What is a bad match up?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Towser83, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Ok a lot of people differ in opinions about a bad match up, recently we've seen two possible examples- Federer vs Nadal and Nadal vs Djokovic.

    Personally for me what indicates the bad matchup element in the Federer vs nadal one is the contrast between the H2H and the overall playing level and achievements. Basically if you are much better against one player than you are generally in the game, or if you beat a guy regulary but fall short of that player generally, it's a sign of a bad match up.

    To indicate this, Nadal was beating Federer on hardcourt right off the bat and never slipped more than a single match behind (Nadal fans will also point to a winning outdoor hard record although the sporadic nature of thse meetings and lack of any on courts like Cinci, Us Open make it still somewhat inconclusive for me) yet it took him a further 5 years to win a hardcourt slam while Federer was racking them up. Likewise Federer was winning many hardcourt masters and other titles while Nadal only picked up a few. So there is no question Federer was a much better HC player but struggled to beat Nadal. That is a match up issue.

    Davydenko is a matchup issue for Nadal - he has a 6-1 winning record on hardcourt against him despite achieving far less than rafa on that surface. Equally, for a while Roddick seemed a bad matchup for Djokovic (Mardy Fish seems like a bad matchup for Murray) but I don't think Djokovic is a bad matchup for Nadal.

    On hardcourt, Novak is superior in the H2H but also in overall titles and ability on the surface. The only place you could have a point is on clay where he beat Nadal twice last year despite not having performed as well as Nadal on clay over the years. BUT - he never beat him in those previous years. He only beat him last year when overall he WAS the best clay player in terms of performance, and only lost to an inspired Federer, not some journeyman. If he beat Nadal twice and then lost twice on clay to average players then I would think he might be a bad matchup for Nadal on clay, but in truth last year he was just better than everyone 90% of the time on any surface. It wasn't like the victories against Nadal were contrasted by losses all over the place to everyone else (not til post US Open anyway, and he didn't play Nadal post US Open)
     
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  2. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    with the Djokovic-Nadal question, I would say maybe that Djokovic was unrealized potential, IE that the h2h before he really broke into playing like a champion and having the tools necessary to maintain it could be a flawed way to look at their matches.

    Only time will tell with this particular rivalry, but even Nadal has acknowledged that Djokovic is a better player than he, and it could partially be explained that Nadal owned the H2H because Djokovic didn't actually have his game at maximum potential.

    Just an opinion here, but thought I'd weigh in.
     
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  3. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Good question, Towser. A difficult one to rigidly define.

    To me, a bad match-up is one that rises between two players when one naturally puts the other at a disadvantage when both are playing their natural games.

    Let's take the most famous match-up in tennis, for example: Federer and Nadal.

    Before Nadal, not one player could exploit the Federer backhand. In fact, if it wasn't for Nadal, I doubt any other player would have found the weakness in his backhand. But one existed: the high, spinny ball.

    Now this is magnified in that Nadal is left-handed, throwing his high forehand naturally to Federer's backhand. This isn't some strategy Nadal uses by choice, it's what he does as dictated by his style of play. He does it to everyone. But for Federer, this presents a problem because he cannot deal with this over the course of a long match. Nadal didn't have to change any facet of his game to beat Federer. But Federer has had to change his tactics against Nadal to beat him, because he is on the opposite end of the match-up.

    Again, I just think it's something between two players where one simply has the upper-hand from the very first match.

    This is my take on it.
     
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  4. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Nadal is a bad matchup for Federer. This is obvious. Djoker is not a bad matchup for Nadal, he's just better.
     
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  5. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Websters TW dictionary:

    bad matchup

    excuse given for every time Nadal beats Federer


    .
     
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  6. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Exactly how is a bad match-up an excuse?
     
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  7. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Do you hear any other player on the "ATP" tour say they lost to Nadal because it was a bad matchup ?

    The entire tour can say that because Nadal has beaten just about everyone .
     
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  8. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    A bad match up means that you are not in their league, he was a 5.0 you were a 3.5 = bad match up.

    Federer is not losing to some random guy on the tour, he is losing to one of the most dominate players in the "Open Era" of tennis.
     
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  9. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    The entire tour doesn't have a bad match-up against Nadal. He's simply better.
     
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  10. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Exactly ....against the rest of the tour Nadal is just better but against Federer its a "bad match up".
     
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  11. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Yeah but federer was losing to Nadal on hardcourt when Nadal was 17 and doing virtually nothing on that surface. That indicates to me that he had the game to trouble the best hardcourt player of the time, but not the game to win HC slams or dominate HC. That to me indicates a bad match up. Otherwise how comes he gave Federer such problems on HC when he couldn't even make a slam semi on hard til 2008? His performance vs Federer was much better on HC compared to his general level on that surface.

    It's like Davydenko beating Nadal on HC nearly every time they meet but unable to make a slam final.

    On clay he is a better player, but on HC he has not achieved anywhere near what Federer has, yet still at worst holds his own with Federer in the H2H

    Btw,

    good points flashflare, Cup8489 and DFTW
     
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  12. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Then tell me how Nadal is better than Federer if he has achieved far less in his career.

    Nadal has gotten the better of Federer since the beginning. Why couldn't he do it against the rest of the field at age 17 then?
     
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  13. billnepill

    billnepill Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
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  14. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Quality vs quantity .

    You can take four wimbledons away for Roddick.

    Philopusis , baghdatis,....

    The funniest one I saw was against grandpa Agassi.

    He actually was barely playing on two legs. The guy was limping and he was shot up with cortisone.

    Look I've said enough . I'm going to bow out of this before I get castrated .

    I'm not taking anymore bullets
     
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  15. jones101

    jones101 Hall of Fame

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    I've never heard Federer once say it was a bad matchup, just people on these boards, it is though a bad matchup for him. Most 1HBH Nadal matches up well with as his FH is uncontrollable for a lot of them. In fact Nadal is a bad matchup for most of them expect maybe Wawrinka and Almagro, as they seem to be able to cope with high topspin balls with pace on their BH.

    A matchup issue doesn't always have to be about strokes.

    E.g - Serena was a bad matchup for Davenport because she moved better than her. Lindsey could serve/return just as well, hit and direct the ball with just as much pace, arguably volley better, and compete just as hard. She often hit the ball much cleaner than her too and could outplay her for long periods, but no matter how well she played, once Serena was able track down her balls and move Lindsay around, Lindsay was toast.

    Lindsay often played the 'better, cleaner tennis of the two', but Serena's superior movement, coupled with Lindsay's limitations, often resulted in the W for Serena. Just another example of a matchup issue.
     
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  16. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    You brought it on yourself. You started the debate.

    You can undermine Federer's slams if you want, I don't care. At the end of the day Federer has sixteen and Nadal has ten. Federer has numerous other records which Nadal doesn't have and probably will never reach.

    That's all that matters.
     
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  17. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Do you want me to bump the H2H thread so that you can continue this never ending story in that thread? :)
     
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  18. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Actually the old man in your picture is Andre Agassi after losing to fed at the AO.....just kidding ....lol. Last one I swear. I couldn't help myself .
     
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  19. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    No need, my friend. All I'm saying is if Nadal is truly better than Federer, he'll end his career with more accomplishments than Federer. As of right now, we can't say that.
     
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  20. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting post. Good read!
     
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  21. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Just a joke, we are here to have many of the same continuing conversations and debates for sure. This is another argument with two sides, one considers the whole field, while the other considers the man-man.
     
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  22. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Quoted for truth!
     
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  23. billnepill

    billnepill Hall of Fame

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    lol

    this was funny I admit
     
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  24. celoft

    celoft Guest

    This.

    Like Murray is better than Simon.
     
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  25. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    A bad match-up is when the head-to-head between two players is quite different to what you would expect seeing their global achievements.

    Examples:

    Kafelnikov-Berasategui 0-5 (Yevgeny did not win a single set IIRC).

    Courier-Dosedel 1-4

    Federer-Canas 3-3

    Safin-Santoro 2-7

    Sampras-Krajicek 4-6

    Kafelnikov-Rosset 5-10

    Wilander-Mecir 4-7

    Sampras-Ferreira 7-6

    Bruguera-Muster 3-12 (Muster won the last 9 matches)

    Wilander-Chesnokov 3-3 ( The Russian defeating Wilander two times in RG, in '86 and '89, the only two times Wilander did not get to SF of RG in all the 80s).

    Federer-Nadal 9-18 (specially the 1-5 on hard courts outdoor).
     
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  26. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    Those of you who have Virtua Tennis 4 can understand why Safin struggled with Santoro.

    If you play VT4 in tour mode for men, there is a player there whose entire game is junk, garbage and trickery.

    Quick serves, underhanded serves, ridiculous slice on every shot, drop shots from no where and then has the nerve to be approaching net with a very good serve that pulls you off the court.

    First few times I played that guy he drove me nuts, lmao. I feel for Safin.
    He was like a leopard being pestered to death by a gadfly.
     
    #26
  27. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    Another interesting:

    Ivanisevic-Krajicek 9-3 (Goran winning 9 consecutive)

    Agassi-Courier 5-7 (Courier winning 6 consecutive)



    This one is extremely curious:

    Bruguera-Krajicek 4-5 (but Bruguera leading 2-1 on indoor carpet, and Krajicek leading 3-1 on clay).
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
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  28. A bad matchup occurs when your favorite player loses consistently to another player, and you need an excuse to justify the losses. :)
     
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  29. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    The OP pretty much nailed it himself, and I agree.
     
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  30. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Thanks.

    10badmatchups
     
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  31. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Davydenko is NOT a bad match up for Nadal.

    The fact is that Davydenko is simply a better hard court player.

    Nadals worst surface by far is hard court....people forget that .

    Djokovic has always dominated Nadal on hard courts as well and was the heavy favorite to win despite their rankings.
     
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  32. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Nadal has won bigger titles on hardcourt than Davydenko though. Davydenko has made only 2 semis at the US Open and none in Australia. He's won 8 HC titles, 3 of which masters, Nadal has won 11 titles, 5 of them masters.

    Now it's possible Davydenko is a better hardcourt player than Nadal and is simply inconsistant, but then why is he always on form whenever he plays Nadal?
     
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  33. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    wonderfully put.
     
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  34. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    thanks you sir :)
     
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  35. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Nadal is not as consistent of a hard court player as you might think.

    It's his absolute worst surface as the speed of the flat ball is a big problem for him on hard courts .

    He can lose to anyone at anytime on a hardcourt. Why stop at davydenko?
    The joker has always dominanted Nadal on hards, so has Hewitt and Blake for that matter .

    I think he was very fortunate to even win on hards or even do so well against Joker.

    Nadal like Borg has big topspin and that's not good for hardcourts. It's no coincidence that hardcourts are the worst surface for both.

    No one ever thought Nadal would win a hardcourt slam much less make it to a final. Borg actually never won.
     
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  36. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    its madam, but whatever.
     
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  37. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    1) 1st bolded- ok but if he can lose to anyone, why has he lost so many times to Davydenko? Luck of the draw?



    2) .and the last time they beat Nadal on HC would be......?

    3) :shock: say wha?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
    #37
  38. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Nadal has been fortunate to do so well on hards. Yes he has won the USO and AO......but it was a combination of playing great and getting a good draw.

    Nadals hardcourt results have been mixed . He can lose in almost any round.

    I remember one year being forced to tiebreakers in the first round by a kid named jones.

    He was shocked by Tsonga, dominated for years by Blake , Hewitt , davydenko and joker for years.

    It's not a "bad matchup ".....it's simply his absolute surface .

    Borg had even said that he didn't think that Nadal could win a hardcourt slam. I'll try and find the video.
     
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  39. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Nadal is more consistent than Davydenko though, he's won 2 hardcourt slams, made 2 finals and 3 semis. It kind of makes me laugh that you always go on about Federer having no competition before nadal but now apparently Nadal is lucky to have even won hardcourt titles. If he is not very good on hardcourt then there can't be much competition now either?

    Anyway, Nadal is 4-3 against Blake, he only struggled against him in the early days and this in fact further serves my point - he's losing to guys like Blake but beating Federer?

    Hewitt is 3-1 on hard but the last win was in 2005. This is a lot different from Davydenko who was beating nadal as recently as last year. Hewitt and Blake only beat Nadal when he had hardly won anything on hardcourt and hadn't really outperformed blake and hewitt on hardcourt.

    Also hardcourt does not automatically equal a fast low bouncing court, IW and Miami and the AO are pretty slow courts, quite suited to Nadal.
     
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  40. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    oops, sorry :)
     
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  41. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    you've managed to build up and tear down Nadal in one sentence.

    mind=blown

    roflmao.

    So he isnt that good at HC, but he won 2 HC slams and multiple HC MS titles including Olympic gold but that was only because the draw was weak and he happened to be playing good.

    How much sense does it make to you when you read it like that?


    all that backpeddaling rather than admit someone may be a bad matchup for nadal?
     
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  42. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    pretty much all of this.
     
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  43. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    Here is Borg.....he predicted everything right about Nadal before it happened .

    At the time of te video Nadal has only won the FO.

    Borg predicted that Nadal would win Wimbledon the next year......

    He also said that Nadal COULD win the USO but that it would take him many years to figure out.

    Borg said that Nadal could win but that Hard courts would take him time to learn because it's a very different kind of surface and very fast.

    This is the point I was trying to make buy couldn't say as well as Borg.

    Nadal is a great player and can play and win on anything . But hard courts present him with his biggest problems....


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcDEI3oEkhc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
     
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  44. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    Nobody is saying that HC is Nadal's best surface.

    The question is, guys who on paper even on HC who shouldnt be able to beat him regularly, yet who do.

    Nadal has lost to loads of people on HC...but only a few routinely get the better of him.

    One is djoker who has proved to be a bad matchup on all surfaces

    the other is Davydenko.


    So, is davydenko, who has not won a slam a better HC player than Rafa or a bad match up?
     
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  45. rst

    rst Rookie

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    ....the sporadic nature of thse meetings and lack of any on courts like Cinci, Us Open make it still somewhat inconclusive........

    id leave it at that.
     
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  46. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    You said he was fortunate to win on hardcourt and he needed good draws.

    Look, nadal has been better on every surface than Davydenko, if davydenko has just wasted his ability then there must be some reason he seems to trouble Nadal without ever coming close to matching his hardcourt achievements.
     
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  47. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    too true as well.
     
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  48. rst

    rst Rookie

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    ........Davydenko is a matchup issue for Nadal - he has a 6-1 winning record on hardcourt against him despite achieving far less than rafa on that surface...........

    the match-up issue may have some traction .
     
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  49. VOLLEY KING

    VOLLEY KING Banned

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    #49
  50. rst

    rst Rookie

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    i heard one commentator speaking aobut djokovics abilty to smash and desire to rip into high kicking serves from someone...i forgot who ( i think it was nadal), maybe some players are more tentative on those and get nadal into a rally where high-serve winners are more likely with some other players???
     
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