What is the definition of G.O.A.T

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by The Dark Knight, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Let's put it this way--Federer is so dominant that there *has* to be a surface GOAT (against whom he's got a bad match-up to boot) in front of him for this discussion to be taking place at all. Many people still give it to Federer over Laver despite the fact that he's had to contend with the clay GOAT during his whole career. Had there been a few years' difference between Federer's and Nadal's careers, it wouldn't even be close and Fed would blow Laver out of the water (and I'm taking Laver's pro career into account).

    But yeah, the main points are obviously major titles (doesn't necessarily means GS titles only, depends on the times) on all surfaces and overall dominance. Federer tops both lists, so he's obviously a very strong contender for the title. I still prefer to use tiers, though, but to each his own.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
    #51
  2. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    THE surface GOAT. On Federer's worst surface. It's sort of interesting to see that Federer is the only guy not named Nadal to win the FO in 8 years. That could be 10 years in 2 years.
     
    #52
  3. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    If you think about it, it's even harder to define the GOAT along strict parameters in team sports like football and basketball where you have different positions and other enablers helping support your performance. In those sports people don't try to look for something akin to a neat mathematical formula or tight definition to determine who they think the GOAT is. They take into account all the information and then a popular consensus emerges.

    With that in mind, I would define the GOAT to be the player in any given sport who most punters and pundits consider to be the greatest to have played the game, taking into account complete skillset, all the information and all the results. Very few sports have an undisputed GOAT, but a poplar consensus usually emerges. I think there is sufficient knowledge amongst punters and pundits for that to be fairly accurate. I would also say the stronger the consensus, the stronger the claim of GOAT.
     
    #53
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes sure...in Putin Party
     
    #54
  5. sdont

    sdont Legend

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    Isn't Nadal ahead of Safin now with 28 points? Time to update your file.
     
    #55
  6. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    I have five computers and three printers and cannot print out a single page. What is happening in the world?
     
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  7. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    You mean the widely popular political figure who brought a wealth of intelligence experience to the high public office?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OFOPd6pgjI
     
    #57
  8. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    I admire Mr. Safin for his contributions to the democratic process.
     
    #58
  9. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    I can't print the file.
     
    #59
  10. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Number of years as world no. 1 should be part of the equation.
     
    #60
  11. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Lol this has now turned into a political debate
     
    #61
  12. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, but we need threads like this, so the Fed fanboys (and their 300 alternate accounts) can post irrelevant lists, try to wish away the Grand Slam and cry "he be GOAT!!! You am accept it you troll!" and "Everyone be on steroids except Rogi!!!"
     
    #62
  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fed is the greatest hard court and grass(tie with Pete) player of all time. Despite clay is his not his strongest surface, many people on average have him at #7 best of all time. He is the only player in history to win atleast 50 matches in each of the 4 slam events. There's no player that has the most complete resume like Federer. He's like the M. Jordan of the NBA, who is widely considered the greatest basketball player.
     
    #63
  14. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Yeah he is better than Jesus IMO :)
     
    #64
  15. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Well, he *did* walk on blue clay... :lol:
     
    #65
  16. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Yep, the Fed fanboys (and their 300 alternate accounts) post irrelevant lists, try to wish away the Grand Slam and cry "he be GOAT!!!
     
    #66
  17. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Websters dictionary defines GOAT as:
    [​IMG]
     
    #67
  18. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Did you somehow find that one post of the same thing was not enough to make your point?????

    LOL
     
    #68
  19. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    It was enough to get you to comment on it, so the smart money says it worked.

    LOL, indeed.
     
    #69
  20. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Anyway, does anybody have reason to argue against my criteria being good enough to judge GOAT-ness?
     
    #70
  21. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    greatest of all t__ts?
     
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  22. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    :lol::lol:
     
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  23. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    What about true Grand Slam? You miss that!
     
    #73
  24. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    It's a great achievement, probably the hardest, but I don't think it necessarily says too much about the greatness of a player that the other points don't as far as I'm concerned.
     
    #74
  25. sdont

    sdont Legend

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    People are lazy. The end is nigh.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
    #75
  26. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    The Former Pro Player section has issued a bounty on your head, just FYI

    I pretty much agree with this
     
    #76
  27. zam88

    zam88 Professional

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    My definition of GOAT is if we had a hypothetical best of 99 amongst every player in his prime across multiple surfaces, who would end up with the most wins.

    I can't imagine any scenario where Federer doesn't beat almost every player.

    And if somehow he lost the best of 99 to Nadal, Nadal would lose his best of 99 to a few other players and thus Federer would still have the most wins.

    Nadal would have a lot more 63-36 total wins over opponents, whereas Federer would have more 80-20, 90-10 type of results.


    But if you don't like that idea, i'll just go with the most accomplished player... and in the men's game that's Feds.

    Unfortunately it seems like the real records only go back about 20ish years.... I mean how can you compare Feds 17 slams to Borg's 11 when Borg only played 3 events per year (25% less opportunity) and didn't have the benefits of modern training to keep him in the game until 30 (way less opportunity).


    Here's what I do think though... I think Fed's records hold up a LONG DAMN time. Some of them I doubt get ever matched (23 consecutive semis) or weeks at #1.
     
    #77
  28. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Not for "GOAT"!
     
    #78
  29. RogerRacket111

    RogerRacket111 Semi-Pro

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    Goat Bahhhhh

    Cow Moooo
     
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  30. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Let's say I agree with you that Laver is the GOAT. You're saying the Grand Slam was easy for him?
     
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  31. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Everyone is lazy and greedy, that's the problem. Everyone wants to get off the goat and straight into a 328i...
     
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  32. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    #82
  33. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    #83
  34. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Roger Federer
     
    #84
  35. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Roger Goaterer.
     
    #85
  36. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    Capra aegagrus hircus
     
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  37. No1e

    No1e Banned

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    But I believe Djokovic will take over in five years.
     
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  38. sdont

    sdont Legend

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    Do you agree that Safin was lazy and could have won more if he had worked hard?

    Is laziness a GOAT attribute?
     
    #88
  39. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

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    No, it's a SHEEP attribute. Just kidding!
    6 pages in this thread and seems to go strong. Somebody must be rubbing his hands and LOL.
     
    #89
  40. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

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    Not sure why you held the FO09 title Fed won in contempt. Nadal, the true master, wasn't there. Why? Let me guess, he got kicked by Soderling, didn't he? Now that had nothing to do with Fed. Fed did his part which was to make it to the final. Rafa didn't do his homework, did he?
    You're gonna say, "Well, if Rafa had been there, he would have crushed Fed". Haa... well, he was NOT. So whoever won that day got to keep the trophy, no? Why the contempt? Otherwise, we can go back to each GS and say, "What if..." At that rate, no player can have one single title, no?
     
    #90
  41. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    He was, actually. Maybe you should brush up your tennis knowledge, but Nadal was definitely there, seeded #1, at FO 2009. You can find the draw here, although I really think that someone with your (supposedly) superior tennis knowledge should have known that small "detail":

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
    #91
  42. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    To me, the GOAT debate is about determining the most impressive resume of the following qualities (relatively in order of importance):

    1. Dominance (including depth of dominance and length of dominance)
    2. Consistency (including variety on different surfaces, avoiding early-round losses, etc.)
    3. Longevity

    There are a handful of people who were quite dominant for a sustained period of time: Laver, Tilden, Federer, Budge, Gonzales, H.L. Doherty, Sampras, Rosewall, and Borg. That's about my order of them, but any single one of them has quite a case to be made on his behalf.
     
    #92
  43. rofl_copter3

    rofl_copter3 Professional

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    OK so say a player is not the greatest on any single surface but top 10 of all time on all of them, does that weigh into the argument?

    Nadal is probably the greatest clay courter of all time, but not in the top 15 on hard courts and probably just a bit ahead of that on the grass...

    Federer is not probably the greatest ever on any particular surface but is in the top 10 on all three and in the top 5 on two of them...

    Laver only truly great on grass tho he did win some on clay and Mac and Sampras couldn't do the clay thing too well...

    Borg is honestly the only other person I truly believe had the consistency across all surfaces and honestly I would say the argument should be between Borg and Federer
     
    #93
  44. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    If it's about consistency playing at high level on all surfaces, then it's Federer.

    (grass)Wimbledon: 8 finals
    (hard court)US Open: 6 finals
    (hard court)AO: 5 finals
    (clay)RG: 5 finals
    (indoor)WTF: 7 finals
     
    #94
  45. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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  46. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    It means for all of the overrating of Federer's majors record (and some even go as far as to lift FO finals runner-up finishes as some sort of creit, when it means nothing in terms of majors dominance), Federer could win his one and only FO against someone who was NOT the generation's greatest FO champion. There's no tapdancing around Federer's luck in that situation.

    To the original point, even at his so-called "prime," a period his cheerleaders claim is beyond anythig seen before--they have no explanation for his inability to win the Grand Slam. None--yet they want to say he's the greatest sans a greatest=level performance.
     
    #96
  47. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    "Not there" means the finals, kid.
     
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  48. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    So it's Federer's fault Nadal couldn't make it past the 4th round. Sound logic there. Federer was more deserving of the French Open that year than anybody else, including and especially Nadal, who was blown off the court by Soderling who got straight-setted by Federer. Suck it up and face the music. Federer won the French Open fair and square.
     
    #98
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    At first sight, it looks like.

    I don´t want to take anything of Federer, nobody gave him those titles for free but...there are so many buts in his career.

    1/weak era: meaning we should weighten his titles, and we need to establish a ponderated rating like: 2000´s titles should be divided by 2,5 to equalize with 1970´s or 1980´s.
    2/owned by Nadal when matters
    3/Rosewall and Laver won many pro slams, that being the true slams all across the 1960´s.

    In a way, while I think Fed is a better player ( I saw both and Roger is definitely better), his career looks a better version of Roy Emerson...
     
    #99
  50. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    How is it a "Weak Era"? I could just as easily say Laver and Sampras played in equally weak eras. There's no way to substantiate it.
     

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