What is the definition of G.O.A.T

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by The Dark Knight, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    We all use the term GOAT however it has become painfully obvious that the term
    Means different things to different people.

    I'm calling on a bi partisan convention to try and come forward with some sort of unified definition of this very vague term.

    If we can do that workout schewing the parameters towards ones favorite player then I think the debate will end once and for all......highly doubtful but at least it will be interesting to try.

    Any takers?
     
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  2. SoBad

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    The definition is complex - there are many different factors involved.
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. No1e

    No1e Banned

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    I think when people talk about the GOAT, the performances at majors are the most important. Though Roger holds many other amazing records, it's my impression that it is his 17 majors that set himself apart from all other great players.

    No of weeks as world no.1, year-end no.1 and WTFs are the next things that count, I think.
     
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  4. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    That would work if you only wanted to name Federer as the greatestest of all time But that wouldn't really work for anyone else....because then you would have to also say according to your definition that Emerson was greater than Laver.

    You would also have to say that Margaret court is better than Graf,Williams , Navratilova , evert.

    Also you would have to say that laver Borg and Nadal are all equal.....and that Emerson was better than all three of them.

    So I don't think your definition would really work. Do you?
     
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  5. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Youre simplifying it. Laver is considered better because of the two CYGS, and he turned pro.

    Navratilova is considered great because she had to contend with a woman almost on her level in Evert, not true for Court. Serena is mentioned because of the levels she's reached in her tennis, not just because of her accolades.

    Borg and Nadal are virtually equal in most people's minds.
     
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  6. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    It works for players after a certain time period, when conditions (full fields, etc.) are similar enough to rank each major win on equal footing.

    A lot of people like to include longevity, but I've always been impressed with the players who were able to create their own eras, where they were clearly the best over a period of some years.

    I would think a high major count, and dominating a period (at least a period of two years where you are the best) are minimum requirements.
     
    #6
  7. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    for me

    GOAT= a nickname you give a player that you believe will create records so unbreakable that no one in the history of the sport could ever over-take them.

    so for me it's Laver because of the 2 "true grandslams" seem so untouchable.

    Fed as awesome as he is could not do it.
    Rafa has been able to string 3 together but no dice on #4
    and red hot winning streak Novak..with a mental edge of being nearly unstoppable could not make the final of the FO.

    I am starting to doubt we will see a Grandslam again....much less (2) from the same player.

    will we see someone win more than 20 slams? probably
    someone win more than 7 times at a single slam? that should probably happen in the next 3 years


    Fed's weeks @ #1 is about the strongest stat I think he has and we will see when he's cashed in his chips just what that number will be.
     
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  8. No1e

    No1e Banned

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    So, what do you have in mind?
     
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  9. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    He has in mind:

    "Must have 7 French Opens. Must have beaten Federer 8 times out of ten in majors. Must be named Rafael Nadal."
     
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  10. PCXL-Fan

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    GOAT is a nickname iberian and people of iberian descendant (eg many south americaners) call Nadal.

    GOAT is also a nickname people of germanic ethnicity call Federer.

    GOAT is also a nickname people of old age and Aussies call Laver.

    GOAT is also a nickname americans over 30 and greek people call Sampras.

    2ndGOAT is also a nickname Scandinavian people call Borg (no sorry they dont call him GOAT)
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
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  11. SoBad

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    I put Nadal just a notch below Sampras.
     
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  12. No1e

    No1e Banned

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    Well, I think mine is the more popular definition, even though I am not 100% sure I agree with that myself.

    I remember people started labeling Roger as the GOAT after his slam count had surpassed Sampras'.
     
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  13. The Dark Knight

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    It's tough....I don't want to seem biased.

    Certainly the number of slams should count.

    Also the number of slams on different surfaces should count

    I'm scared to say the last one....but ones record against your main rival should count for something ? You can't says it has zero significance just because you hate Nadal.

    Weeks at no 1 and lesser tournaments don't matter to me at all. I believe only slams matter.
     
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  14. PCXL-Fan

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    Weeks at no.1 maters in terms of consistency. You see Nadal is not that consistent on Hardcourt.

    We constantly ding Federer for being less consistent on clay because he loses to Nadal on clay and doesn't reach 80% clay court tournament finals he entered into. So we must also ding Nadal for not being consistent on Hardcourt.
     
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  15. RogerRacket111

    RogerRacket111 Semi-Pro

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    GOAT says "BAAAAAAHHHHH" :)

    COW says "MOOOO"
     
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  16. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I don't want to turn this into a Fedal thing.

    I want to actually consider all players as fairly as possible.

    Sure my favorite player is Nadal....but I'm trying not to give in to my urge.

    I'm truly trying to define goat.....

    I think we first have to define what the term actually means in a general sense.

    Does it mean the player with best record over the longest period of time? Then yes it's Fed......

    But that's not what goat means to me.....to me it means that this person is the greatest player of all time meaning that he could beat anyone anywhere .......

    That person could be djokovic for example except he doesn't have the FO....he is certainly on his way though.

    I don't think there is a real answer to the real goat......meaning the BEST......someone who no one could defeat.

    Mcenroe came awfully close. I think he had like 2 losses one year? He was basically unbeatable ....same as Jokers record almost.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
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  17. Evan77

    Evan77 Banned

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    not his goat s*** again please. don't you guys ever get tired? how many open threads we already have about goat stuff? like 100s.
     
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  18. Swissv2

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    According to the TW forums, the GOAT is determined not by statistics - but by subjective favoritism and bias.

    True story.
     
    #18
  19. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    We need another 50!
     
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    #19
  20. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

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    Line, hook, and sinker. Damn, the fishing expedition has been great!
    Bite, fish, bite.
     
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  21. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

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    Why GOAT? and not S-H-E-E-P?
     
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  22. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Don't read them.
     
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    #22
  23. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    It's Bill Clinton and "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." Take a debate (GOAT) that's already impossibly confounded by disagreement and confound it further by adding disagreement on what the term actually means. Brilliant.
     
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  24. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Don't tell him he's brilliant, he already thinks he's the son of god.
     
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  25. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

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    # of pages of the thread "Fed.. weak era": 103
    # of pages of "Rafa...GOAT candidate": 18 and rising
    # of pages of "Rafa... w/ a broken foot": 6 and rising
    Anyone's guess if this thread will top the 103 pages? I vote YES since I can see a lot of fish biting right now, and more to come. Come, fish, come.
     
    #25
  26. Evan77

    Evan77 Banned

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    sure, I don't have to but it's getting harder to navigate on TW because we have so many multiple threads about the same thing.

    I'm reading your posts over and over again. You trying to explain to *******s that Rog/Rafa h2h matters, and that goat shouldn't be defined by slams only ...then Fed fans/tards, call you names and try to get back to you, call you delusional/stupid etc. Same story all over again. I admire you for being stubborn enough to go through this agony again and again and again. I, personally don't have anything against you btw ... you have your opinion and you stick with it, fine with me.

    I, in general disagree with any goat discussions because, in general we are talking about oranges and apples most of the time. different competition, different equipment, different surfaces, different style of game, there are so many variables.

    However (I'll try to be objective here and contribute to your thread), it's hard to deny that Fed is the most successful (prefer this term more than than goat) tennis player in tennis history based on his results (total slams won, 300 weeks at #1 etc).

    Regardles of their h2h, Fed is simply a much versatile player than Nadal ever will be. Nadal winning 2 HC slams is an amazing accomplishment for him. I simply don't want to go into that match up issue, but it's there. Fed always has been impatient and arrogant when he is playing against Nadal, because Fed has a God complex. Rafa, on the other hand will never have Rog's tennis intelligence or skills, all he does well is grinding and pushing, wearing his opponents down till their collapse.

    I love watching Noserer playing tennis when he is on and not shanking all over the court because he is a genius like it or not. I dislike his arrogance and his personality. I will never cheer for him. I didn't like a young Fed to begin with, he was throwing tantrums left and right but I always recognized his amazing talent. I prefer Rafa's personality, but do not like his game style. Early in Rafa's career I liked him a lot, because he was so fresh and so different. Yet he is his family's puppet and he simply can not or will not think with his own head, a huge turn off for me.
     
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  27. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    Dominance of your sport over a longer, extended period than anyone else.
     
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  28. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    I hate GOAT threads...
     
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  29. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Not a bad contribution.....not really on point but some good stuff there.

    I especially liked the part where you called Federer the most successful player of all time rather than the term goat.

    That is a fact and undeniable .

    But the issue then goes to : does the term "most successful player of all time mean the same as Goat".

    I'm not getting into the Fedal debate because you really can't as goat means different things to different people.

    I think what I'm trying to show everyone here is that you really cannot define Goat.


    Rather all these so called "goat" discussion really boils down to who you think is the best player at their peak.

    This is complete opinion......in fact there is a tennis magazine article this month on just that ( which I have not read).

    Basically the term "goat" is a misnomer. It's an opinion and people will get into heated debates.

    I personally think if you put each player at their peak an play them against each other is the only way to really tell......and then of course you have surfaces .

    Here's my list of the greatest players of all time at peak.....or "Goatap" ...( no not a new iPhone app :) ).

    Grass : Federer
    Hard: Sampras
    Clay: Nadal

    These guys at their peak cannot be beaten on that surface by anyone.

    Now who is the best of those four? We will never know about rebound ace....

    Here's how I would do it:

    Federer Sampras and Nadal could all beat each other even at peak on grass. Favorite goes to Fed but either could upset ....so that's 2 point for the favorite fed and one each for the others

    Fed Sampras and Nadal could all beat each other on hard bit edge goes to Sampras . So I give 2 points to Pete as favorite and 1 point each to Fedal.

    On clay....well here is where Nadal is heads above the rest. The others have no chance . I have to give 3 points to Nadal and zero to the others.

    Nadal 5 pts
    Fed 4 pts
    Sampras 4 pts
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2012
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  30. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    In the Open Era

    1. Number of Grand Slams counts for most, provided they have reasonable success at all Slams.

    2. A career Grand Slam or at least multiple Slam finals at Slams they've never won at.

    3. Versatility. This is similar to point number 2 in a way but the Slams have covered just 2 or 3 surfaces over history. There are more surfaces around; indoor hards, carpet, different types of hard and clay courts. Should be good on ALL surfaces. No exceptions.

    4. Quality of play. I look at players to see how good they were, I don't go "just by the numbers". I feel I can spot greatness when I see it but I could be wrong.

    5. Peak of dominance. Should have at least one great high in their career. I can't call a player a GOAT even if they win 1 Slam an year for 30 years.

    6. A relatively long and sustained Prime. I judge this by their level of play, not their success.

    7. Consistency. They should very rarely go out early in tournaments, especially during their prime.

    8. Longevity. Should be relevant for at least 10 years. They don't have to keep winning Slams all through but need to have a good showing throughout.

    9. Fuel for not just the Slams but the smaller tournents as well. Everything counts, even if it's just a 500, to a certain extent.

    10. Good, all-court play with no glaring weaknesses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
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  31. smoledman

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    POB - by all those criteria there is only 1 pick.
     
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  32. The Dark Knight

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    That's pretty good!

    I guess I would say both Sampras and Feds weakness is clay . Nadal has multiple slams on grass and hards and he went through Frd to get there.

    Feds one FO is pretty good but would you put him in the top clay courters of all time? I don't think you can.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
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  33. Cup8489

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    Rafa has TWO Wimbledons, ONE AO, ONE USO.

    Not GOAT material. You can't have just one major at TWO majors. Even Sampras had muliple slams at 3/4.
     
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  34. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I agree with that.

    Except that what's amazing is that Nadal has missed 6 slams and an Olympics . Somehow he still
    Managed to win all of that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
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  35. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    Slams > #1 weeks ~ #1 years > WTFs ~ Masters ~ Olympics > Davis Cup ~ other tourneys > Record against main rivals. Record against main rivals is not even an accomplishment in itself. Plus it's not even coherent because "main rival" isn't even well-defined. Does it need to take into account age, ranking, what the actual h2h is, (circular) etc. Seriously, does any player retire who remembers their h2h against ppl MORE than their actual trophies and years at #1? Most ppl don't even remember their h2hs.

    Also, diversity of slam resume is big as well. Federer having the most majors at three different majors (with Agassi, Sampras, and Connors) is significant. If some guy won 15 USOs and nothing else, I'd consider Sampras better, all else being equal.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
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  36. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    For me GOAT = Most Successful Resume in the history of the game. Plays the game effortlessly and makes it look easy and plays beautiful tennis. Great personality, very classy both on court and off. I see this in Roger Federer and In my opinion he is GOAT but thats just me
     
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  37. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    But see thats not an excuse. He missed them because he overworked himself and its HIS fault. Its not like he was banned from it like in the case of Laver!
     
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  38. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    I think it is Greatest of all time. correct me if i am wrong. It's an illusion. It doesn't exist.
     
    #38
  39. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    It is also an animal when lamb is sold out at the grocery.

    Safin
    Kafelnikov
    Sampras
    Nadal
     
    #39
  40. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    1.5 years of slams in an 11 year career is not that much. Especially considering he caused the missed slams/olympics. Stop trying so hard.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
    #40
  41. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    How can Safin and Kafelnikov be a GOAT ? one was womanizer and the other was a lazy bumb
     
    #41
  42. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Safin is a democratically elected legislator who represents the will of his people.
     
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  43. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Yea right, it is the will of his hormones, people should be worried about.
     
    #43
  44. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    They like it.
     
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  45. Tennis sensation

    Tennis sensation Hall of Fame

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    Goat is defined by the dictionary as
    1. any of numerous agile, hollow-horned ruminants of the genus Capra, of the family Bovidae, closely related to the sheep, found native in rocky and mountainous regions of the Old World, and widely distributed in domesticated varieties.
     
    #45
  46. Zarfot Z

    Zarfot Z Semi-Pro

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    "What is the definition of G.O.A.T"

    Roger Federer

    /thread
     
    #46
  47. tusharlovesrafa

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    LOOL...:razz:
     
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  48. tusharlovesrafa

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    it seems you like Marat!:)
     
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  49. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    I don't think any GOAT candidacy can be taken seriously without considerations for clothing styles and love of the sea.
     
    #49
  50. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Federer has 4 or more championships at 3 different Slams. He's got atleast 5 finals at every Slam. And Federer is more of a great on Clay than Nadal is on Hards. Not to mention, Federer is good on every surface. Nadal leaves much to be desired on indoor Hards. And let's not even go into consistency. It almost seems like I chose my points after Federer when it's actually the other way round. That's how much he exemplifies a GOAT.
     
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