. Most adults who pick up the game just don't have the time to devote to learning and developing like kids and college players do. If I didn't have a coach telling me to hit for hours and hours in college there is no way I would ever have gotten to where I am at now. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, sounds spot on from my observations.
     
  20. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that for every 100 players who self-rate at 3.0, 75% will eventually be computer rated as high as 3.5, 20% will make it as high as 4.0, and less than 5% will go to 4.5 or higher.
     
  21. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    seems reasonable. What would you consider an 'average' tennis player then. 3.0-3.5?
     
  22. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    For my city these are the number of players in each level:
    Code:
       
    Level     # Men    # Women         
    2.0         0         15
    2.5         6         70
    3.0        59        174
    3.5       142        247
    4.0       124        153
    4.5        28         10
    5.0         1          0
    
    Using those year end rating numbers, the average male player in my area is 3.65 and the average female is 3.36. However, their dynamic ratings are most likely below their year end numbers since for example a year-end 3.5 rating is given to players with a 3.01 to a 3.50 rating. At least I think that is the range, it could be 3.00 to 3.49 and to be honest I'm not sure but it really isn't that important.

    You could assume for purposes of discussion that the average DNTRP rating is 3.65 - .25 or 3.40 which is a pretty good 3.5 level player. That's what I'm going to submit as my answer anyway, feel free to pick it apart.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  23. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    are you setting the curve as the lone 5.0? :)
     
  24. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    It's somebody who plays almost as good as the worst player on any of the Men's 4.0 teams from Puerto Rico competing at Nationals.
     
  25. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    ^^^men's 3.0


    Sorry, you must have had a typo ;)
     
  26. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Ha ha. Good catch. By the way ... where on the USTA site did you get those digits that breaks down the number of players in each ntrp section?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  27. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    The range is 3.01 to 3.50.

    This is pretty consistent with what I came up with last year. See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-interesting-usta-league-stats.html. The largest group of folks is at 3.5, then 4.0, and 3.0.

    But also see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/10/interesting-usta-league-stats-histogram.html where the peak rating to the tenth is 3.2, although the midpoint of the peak group is around 3.4.
     
  28. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I wish. :)
     
  29. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Very interesting Kevin. As you say on that web page any differences are probably explained by your histogram showing data for both men and women and that it contains many more data points than the information from one area of around 400k people.
     
  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    That graph is pretty close, but because I might live in an outdoor activity oriented area, there are about double the number of 3.0's, and triple the number of tournament playing 5.0's and better. And adding UCBerkeley, that tilts the numbers slightly higher for 4.5 and above.
     
  31. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    That was me, not Bdarb. I actually cheated and got them from the tennisleaguestats website for 2013.

    You can run an advanced search on tennislink and get them as well. I did that and saved the output to a spreadsheet and computed a few totals. Here are the actual 2014 numbers for men in my city:

    Code:
    Male	level    #
            2.5	9
    	3	51
    	3.5	113
    	4	126
    	4.5	41
    	5	3
    The numbers aren't very different from what TLS showed, perhaps the most interesting difference is that 4.0s > 3.5s. I believe the perception here is that there were more bump ups than bump downs at the end of the year between those levels here which could explain that difference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  32. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Yep, there are certainly variances by section and area.

    See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/08/updated-interesting-usta-league-stats.html that shows levels by section (a sampling, not all sections included when I did it).

    You'll see that NorCal, SoCal, and Texas are sections that are have a higher percentage of players at the higher levels than most other sections.
     
  33. schmke

    schmke Professional

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  34. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Can the top 4.5 in the nation teach tennis to adults?
     
  35. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    the top 4.5 in the nation could teach tennis to jon mcenroe. Have you seen 4.5's play before:confused:
     
  36. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    That's Dali being Dali.

    I think Bdarb's on the right track here. The idea of a 4.5 coaching a pro isn't as wacky as it might sound. But the idea of a 4.5 coaching a pro isn't as wacky as it might sound. Ever hear of a guy named Nick Bolletierri? He never played beyond the 4.5 level himself, I've heard some folks say he played at the 4.0 level. He's a highly controversial figure for sure ... either credited as launching the careers of dozens of ATP pros, or he's a guy who rode a gravy train on the backs of his highly talented pupils. But you gotta give the guy his props. Seems to know the game pretty well. For several decades, some of the best players in the world have sought his advice, coaching, and mentoring.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  37. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I love dali
     
  38. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    lmao.


    I was being sarcastic but frankly his point is hard to argue with???:shock::shock::shock:
     
  39. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    How long was Bill Belichick's professional football playing career?

    Yes, I know he's just stirring the pot but it is an interesting question.
     
  40. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    I got invited to GOATify a mens 4.5 Manhattan team today but I didn't renew my USTA GOAT membership.
     
  41. Chopin

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    Is Federer still 4.5 at his age?? I think we need to get the USTA involved...
     
  42. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    What's Edberg's rating these days?
     
  43. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Edburg would crush most 4.5s in the Eastern region. I've seen him playing with Courier at Randall's Island and he is rising 5.5 GOATworthy.
     
  44. Edburger

    Edburger Rookie

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    You cannot rate God.
     
  45. Bdarb

    Bdarb Hall of Fame

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    Who would win in a set, edburg or god??

    Trick question...;)
     
  46. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Gold Star Post.
     
  47. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    In that video where a 4.5 player plays a female pro. I actually think that guy's level is a great representation of 4.5.
     
  48. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Can Date Krum beat the top 4.5 in the world?
     
  49. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Which world?
     
  50. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    If we *don't* include 4.5 self rates I think its likely.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014

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