what level of men players can beat a top ranking female player?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Frankauc, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^Ahhh, come on. Don't break up with us. :(
     
  2. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Don't let a few folks run you off. For each one of them, there are 10-20 more who appreciate your special insights, due to the type of playing you do.
    I'm pretty surprised that anyone found you big headed. You always seemed pretty level headed to me all things considered.
     
  3. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Agreed with 5263.

    It seems you can't win at all on here.

    The anonymous posters get slammed because they don't show their results and then someone freely offers their identity and even that doesn't stop people trying to call them out.

    Hope you stay around - I always appreciate your feedback because I know who you are, know your results and, as a result, can put context behind your opinions.
     
  4. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^^I agree. TonLars is one of the good guys on the boards, and although he and I had a disagreement, it seems like a drastic measure to take because he doesn't see eye-to-eye with a handful of posters.

    In my opinion, people take stuff on these boards way too seriously.
     
  5. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    Quality post, and accurately describes what goes on around here..this forum repulses the people it should be trying to attract....ie; really good players like you, quality teaching pros, people who are well connected, and etc

    It isnt your fault there are a few rude, inconsiderate, obnoxious people here who ruin the forum for everyone else. These people are obviously insecure, jealous, have huge yet fragile egos, and quite frankly, are just low quality people..these same ones are permitted to troll the forum and attack and insult others on a regular basis here, ruining the forum for all those who have some level of maturity

    Cant say I blame you for bailing..you seem like a good guy, and am wishing you the best on your adventure...Mojo

    ps. leaving you with another post from a new forum member who was the first to review the new Sampras racquet, tried to help the forum by posting specs on the other upcoming wilson frames, is a teaching pro, and advanced tourney player..all this substantiates what i wrote above as this guy was summarily trolled, stalked, badgered, and insulted off the forum by the usuals

     
  6. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^Wow you are dense. It's already been determined he never reviewed it, is not a teaching pro or top player. LOL
     
  7. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    No not at all....:shock:

    Your computer rating IS NOT 6.0. End.
     
  8. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    There is a reason for that.
     
  9. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Pete Sampras' computer rating IS NOT 7.0. End.

    Roger Federer's computer rating IS NOT 7.0. End.
     
  10. nickynu

    nickynu Semi-Pro

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    Hey Drakulie - you may think that NBMJ is dense and stupid and whatever, but did you actually get evidence the other guy was lying about the sampras racket or was that just deduction on your part as he didnt post pics? Cheers man.
     
  11. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    So your comparing the two greatest tennis players of all time to Tony? :oops:

    What would they be given then? 3.5? 4.0?
     
  12. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    Tony's won $.. Give him some respect
     
  13. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    Most decent tennis players above 4.5 have won some $....
     
  14. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    Okay.. :confused:
     
  15. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    I think a lot of what we're bickering about here could be boiled down to one thing...lack of respect.

    People who work their arses off on a game such as tennis IMO deserve a certain amount of respect, whether they are men, women, 6.0s, or 3.5s.
     
  16. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    No I'm proving that you don't have to have a computer rating to be at a certain level. Federer is a 7.0 because the guidelines state that being in the top 400 means you are a 7.0. Tony is a 6.0 presumably because he has performed at a level that the USTA considers 6.0. Doesn't mean he will have a computer rating. Computer ratings are not even applicable to players of those levels. Thats why they say that rankings speak for themselves.
     
  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Why, is the string pattern 18*20?
     
  18. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Spot on Raiden...and if you do look up Tony's record, you will see he pretty much demolishes 5.0s, and if you have any inkling of his college record/career, the 6.0 is not a stretch by any means.
     
  19. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Hey Tony, we never communicated but I really enjoy reading your posts... if it's not too late, please change your mind about leaving.

    Yeah, there are a few pit bulls here that go on a rampage for no reason and chew up everyone, but ignore them... there are many more like me who appreciate that fact that there are quality players who contribute to this board.

    If you don't come back, hey, I wish you all the best!
     
  20. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    So, shall we get back to topic...is it even worth it at this point?

    The question is...what level of men [sic] players can beat a top ranking female player?

    Top ranking, I don't think, has been defined by the OP or anyone else. So, we say top 100?

    But, I think there should be a delineation for the top 20, or even top 10.

    As many others already stated, a D1 male will more than likely fill this role (or someone of that caliber).

    A 4.5 is *not* of that caliber. So, all you guys on here who think you can beat Venus...dream on. Unless you are at least looking at 5.5, you're in fantansy land.

    Look, I think we can all agree, women are not going to hit as hard as men, right? There are phsyical attributes that will always set them apart. However, this does NOT mean that the women on the WTA tour are not top notch athletes and tennis players. Over time here, there have just been too disrespectful posts to that effect (even to some of the top guys...people here seem to know what Fed needs better than he does!).

    If I had a penny for every post I've read on here that generally says 'I only watch the WTA for the outfits' or 'The WTA players should compete in bikinis' then I could singlehandedly solve the US's financial crisis! So, yes, when I see this topic posted for the umpteenth time, I bang my head on my desk.

    And that is without mentioned the posts on the league forum. And certainly not mentioning a thread about how some people say they are so good that they can beat 3.5s...with a broomstick. Imagine being someone who has worked hard to get that bump-up to 3.5, and then reading such crap!

    So, yes, I've wildly strayed off topic again! Again, I think it all boils down to respect. Am I innocent in all of this mess? Heck no!

    But I still think Dennis's post was one of the best I've read on here in a long time!!! I'm still laughing at the notion of 'grabbing my sisters and running' for the hills (or something to that effect)!

    At the end of the day...I ask this...WHY DOES IT MATTER??? Why do any of us care what level man can beat or compete with a top ranking female pro??? In tennis, there are so many variables, that even if we ALL agreed on a certain level, on any given day.....

    That's why they (we?) still play the matches.

    Ok, gotta head home...got some demos waiting for me! Yee ha!
     
  21. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    ^^^ You are right Topaz, it doesn't matter. Whoever wins, I am going to like women more than men, anyway! :)

    Seriously, I think it will take a 6.0 or higher to beat the likes of Ivanovic and Jankovic, and on any given day, it can go either way. I base this on their fitness, speed, and consistency. They also have a huge amount of power when they need it - they are professional athletes, after all.

    But again, who cares about this hypothetical comparison. Women are women, and men are men, and never the twain shall compete.
     
  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    They actually do compete, in table tennis. There are regional Opens in the US where men and women play each other.

    It is also allowed in golf, but Wie tried and couldn't make it.

    And Danica Patrick seems to doing quite well in NASCAR, though I really don't follow that "sport."
     
  23. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Couple of things.

    1. He offered to post photos, and never did. He also stated he would complete a review, and never did.
    2. He then asked if someone could tell how to post photos.
    3. When offered several links, including tutorials>>> he never posted the photos.
    4. He offered to email the photos to those interested. he never did.
    5. He stated he had a manager, however, a few days later he started a thread asking if posters could tell him where to play money tournaments. (If he has a manager, why isn't his manager doing this)
    6. Only when being "called out" a few weeks later, did he post a review.
    7. His review is essentially the K90.
    8. He again offered to email the photos to those interested. He never did.
    9. He also stated in his "review" the frame was evenly balanced, and then in another post stated it was headlight (or vice versa. can't remember but he was called on it, and got defensive, and then quit the boards.).
    10. After "quitting the boards" came back twice just to insult several members.

    After so much back and forth, it would have taken him less time to send the photos and prove he actually even saw it, or back up what he claimed.

    You do the math.
     
  24. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    This is the internet. Wake up.
     
  25. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    you're such a sexist! ;O a few of the women can hit it harder <more ball speed> than several of the men, for a few reasons which I can explain if anyone is interested. Sharapova and Davenport immediately come to mind. tennis is far from being mostly about physical power unless comparing two players who generate their power from muscling the ball. BTW, the WTAers usually use a livelier ball than the ATPers so that makes things a little sticky too

    ok..let's get back on topic. i've some real on court experiences so like to think i can make a valid contribution.

    the answer i believe is that it depends. cant see a 5.5 baseliner who doesnt posess a really good serve and a good service return doing very well against say a top20..after all, those are the 2 most important shots in tennis, even though lots of people seem to be hung up on groundstrokes. there are also levels within the top20, lots in the top50, and even more in the Top100. A young, fit, very good serving all courting 5.5 would be competitive I think

    these girls thrive on pace. they arent going to be hit thru. where they are weak is hitting their spots on serves. that's why I say from experience that they have lots of trouble w. well placed serves deep in the box or y serves w. enough work because they arent used to seeing such things because they themselves dont have serves like this in general. their 2nd serves are often attackable. they tend to serve very short in the box which negates the high MPH some of them get on their serves. they also generally dont like to be presented w. a lot of variety and dont do that well with balls placed in awkward positions for them..obviously all courters like henin are fine w. shots like that..so they would be very happy playing a typical modern 5.5 guy baseliner who lacks shot variety and a really good serve
     
  26. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

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    drakulie - who did this? (apology in advance cause i can't keep up with this forum and the continuing economic bailouts... :( ...no end in sight...WTF !!! )
     
  27. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Hi Nickb

    Every now and again you seem to have a grumpy day and I suppose this is one of those!! :)

    Tonlars, like some people, has a rating that underestimates his game. This is very prevalent in the US at 5.0 and above because the mechanisms over there are not efficient at re-rating above that level. It's not disingenuous for him to put that in his signature as that represents his standard. Check his results if you don't agree.

    Let me give you an example in the UK - where the system is a lot more efficient - of someone who obviously plays above his rating level.

    You. You are rated an 8.1 by the Lta, which (according to the ITN conversion charts) is the equivalent of a 3.0.

    Do you think it would be fair to describe yourself as a 3.0 in discussion here? Or do you think it would be more appropriate to give an indication of your true level which would be higher?

    This is what Tony is doing and I am very surprised that in your situation you appear offended.

    Is this worth losing a good poster over?
     
  28. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    If im honest...I couldn't care less what people on here think of me....yes I play higher which is why im being put up to a 5.2. Have I ever said im higher rating than whats on the computer here? No. I wouldn't lie.

    I try and avoid reading Tony's post so....

    BTW we need to play each other some time!
     
  29. nickynu

    nickynu Semi-Pro

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    Yeah please, that would be most educational. Do you mean ATP players CANT hit it harder than the women. For instance I imagine Ivanovic (one of the bigger hitters on WTA) playing her boyfriend Verdasco would get absolutely blown off the court
    6-0 6-0, Do you agree ?
     
  30. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    People have asked you before on other threads and you have given them a 5.0 guideline though.....right? (That would be a 4.2/4.1 in LTA terms). That guideline was useful so they knew the level of player they were dealing with. That's all Tony is doing IMO.

    Anyway, enough of that....

    We'll have to hit sometime. I've got a mate near Nottingham whom I visit every now and again which is probably half way between us. They have indoor courts at the national centre. I will email you next time I plan on being up there.
     
  31. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    and drag that bum nickynu along!
     
  32. nickynu

    nickynu Semi-Pro

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    HEY nickb, hey Moz, can I get in on this action - I break from Uni for xmas mid dec - a little roadtrip to cambridgeshire maybe ?
     
  33. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    I dont think that conversion chart is much use. I feel that 6.1's are playing at the 5.0 level. Most 8/7's I have seen are better than 3.5 players .

    I could get there...let me know.
     
  34. nickynu

    nickynu Semi-Pro

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    lol - SOUNDS GOOD GUYS!
     
  35. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    Oh ****! Your in cambridge?

    Im there 12-14 Dec on LTA course...coaching at hills road centre (think its called that).
     
  36. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    What Evert actually said was that a top college player could beat the top women.

    This was in response to Martina Navratilova's claim that she could beat the #100 man in the world. Vitas Gerulaitis responded to this by saying he'd bet his house that she couldn't. Navratilova responded to this by adding the caveat if she could pick the surface she thought she stood a chance. This prompted Gerulaitis to look up the #100 man in the world and attempt (real or not) to set it up.

    At that time, Evert's younger brother played #1 singles for the University of Auburn which may have prompted Evert saying that a top college player could beat a top woman's professional.

    It should also be noted that the single most grueling drill I've ever heard of was one imposed on Chris Evert by her father. Evert would have to hit 50 balls in a row on HarTru back to her male hitting partner. The hitting partner would be some world class pro whose job was to hit the ball away from Evert. Evert had to hit the ball back to him and if she missed, the count started over. The pro got to stand in one spot. Amazing stuff and something I don't think even a 5.5 male could do consistently but Evert did.

    I had the opportunity to hit with a girl from the Czech Republic who was a Tier 2 event player. She was headed to Los Angeles for an event and the pro I took from at the time asked if I'd give her a work out. I posted on it then. I'm a 4.5 and couldn't keep up with her groundies. There were two 'drills' if you can call them which challenged her. Her coach had me stand in either one of the service boxes and hit volleys. Her job was to hit through me. I got to hit the entire court. She got tickled that I volleyed so well (better than her I must admit) but being an old fart it probably wasn't fair. When we rallied, the only balls that gave her trouble were slices.

    The other 'drill' was when they asked me to serve to her. I had figured out that this was for her and not me and asked her where she wanted me to serve. She asked me to serve 9/10 to her backhand to start and throw one or two as a surprise. When she knew where the ball was going, her returns came back faster than the serve went over. We then repeated on the forehand side. Again, if she knew where the ball was going to be....it was ugly....

    I saw nothing that would disagree with what Evert said. A professional woman....someone who makes their living on the tour....will not lose to anyone needing an NTRP ranking. NTRP rankings are handicaps to help us play people of our own ability. Professionals get handicapped by how much they win/lose.

    Ana Ivanovic would kill a club pro.
     
  37. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    I have played 4.5 league and 4.5 and open tournaments in the US for a few years and lots of tournaments in the UK. My experience in the US in the whole of the mid-atlantic area and Florida.

    A 6.1 is nowhere near a 5.0. Sorry, that's a fact. In my real world experience the better 5.1's are a low 5.0 level but the lesser 5.1's would be just below that level at 4.5. The conversion charts don't mean much at levels worse than 6.2 / 4.0 - but were used to illustrate a point.

    Yes, Hills Road. You get to see how poor the Cambridge high performance centre is! We might be able to work something out but at the moment I am scheduled for an ITF tournament in La Manga until the 14th....

    Are you down at Sutton over Christmas / new year?
     
  38. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    I was there last month...nice courts but a bit of a crappy place.

    Might go down for that Christmas open but its a long way for that...

    Will just have to agree to disagree. 5.2's are playing at the 5.0 level imo. There are some very good 6's out there.
     
  39. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    hi..no..i meant what what i said..that someone like Sharapove can hit it w. more ballspeed than some of the ATPers.
    Verdasco would easily destroy any WTAer.
    As far as the ballspeed goes, lots of the women are using more powerful lighter gear than the guys and able to create tremendous batspeed..granted their ball isnt as heavy as most of the ATPers, but it is VERY fast and lively, and they are using a faster ball
    also the WTAers tend to hit with less margin for error <net clearance> than many of the guys....that means they make more errors but also means that the balls spend less time in the air because of trajectory, so get up on you VERY quickly
     
  40. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    You know their outdoor clay courts are closed for about 7 months a year - disgraceful. It's just too small to be the best centre for miles. What course are you doing there? I'm thinking of doing some to make some spare cash next year.

    Yes, Sutton is a long way for that. Any up your way? I may play Bristol on the 27th.

    We can agree to disagree but I would be curious where you are getting your data from. Not videos on here I hope!
     
  41. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    I hit with some very good but young junior women (c. 14 y-old) this year and they absolutely clubbed it. Noticeably flatter, harder and earlier than the guys. Made me look stupid until we played some proper points.

    I would get my arse severely kicked by a top 50 woman.
     
  42. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    Its the LTA Level 2 coaching course...when ive done that its off to do the level 3.

    None at all near me. Shame.
     
  43. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Level 2 is the old CCA and level 3 the old PCA?

    How the hell are you supposed to improve without any tournaments all winter? Ridiculous.
     
  44. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    No they have changed it. There is no DCA/CCA now. Level 1 is assistant, Level 2 you can coach on your own, Level 3 you choose club coaching or performance, then PCA is level 4. I think that's right.

    Its a joke really...not 1 single tournament...not happy :-?
     
  45. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    kind of disconcerting at first isnt it? ;) good point about taking it earlier too, as that robs you of time as well.

    these and the other reasons i stated earlier are why i think it would take a 5.5 fit young all courter w. a strong serve to compete.....to try and bang away w. them from the back is a recipe for a beatdown

    they really do play a diff game than the guys..just compare the UE's
     
  46. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Disconcerting is a great description. There I was trying to make a good impression (at my age - sad!) and I get belted off court by a 5'2" 14 year old girl during the drills.

    I did better in the drills where we weren't fixed in one spot and there was more movement. Relatively better anyway!
     
  47. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Ah, got it. I have an old TA qualification I could maybe wheel out.
     
  48. Alexio92

    Alexio92 Professional

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    Did I see you post you were playing christmas tournament at bristol a few pages back? Is that the one at david lloyd center?
     
  49. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Yes, thinking about it mate. I have a mate that lives there so was going to combine the trip if he's around. You?
     
  50. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    ok shall we add humbling as well then? i've been there having been taken by surprise....things got better after adjusting and not giving them what they want, but most of my job w. them was to give them what they want.

    one thing i've noticed is how little time they spend practicing serves and service returns relatively speaking....it really shows in their matches.
     

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