What level is the guy in the white shirt?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by [ GTR ], Nov 16, 2012.

  1. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    Let's just say the guy is good and then some, when you win points serving and volleying, then you're good.

    Is it me, or does he have an odd service motion? (but certainly works for him!)

    There's sort of a delay/pause of his racquet-head right before he gets into the trophy position (and a very very brief one too!). Overall, a very snappy service motion.
     
    #51
  2. [ GTR ]

    [ GTR ] Semi-Pro

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    Yep, Mark is the older brother
     
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  3. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    For educational purposes, can someone explain what shot tolerance means? thanks
     
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  4. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    It's a made up word. it probably means he is able to return hard shots well.
     
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  5. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    As I understand it, shot tolerance is how many balls a player is used to/willing to hit into play before they feel they must end the point by hitting an awesome shot.

    Clay court specialists, for instance, are believed to have a higher shot tolerance, and don't mind hitting 30 balls in a row to win a point. Serve and volley players tend to want to conserve energy and end the point quickly and will become very uncomfortable if pinned to the baseline and therefore, because of a lack of shot tolerance, go for a winner even if they don't have the ball they want.
     
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  6. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Shot tolerance is the ability to deal with a level of ball, has nothing to do with patience.

    It is one thing to have nice looking or good strokes, but shot tolerance is how they hold up. The difference between having a good forehand return against a 100, a 115, and a 130mph serve. The difference between having a steady backhand against a 4.5 club player's forehand topspin, a DI college kid's topsin, and Rafa's topspin.

    A DI college kid can have a beautiful 1hbh, and James Blake can have an ugly 1hbh, but James' backhand can return Roddick's serve where the college kid is overmatched.

    J
     
    #56
  7. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    It may be that multiple definitions of the term are being used in professional tennis teaching circles. Your definition seems to make sense, but it wasn't the way the term was explained to me by a teaching pro (this was many years ago).

    Here's a video of another guy using it in terms of comfort with hitting in long rallies, rather than the other definition in terms of being able to handle balls with a lot of pace.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1sCs2XY2U

    The definition of being able to handle pace makes more sense in terms of the video at the start of this thread. The rallies weren't very long, but the ball was being hammered.
     
    #57
  8. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    around #200-150
     
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  9. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    I've only heard "shot tolerance" used in the way WildVolley is using it: patience, ability to keep a rally going, number of shots. A google search turns up many examples of pros using the term this way.

    I haven't found any examples of people using it J011yroger's way.
     
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  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    IMO this is an excellent explanation.
     
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  11. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    USTA explanation: http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=3002

    Jose Higueras: http://blog.tennisandi.com/?p=120
    Q. Could you define shot tolerance for me?
    JOSÉ HIGUERAS: It means when you can play more than one shot or two, as many as you need to stay in the point, and not lose advantage on the point. Basically one second you can hit the ball, you can hit the ball that lands close to the baseline a couple inches from the net; you can you hit it when it goes three feet over the net. Effectiveness is the same, but you can probably hit a lot more when you go three feet above the net. That is shot tolerance.
    Q. Not putting yourself on the defensive?
    JOSÉ HIGUERAS: No, that’s a huge misconception, and that’s something that when you’re working with kids that haven’t grown up with that concept. If you say, You gotta be a little more aggressive, and then everything is a thousand miles an hour.
    Then you say, You gotta play a little more consistent, then everything is a push. So the reason a middle ground, which is normally the shots that are used more in tennis. So it’s not about playing defensive, it’s about playing good percentages.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
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  12. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Problem with using adjective to define something precisely.

    He has "nice" shots. What does that mean.

    Same thing applies to "shot tolerance".

    People try to monopolize adjectives to mean one thing when there is no need to. Add the proper context and it becomes clearer (but not perfectly clear).

    Tolerance can mean the ability to generate a stroke that is reliable and effective. Hence, the discussion of hitting a ball with more net clearance would lead to higher tolerance compared to hitting one, equally effective, but crosses the net lower. This is shot production.

    Tolerance can also mean the boundary where a player's stroke goes from exhibiting a gradual failure curve to a more abrupt drop in effectiveness when the ball they have to face gets tougher. The dimensions of "tough" can be anything. Some but not all listed below

    1: pace
    2: spin
    3: height
    4: location deep/shallow, wide,etc..
    5: repetition
    6: variety or change up
    7: pressure situation versus

    If you can picture a multi-dimensional graph and plot the dependent measure "effective", which is another multi-dimensional measure, you will see where the player will suddenly drop in effectiveness.

    Of course, you can say it as "point of failure" or "point of rapid decrease in effective". In calculus you would say that the point where the derivative suddenly increased negatively is the boundary.
     
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  13. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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  14. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    this is what i understood it to be.
     
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  15. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    That's an interesting and nuanced definition of "shot tolerance" dennis10s, but I'm not sure it bears much relation to how tennis professionals actually use the term.

    I don't think it's "monopolizing adjectives" to point out what a term actually means in common usage...
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
    #65
  16. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Lol... Ask any decent tennis coach. When they describe shot tolerance its not what you or jolly is saying.

    Might as well say a top spin fh is really a fh when you spin your racket after the hit. You spin the racket forward its top spin you spin it backwards its slice. It can be true for you but the rest of the tennis world sees it differently.
     
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  17. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I use it the way WildVolley describes it, but I really like Jolly's version, it makes perfect sense.

    I often see 'pretty players' who just can't handle heavy hitters and 'ugly players' that can.

    and the term fits.
     
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  18. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "tolerance", to me, means you can handle the full variety of shots, spin, pace, placement.
     
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  19. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    It's kind of part of the same whole, isn't it? Pace and spin can break down strokes. Could shot tolerance be described as the ability and willingness of a player to hang in a hard hitting rally, hitting big, aggressive shots but being smart about placement and not going for winners until the right ball presents itself?
     
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  20. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    impressive player at just 15. really cannot predict future from this but good luck to him.

    his serve is not that odd. he has the habit of right arm extension as he tosses which is not a problem. as he gets stronger his arm will relax more and be able to generate more spin and control. good serving form IMO.
     
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  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Here is what breaks it out and makes wildvolley more correct. If you can't handle
    the pace/spin of the shots, the error is forced and bears little on shot tolerance.
    Shot tolerance deals with UEs and how many shots you will normally be able to
    tolerate in a rally before you will go for a winner or make a UE in the effort.

    What level of shot you can handle deals more with your level of play and how
    good you are, but with shot tolerance, you could have a number that is the
    same as Fed's, but still be a 4.0 player. If either player rarely will hit more than
    5 balls before going for broke, then they have a shot tolerance of 5...no matter
    if it's pro level shots or avg 4.0 shots.
     
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  22. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    agree-his serve motion is pretty good to me. fluid enough, not really hitch. he kinda slaps it sometimes i think to try to get more pace
     
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  23. GaijinCoach

    GaijinCoach New User

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    More info on the Kid

    You can view all his information at his website
    http://www.akiradjsantillan.com

    You will need to sign-up to view his information.

    The guy in the red shirt is Scott Puodziunas he is 6ft 5in and is ranked 48 in Australia. Akira Santillan in the white shirt is 5ft 10in and is ranked 96 in Australia. Mark Draper is the coach of Akira and he is in the blue shirt.
     
    #73
  24. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Hmm, I wonder how neutral a party you are...
     
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  25. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Agree with this. All of the coaches I know use it as a patience based term.

    As the rally get longer pressure builds on people. They (maybe subconsciously) want to relieve this pressure and go for more than they should on a shot. For some people this happens after just a few shots. For others it may be 30 shots.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
    #75
  26. GaijinCoach

    GaijinCoach New User

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    Neutral enough to give you more information.

    Also he has only played one International Tournament. He has only played 6 ITF tournaments in his life, he has won 1 singles, 2 doubles and reached the semi-finals of the last 4 or better.

    The past 3 months he has changed a lot. Used to be hot headed and now seems to be calming down finding his inner peace on court. Prior to that his shot tolerance was crap but has improved tremendously. He used to pull the trigger very early. Since he has been with Mark he is learning patience and it is paying off. He plays matches better than he trains as he loves to compete.

    A couple of weeks ago he won an Open Mens Tournament beating a former US College player with a protected AR Ranking of 19 and in the previous round beat another highly ranked Australian player name Isaac Frost AR 41.

    He is 3 in the country for his age 1997, he is also #1 for age groups 1997,96,95 and 94 in the State of Queensland and I am sure if he had more exposure to the International circuit he would be number 1 in the country.
     
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  27. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    you don´t need to be neutral:) if you have a private connection to santillan that´s cool
     
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  28. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    good stuff....lets see how he continues to play
     
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  29. GaijinCoach

    GaijinCoach New User

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    #79
  30. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    It is enjoyable to watch that kid. Makes me want to hang it up. :)
     
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  31. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Good God I feel old. Next year, people born in 1997 will be able to drive a car.
     
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I got my driver's license on Feb. 15, 1965........and bought a 250 Yamaha 5 days later.
     
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  33. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Yeah but we already know you're old :lol:
     
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  34. 10sEmporer

    10sEmporer Banned

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    how long did you keep the bike... are you still riding?
     
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