what made that Zeppelin unreachable

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by kiki, Feb 1, 2014.

?

The greatest of all time bands is?

Poll closed Mar 3, 2014.
  1. Led Zeppelin

    10 vote(s)
    23.8%
  2. Pink Floyd

    14 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. The Who

    3 vote(s)
    7.1%
  4. Black Sabbath

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Deep Purple

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  7. Rush

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  8. AC DC

    2 vote(s)
    4.8%
  9. Rolling Stones

    6 vote(s)
    14.3%
  10. Queen

    5 vote(s)
    11.9%
  1. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I like all these bands and having toured and been in the industry, am very familiar with them, and in fact am friends with a guy from one of those bands.

    What separates the new bands and the older ones is not really about playing live. It is more about SONGS.

    Mars Volta and Dream Theatre are fantastic players and have excellent live shows, but they don't have any songs that people can name. Everyone can name a Queen track, a zep track..etc.

    At the end of the day you have to have the songs and the live show if you want to be considered one of the best.
     
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  2. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    The other secret to Zep was they had a unique feel.

    Nowadays, feel is regulated to Pro Tools grid editing, so that nice pocket of a great drummer and bass player is missing many times.

    One key secret to Led Zep was that Bonham was not edited. A great drummer who is not edited is still a human being and the little pushes and pulls against the metronome are really what define a rock n roll band.
     
    #52
  3. monfed

    monfed Guest

    I was doing a solo comparison between Stairway and Comfortably Numb, they're both great but you can see that Stairway is ahead.
     
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  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I like PF and I have great respect for David Gilmour, who is one of the best of the second line of all time great lead guitars.But, no, definitely Page is another thing...

    Except Gilmour and maybe Roger Waters PF achieved a lot without truly great instrumentist.They could have gone other ways if Barret had hold on.
     
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  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    OK,Polls are very close.That is how it is meant to be.R&R is so huge that everybody has its own space.

    I can understand that Queen are in the race.But I cannot believe Who is so low and Stones are so high.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    This is just memorable...do you grant me your permission to use it in my presentation cards?

    I am sure I´ll get lots of new clients...:)
     
    #56
  7. chrischris

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    #57
  8. dParis

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    Please elaborate...
     
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  9. monfed

    monfed Guest

    What's so good about Barett? I like The Wall and a momentary lapse of reason and darkside of the moon way more than the dinosaur pf albums. I find those albums boring.
     
    #59
  10. Midaso240

    Midaso240 Hall of Fame

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    LOL,what I said is hardly a minority opinion. Most music fans would have that opinion. Almost everyone who has heard every Led Zeppelin album and OK Computer would realize that OKC is far superior to any of those...
     
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  11. oztennisfan

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    neither do I, but saying radiohead are better than led zep is laughable.
     
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  12. Midaso240

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    It's not laughable at all - Led Zep aren't all that,Radiohead have done The Bends,OK Computer,Kid A - no albums from Led Zep can touch that. The Rolling Stones from that era are a far greater rock band - the 4 album stretch of Beggar's Banquet,Let It Bleed,Stick Fingers,Exile On Main Street. Led Zep didn't release any albums as good as those...
     
    #62
  13. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    No rock band has ever made a stretch of albums as great as Led Zeppelin 1, Led Zeppelin 2, Led Zeppelin 3, Led Zeppelin 4, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti. Radiohead versus Led Zeppelin? Not even close. Ask Radiohead, they'll probably agree.
     
    #63
  14. oztennisfan

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    as I said, give it a rest. im not that big a zeppelin fan, but I acknowledge they are far greater than some whining crying depressed mob from the 90s and the stones. in fact I probably like more early stones songs than zep, but the stones are a bit of a joke now or the last 30 years and zep is still as relevant as ever, their music stands up in any era. either way I dont care, its just what people like. some like band a, some like band b, others hate them both.
     
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  15. oztennisfan

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    they will shed a few tears and agree, then write another depressed album about how a band from the 60s - 70s are a far greater band then they are...
     
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  16. vsbabolat

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    #66
  17. vsbabolat

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    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
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  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    common sense is back
     
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  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Barret could add a touch of psicodelism in the middle of so much progressivity.
     
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  20. Midaso240

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    Well,that's a matter of opinion. It can't be measured,it's not like tennis where you can say player x>player y because they have more slams,more titles blah blah. It's all subjective,so let's agree to disagree...
     
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  21. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    #71
  22. Anaconda

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    Ah nice, who you friends with btw? Check out a band called Cyan Marble. pretty trippy songs. Not enough experimental rock out their now tbh.




    Well, the thing is with At the drive In, they broke up as soon as they hit the big time. In fact, they got too mainstream for their own liking and decided to break up (One armed Scissor was a huge hit on MTV). The Mars Volta however, did not have coverage and were a very underground band. I think Deloused In the comatorium sold 1million albums - this was their best seller! They weren't out their per say, and in this day and age, rock is not with the masses unlike the 70's.





    But I don't understand your last part; ATDI/DT/TMV are good live in a different sense, certainly not bad live my any means.
     
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  23. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    No they are amazing live.

    My point is that you have to have great songs as well. A lot of the classic bands just had amazing songs that can touch more than just the core fan base. Good example - Pink Floyd , the original Mars Volta.
     
    #73
  24. Goosehead

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    The Beatles are not pop they are rock n roll...everybody knows they are no1.

    and The Smiths p1ss all over most of the bands on that list, and so do The Velvet Underground.
     
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  25. Midaso240

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    Finally someone who knows their music...
     
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  26. borg number one

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    You know your Led Zeppelin! What's wild is that right off the bat you can tell that fans were blown away. When they start playing, the crowd is loving it. Here they are in 1970 at Royal Albert Hall playing "How Many More Times".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8ZoHUBZI8

    See these "20 Things That Affirm That Led Zeppelin Is The Greatest Band": http://www.buzzfeed.com/spotify/20-things-that-affirm-led-zeppelin-is-the-greatest-band-to-e

     
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  27. borg number one

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    Yes of course. It is very subjective. It's an opinion shared by many rock and roll fans though, including plenty of groups that are out today. Yet even comparing tennis players is extremely subjective though. It's not as simple as counting titles there either (different eras, conditions, competition, priorities, etc.). As the the Beatles, I do think the Beatles were a rock band, but today they are considered to be more of a pop band by musicians/fans. If you go out on the internet, you'll see a lively debate with about half of the people calling them a rock band, while the other half considers them a pop band (especially given the direction rock went after the Beatles). They had their roots in 1950's rock and roll and they did play many different genres of music, including psychedelic rock by the late 1960's. They did have some great rock and roll songs, yet so many of their songs are pop. By contrast, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and even the Rolling Stones were all rock bands through and through in my opinion.
     
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  28. Midaso240

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    Make no mistake,the 60s was the decade that turned rock music on it's head. The Beatles,Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan have generally been considered as the most influential artists in rock music,along with maybe Elvis Presley and this probably won't ever change. What the Beatles were playing in 1963 was considered rock. They expanded the possibilities and altered the defintion of rock over their run.
     
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  29. borg number one

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    The 1960's did turned rock music on its head. As far as "this won't ever change", the same can be said of Led Zeppelin. Talk to most rock band today and ask them if they learned some Zeppelin songs well as a test of their abilities. There's a reason why, in the words of Jack Black, they have fans from President Obama to Paul Ryan and everyone in between lol. I think by most accounts, the Beatles were the most influential band of the 1960's while Led Zeppelin was the most influential band of the 1970's. Formed as a group of top musicians, they then made music that was out of this world. Jimmy Page said of critics, "I don't think they understood what we were doing"..."We kept pushing and pushing, trying to get over that horizon".

    This is a great Led Zeppelin interview with Charlie Rose.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjSvbb0FqOg (hear Page at 1:00)
     
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  30. SuperSpinner

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    Dark Side of the Moon > Led Zeppelin II
    The Wall > Led Zeppelin 4
    Wish You Were Here > Led Zeppelin 1
    Animals > Houses of the Holy
    Meddle ~ Physical Graffiti
     
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  31. dlk

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  32. Mike Bulgakov

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    Combining knowledge of blues music and ancient mythology with talented musicians at the right time...
     
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  33. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I disagree. Those LZ albums are stacked from top to bottom with great songs. In my opinion:

    Led Zeppelin 4, 3, 2, 1, Houses of the Holy, or Physical Graffiti (take your pick) > Wish You Were Here or Animals (take your pick)

    The Wall or Meddle ~ Led Zeppelin 1 (they had to get in the groove a bit after forming their supergroup but even then they were awesome right off the bat with "How Many More Times", "Communication Breakdown", and others).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF5QWo4y2tA

    Mike Bulgakov, that's a good way to describe that magical formula!

    DLK, that's a good one!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
    #83
  34. SuperSpinner

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    Opinions balance out and we're left with album sales.
     
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  35. Midaso240

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    Or you can go by acclaim,here are the most 'acclaimed' records of all time as worked out by compiling hundreds of lists,ratings etc...

    1 The Beatles Revolver 1966
    2 The Beach Boys Pet Sounds 1966
    3 Nirvana Nevermind 1991
    4 The Velvet Underground & Nico The Velvet Underground & Nico 1967
    5 The Beatles Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band 1967
    6 Marvin Gaye What's Going On 1971
    7 Bob Dylan Blonde on Blonde 1966
    8 The Rolling Stones Exile on Main St. 1972
    9 The Clash London Calling 1979
    10 Sex Pistols Never Mind the Bollocks - Here's the Sex Pistols 1977
    11 Bob Dylan Highway 61 Revisited 1965
    12 The Jimi Hendrix Experience Are You Experienced? 1967
    13 Radiohead OK Computer 1997
    14 The Beatles The Beatles ("White Album") 1968
    15 Van Morrison Astral Weeks 1968
    16 David Bowie The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars 1972
    17 Bruce Springsteen Born to Run 1975
    18 Public Enemy It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back 1988
    19 The Beatles Abbey Road 1969
    20 Patti Smith Horses 1975
    21 Pink Floyd The Dark Side of the Moon 1973
    22 The Jimi Hendrix Experience Electric Ladyland 1968
    23 Bob Dylan Blood on the Tracks 1975
    24 Television Marquee Moon 1977
    25 The Doors The Doors 1967
    26 Prince Sign 'O' the Times 1987
    27 The Smiths The Queen Is Dead 1986
    28 Michael Jackson Thriller 1982
    29 The Rolling Stones Beggars Banquet 1968
    30 The Beatles Rubber Soul 1965
    31 Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin IV 1971
    32 The Who Who's Next 1971
    33 Massive Attack Blue Lines 1991
    34 The Rolling Stones Let It Bleed 1969
    35 Miles Davis Kind of Blue 1959
    36 Talking Heads Remain in Light 1980
    37 Ramones Ramones 1976
    38 U2 The Joshua Tree 1987
    39 James Brown 'Live' at the Apollo 1963
    40 The Band The Band 1969
     
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  36. borg number one

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    Opinions do vary, but how do they just balance out?

    Album sales? That's such a flawed measure. Marketing/business strategy plays a huge role there in addition to sheer quality and talent. Even if you try and measure album sales, you are only left with "certified sales" in "available markets". Global sales? What countries? How are they counting albums sold? You have Michael Jackson, the Eagles, Shania Twain, Whitney Houston, and Led Zeppelin with albums at the top in terms of certified album sales. So in the end, album sales tell us very little about what exactly great music is. It's so subjective. There are some bands that are great and also fortunate on the business end of music. Some others seem to well suited for simple mass consumption only. Such bands/singers tend to sell the most albums, but again, it just isn't an effective way of assessing great music.
     
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  37. borg number one

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    Those are a lot of great albums Midas, but it all depends on who exactly is doing the praising (acclaiming) and how do you measure that? Critics disagree a lot when trying to rank albums. Jimmy Page said this of the music critics: "I don't think they had any idea of what we were doing. It just went completely over their heads. We were pushing, pushing, pushing, trying to get over that horizon".
     
    #87
  38. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Can't believe we're comparing Led Zeppelin to freaking Radiohead when the only comparison is b/w Zepp and Floyd.
    Tool is actually better than Radiohead and they're contemporaries.
     
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  39. SuperSpinner

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    Opinions balance out in the sense that you think LZ is better, another thinks PF is better and it goes back and forth. When you have two such great bands, it will pretty much balance out with respect to opinions.

    In this list below, PF has two albums in the top, LZ only 1. My bet is if we consider top 5 albums of both in their peak years, PF tops LZ.

     
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  40. borg number one

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    Flawed measure, but Certified Sales vs. Claimed Sales is a very different. Led Zeppelin has more total certified sales than Pink Floyd (considering all their albums, not just say top 5 only). The pop 5 albums from LZ could be Led Zep 4, Led Zeppelin 3, Houses of the Holy, Physical Graffiti, and Led Zeppelin 2, but it's tough to keep LZ 1 out of there as well. Of course, how do you pick just 5? I don't think PF has quite as much depth as LZ others differ. Some love the Stones or the Beatles, but I think Led Zeppelin's rock will be playing a century from now and beyond. I'm not as sure of many other bands/singers.
     
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  41. borg number one

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  42. SuperSpinner

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    Claimed sales are not just made up out of thin air, there are references for those numbers. In any case, going by claimed sales PF is quite a bit greater than LZ. I considered only top 5 because PF changed a lot in their composition ala with Barrett, and after Waters left. In between those times was really PF hitting their best strides and their most successful albums. Considering these albums and their claimed sales, they surpass LZ.

    As for your last statement about LZ playing a century from now, totally disagree. In fact, that PF had the longest run on the billboard charts is a testament to the unlikely truth of that statement.
     
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  43. Midaso240

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    It's off here http://acclaimedmusic.net/. You can read about the methods they use. As it says,there is no final word on the best music,however that site gives the general opinion of music critics. Another site I like looking at is rateyourmusic,which gives the general opinion of music listeners. Put it this way,if I don't like an album but it is rated highly by critics/listeners,I'm much more likely to give it that extra benefit of another listen than one that isn't...
     
    #93
  44. borg number one

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    I'm the same way. There's a lot of great music out there and sometimes with bands like REM and U2, they got the attention of a lot of people due to critical acclaim. Thanks for the list.
     
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  45. borg number one

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    I'm not saying that they are just made out of this air, yet claimed sales may not be as accurate as certified sales. See this site that uses certified sales:

    http://www.beatzenith.com/the_rolling_stones/rssalzcerts.htm

    It's true that PF has more claimed sales by some, per sites I've seen, while LZ has greater certified sales than PF.

    Led Zeppelin has had greater lasting impact and they have greater range than Floyd. They can play very hard rock, yet they also made so many beautiful and haunting songs as well. Pink Floyd is also talented, but no group can match the combined talents of Jimmy Page (guitar), Robert Plant (singer), John Bonham (drums), and John Paul Jones (bass). Each is extremely acclaimed. Jimmy Page is one of greatest rock guitarists, John Paul Jones is amazing, as is John Bonham and Robert Plant. Yet, it's not just PF. No other rock band has had four musicians as great as those four and it's not close. That's part of "what made Zeppelin unreachable".

    Hear other musicians discuss them here, when they were #1 on this VH1 list of hard rock bands.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQI3RoCsaBM

    Aerosmith inducts Led Zeppelin into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (...they were doing unplugged long before it was the cool thing to do...Aerosmith wouldn't exist in it's present incarnation without Led Zeppelin's continuing influence.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y4ING_Z68I
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
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  46. SuperSpinner

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    Individually, I agree that LZ members are more talented on instruments than PF. But the production of a band is not only the instrumentals. It's also song writing and creativity. This is where PF vastly outshines LZ. None of LZ songs have any depth compared to PF. Not saying LZ didn't have depth, but it is less than PF. They both wrote about complex subjects, but PF was much more humanistic and philosophical. The lyrics far outshine LZ.

    I don't see how LZ have had more a lasting impact than PF when the data clearly indicates otherwise. PF was on the billboard charts for almost 15 years. This is the world record. LZ was not and does not have any such record. That is the only data point we have for lasting impact. All else is opinion and again, this balances out. In other words you say LZ has had a more lasting impact, I say PF. Balanced. All we have left are the data.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
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  47. SuperSpinner

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    Wow LZ has greater range than PF?????? Ludicrous. Compare the DSOFTM to the Wall. Nothing LZ has approaches the range difference between those two albums. It's like two completely different groups.
     
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  48. borg number one

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    These videos say so much about Led Zeppelin's lasting impact Superspinner. Hear Aerosmith, Heart, Henry Rollins, Billy Corbin (Smashing Pumpkins). Musicians revere Led Zeppelin still for good reason. Led Zeppelin's stronger in the hard rock department, but they also have some beautiful melodies, which is why I consider them to have greater range than Pink Floyd.

    Led Zeppelin was rated #1 on this VH1 list of hard rock bands.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQI3RoCsaBM

    Aerosmith inducts Led Zeppelin into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y4ING_Z68I

    See the lyrics from Battle of Evermore. Beautiful stuff and it wasn't even one of their bigger hit songs.

    Their stellar songwriting and creativity is unmistakable. How many bands write rock songs like this? None. This is pure poetry.

    Battle of Evermore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGAKeHQUx-U
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
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  49. SuperSpinner

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    I know the battle of evermore, it's a good song. But its lyrics don't compare for example to Dogs, Time or Wish You Were Here. Nothing can hold a candlestick to them. Again, I'm not saying LZ isn't a good band and that they aren't revered. But all you've said is easily countered by PF being a better band and also being revered and influential. PF also had hard rock, but also space rock as well as wonderful melodies, thus they are higher than LZ. Again you see, anything you say is countered by other opinions. Which is why subjective opinions become meaningless. They are anecdotes so to speak. And what are we left with?

    PF was objectively longer on the billboard charts than LZ. No ifs ands or buts. It's a fact and world record. LZ cannot compete at this level with PF. Therefore PF > LZ. PF has greater claimed album sales.

    Additionally, looking at cultural impact on people who are not specialists in either PF or LZ - I mean people who don't know anything about them except that they existed. The only song of LZ that has had so much cultural impact is Stairway to Heaven, sometimes regarded as the greatest song of all time, subjectively. But in this domain PF far outpaces LZ. More people have heard of Money, Another Brick in the Wall, Wish You Were Here and Comfortably Numb than any of LZ songs except Stairway.
     
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  50. SuperSpinner

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    It's also well known that Led Zeppelin plagiarized some of their songs.
     

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