What is a "Hard" Weave

Discussion in 'Strings' started by kenshireen, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. kenshireen

    kenshireen Professional

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    I saw YU's video saying to double pull a hard weave but I do not understand what a hard weave is
     
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  2. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

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    A hard weave is a weave that has a longer path than usual ie. between two already strung (opposite) crosses, against grommets staggered the wrong way, etc. It has a more pronounced zigzag path than usual.

    In an easy weave, the string is barely disturbed from a straight line.
     
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  3. dancraig

    dancraig Hall of Fame

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    When weaving crosses, it's when you must weave over a raised main and under a low one.
     
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  4. Steve Huff

    Steve Huff Legend

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    If you don't do any around-the-world patterns, you probably won't encounter hard weaves. I do a lot of ATW patterns, and I guess I've just gotten used to the hard weave for every other cross string.
     
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  5. kenshireen

    kenshireen Professional

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    sorry but I still do not understand... I have been stringing for about a year.
    When you do a cross you usually go over/under or under/over. I do not understand the comment about a high or low main that was made
     
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  6. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    Picture it this way, when you tension a cross, the tensioned string will exert pressure on the main strings, the mains will be a little high or low, depending if the cross was under the main, pushing pressure up, moving main up a little, or the cross will be over the main, applying pressure down on main, moving main down a little, so when you do the next weave right next to the last tensioned cross, the main strings will be harder to go over the slightly raised ones , or under the slightly lower ones, BUT, if you string one ahead, it will be a soft weave, as the slightly raised main you will be going under, and the slightly lowered main , you will be going over, making the weave easier.
    Hope this helps your understanding. Regards, Jim
     
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  7. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    When a cross is tensioned, it pushes the mains that it is under UP and it pushes mains that it is above DOWN. This staggers the mains up and down. So, the ideal path for a cross to weave across these staggered mains is below the ones that are up and above the ones that are down. That's a soft weave.

    Think of a hard weave as having to run around staggered cones in gym class. Overall, you are moving down the length of the gym. But, you have to go to the left and the right to go around cones, thus a work out. That's a hard weave. A soft weave would be cheating and just running straight through the middle of the cones.

    [​IMG]
    Here's a pic demonstrating what I'm talking about. This is a hard weave. A soft weave would be going in between the black dots instead of around them.
     
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  8. todot62

    todot62 Rookie

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    The best example (the way I understand it) is the reason we say "weave one ahead."

    If you weave your first cross and pull tension, you will notice that the mains that you went under will be higher than the mains that you went over because the tension is pushing them up and down. If you weave the next cross you will be weaving over the higher mains and under the lower mains (a hard weave). Now instead of pulling tension go ahead and "weave one ahead". This will be a soft weave because now you will be weaving under the higher mains and over the lower mains (a much easier and faster weave). Once the third cross is in, pull tension on the second cross and you have just setup a soft weave for the fourth cross. A hard weave can also be when you are weaving between two crosses that already have tension, such as an ATW pattern.

    Once you learn to "feel" this soft/hard weave, you can move very quickly with very few, if any, mistakes.

    Tod
     
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  9. todot62

    todot62 Rookie

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    I guess YULitle beat me to the punch, and he had pictures and everything!!:)
     
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  10. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    :D I have an even better picture yet, but it isn't currently hosted online anywhere.
     
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  11. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    I have a hand crank, and I double pull every tension because I can :). It makes the tension pretty stiff, but I notice that even with a soft weave, I get quite a bit of extra string from the second pull.
     
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  12. kenshireen

    kenshireen Professional

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    Tell me if I understand

    I usually string one cross at a time... I weave and then I pull and then I set the clamp.. then I weave and I pull and set the clamp.... This is a hard weave.
    I have a CP machine.. should I be double pulling these weaves? I don't see any reason to do so.

    When I string I always look at the main before I start my cross. the FIRST cross can be either under or over.. that is my choice...but from that point forward I look at the main and determined where my next cross will begin so that each main will always be staggered

    I usually find that once I get beyond the starting point of the crosses, that the crosses will always start with an over or an under ( 18 main racket) and that each subsequent cross that I begin will have the same pattern...meaning that if I started the cross with an over that all the crosses will start with an over...
    If I started with an under than all the cross will start with an under.

    Does this make sense
     
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  13. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

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    OK, call that a normal weave, not hard or soft.

    For this explanation, pretend there is a reason to skip a cross, and then come back later and weave it.

    Since a cross is being skipped, the under/over weave will be identical to the last one. Since it is identical, the same mains will be pushed in the same up/down direction after the cross is installed. Weaving this cross is easier than normal, since the strings are already pushed up/down correctly for this cross by the last cross. This would be a soft weave.

    Later on, the weave between existing identically woven crosses would need to opposite. The force of strings on either side pushing the mains up/down in the wrong direction makes the zigzag path more exaggerated. When tensioned, there is a lot more friction. This would be a hard weave. And a candidate for sequential double pull.

    The actual up/down pattern is no different than usual, just the amount of effort/friction required.

    Stringing one ahead feels like skipping a cross, since the last one hasn't been tensioned yet.
     
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  14. Tombhoneb

    Tombhoneb Rookie

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    Going slightly off topic but ... Is there any performance difference between a hard/soft weave ?
     
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  15. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    Not intrinsically, no. But, I suppose you might notice a difference just like you'd notice any other difference in stringer technique.
     
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  16. kenshireen

    kenshireen Professional

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    Please be patient

    I understand the picture but still do not understand a hard weave.. Also, should a hard weave be tensioned twice.. Can you be kind enough to explain again what a hard weave is.
    I guess mine is a normal weave since I just do one cross at a time and tension and then weave the next...

    Thank you
     
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  17. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    Well, let's take it in steps to see where we're not connecting.

    Do you understand that the mains get staggered when a cross is tensioned?
     
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  18. kenshireen

    kenshireen Professional

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    Little Steps

    I understand that when I pull tension on a cross that it pushes down one main and up on the next... Let's go from this point forward. I still do not understand what a hard weave is... I assume a soft weave is when you weave "one ahead" . Let's go from here

    thank you for holding my hand on this one
     
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  19. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    Oh k, well, now that you understand that the mains are staggered: up, down, up, down, it's also important to know that this staggering can be switched by tensioning the next cross. This is because the cross is woven in the opposite way.

    So, when you tension cross #1, it staggers the mains in a way the is related to the way cross #1 is woven (remember, the mains it's under go up and the mains it's over go down.) Now, when you go to weave cross #2, you are weaving opposite that of cross #1, right? Meaning, the mains that cross #1 went OVER cross #2 will go under, and vice versa. So, this means that, since cross #1 pushed mains up that it was under, cross #2 will have to go over those mains. And, since they are pushed up, it is slightly more difficult to go over.

    Here's a better illustration, I think. I hope this helps. Let me know where it falls short.
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. kenshireen

    kenshireen Professional

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    We're getting there

    I understand the concept of what a soft weave is and why it is easier to weave one ahead... I assume that the one cross ahead is the "soft" weave or is the soft weave the PROCESS where you string one ahead before you pull tension on the cross before?


    "If you weave the same string you intend to tension this is a hard weave". Does this mean that if I just weave one cross and then tension that this is a hard weave.

    Thank you YU
     
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  21. todot62

    todot62 Rookie

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    Not necessarily, however the NEXT weave will definitely be a hard weave. Anytime you are weaving a cross with the PREVIOUS cross tensioned, this is a HARD weave. That is why most stringers will use the PROCESS of weaving one ahead because with the exception of the first cross and maybe the last cross (depending on how much string you have left) all the crosses are soft weaves--a faster way to string crosses. If you choose to use the PROCESS of weaving one cross, tension, weave the next cross, tension etc.--this PROCESS does not have a name and IMHO is not a smart, or accepted technique. It's hard on you, your fingers and MUCH harder on the string.

    Hope this helps.

    Tod
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
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  22. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

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    Calling a normal weave hard? I thought hard weave was the term used for the last weave against the frame on staggered grommet systems and/or dense patterns, or the weave in between two already tensioned crosses in an ATW...

    Perhaps I am mistaken, but the original question posed was in reference to YULitle's advice to double (repeat) pull a hard weave. The advice was given after a "hard" last cross weave in between two installed crosses, near the end of the video labeled Universal ATW.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
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  23. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    They are essentially the same thing. While the one near the frame is harder, it isn't necessarily because of the ATW. The last few crosses on a two piece are just as hard when not stringing one ahead.

    To me, the only "normal" weave is the first one.
     
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  24. tennisfreak15347

    tennisfreak15347 Banned

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    okay now I have a few questions myself... :lol:. so, when doing a normal one-piece and a normal two-piece, assuming that the first cross starts at the very top, that FIRST cross is a "normal weave," with NO staggered mains whatsoever, correct? the SECOND cross would have staggered mains going against the weave, so you do a hard weave, correct? so thats why after you do that hard weave on the 2nd cross, you dont tension it, but, infact, weave one ahead, which would be a soft weave, correct? then all the rest, besides maybe the last cross, would be a soft weave, right? and all hard weaves should be double tensioned, right? tell me if I got everything right.
     
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  25. tennisfreak15347

    tennisfreak15347 Banned

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    can anyone answer my questions?...
     
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  26. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

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    You've got it. Though I only double pull hardweaves that are between two tensioned strings or right up against the frame.
     
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  27. tennisfreak15347

    tennisfreak15347 Banned

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    i dont think I could ever do that; my flying clamps wouldnt allow it.:(
     
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