what made that Zeppelin unreachable

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by kiki, Feb 1, 2014.

?

The greatest of all time bands is?

Poll closed Mar 3, 2014.
  1. Led Zeppelin

    10 vote(s)
    23.8%
  2. Pink Floyd

    14 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. The Who

    3 vote(s)
    7.1%
  4. Black Sabbath

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Deep Purple

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  7. Rush

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  8. AC DC

    2 vote(s)
    4.8%
  9. Rolling Stones

    6 vote(s)
    14.3%
  10. Queen

    5 vote(s)
    11.9%
  1. SuperSpinner

    SuperSpinner Rookie

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    Led Zeppelin
    Now THIS is a band that has pulled some seriously cold-hearted theft in their time. As with many early rock artists who founded their love of guitars tuning in to black blues artists on the radio, Jimmy Page became a master at "re-imagining" certain blues riffs as his own. Only two tracks from Zeppelin's self-titled debut album were 100% original creations, as far as the world knows - that's the opening track "Good Times, Bad Times" and "Your Time Is Gonna Come". All the others are a mish-mash of older tracks written by musicians who were too poor to fight the might of Zeppelin's lawyers.
     
  2. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Those are great songs SuperSpinner, but how are the lyrics superior to Zeppelin lyrics? It's not measurable. That's opinion of course. There are the masses and then people in the know. So, again, album sales and even weeks on the chart are a very different thing, otherwise we'd be discussing the greatness of the Bee Gees, Elton John, and Shania Twain instead, because they all have albums that sold as much or more than any PF or LZ album. I've heard so many more current musicians and also greats from the 80's, 90's and beyond discuss the impact of Led Zeppelin on them personally..Deep Purple, Heart, Smashing Pumpkins and Aerosmith, would all choose LZ over PF. Why? Which bands would be in the PF camp instead? Did you hear those musicians in the video? Why isn't PF honored at the Kennedy Center and the White House these days or played nearly as much on classical rock stations here in the U.S.? That's not just my sole opinion. Which bands can you cite that refer to PF as being the most influential rock band? It's certainly not just my opinion I'm relying on. Pink Floyd is a great rock band, but Led Zeppelin was even better. They reached heights that are not reachable by any band most likely. Maybe in another 50 years there will be a band with as much impact on rock and roll, but it doesn't look very likely.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQI3RoCsaBM

    Don't take my word for it though, Billy Corbin of the Smashing Pumpkins said it well in the video:

    That's a description of what made Led Zeppelin unreachable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  3. SuperSpinner

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    Well that's my point isn't it? PF lyrics are superior to LZ only because I say so. That was my point. It's merely my opinion as it is your opinion that LZ's are superior (at least the ones they actually wrote!).

    None of Bee Gees, Elton John, and Shania Twain have greater claimed album sales than DSOFTM. Only Michael Jackson's Thriller surpasses DSOFTM.

    They all choose LZ over PF for the same reason celebrities endlessly and nauseatingly praise their co-stars. It's just propaganda. If they were doing a special on LZ, of course those people are gonna heap praise on them.

    PF honored? I didn't see LZ at the fall of the Berlin Wall, one the most important events in the history of the world. Nothing LZ did surpasses that.

    LZ loses a lot of credibility for all of the plagiarism cases against them, many of which they lost and paid fines for.
     
  4. SuperSpinner

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    Bands who cite Pink Floyd as an influence include: U2, Queen, Tool, Radiohead, Kraftwerk, Marillion, Queensrÿche, Nine Inch Nails, the Orb and the Smashing Pumpkins.

    Looks like Smashing Pumpkins are a bit whory, no? Listen all of that praise is just that, accolades for your own kind. In my book it doesn't mean much. I care more about numbers and objective facts. No band in the history of music has spent more time on the billboard 200 charts.
     
  5. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Led Zeppelin was not original somehow? They took blues and brought it back into rock, which was genius and very original. They loved all kinds of music too. What cases did they "pay fines for"? That's different than settling a case to avoid protracted litigation. They were influenced heavily by early blues, there's no doubt about it. Did you hear Aerosmith in that video for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y4ING_Z68I

    That's not just propaganda, but deep, heartfelt appreciation for what Led Zeppelin meant to that band. (Foo Fighters is yet another example). Bands like Dream Theater and Radiohead may be bigger fans of PF, but you see that they play a very different band of music than the bands I'm citing as LZ fans. Most band would do almost anything to have the credibility of Led Zeppelin. Time on the charts? That's not much different than looking at album sales in my book. It's an indication of influence, yes, but it will never give you definitive answers. We are comparing different works of art here, so does one like Da Vinci or Van Gogh and why exactly? That's akin to this rock and roll debate. You can try and discredit Corbin somehow, but everything he says here is accurate.

    Led Zeppelin could play folk music, rock, blues, country, Indian classical influenced music, even psychedelic rock (PF like). How is Pink Floyd more diverse than that? Led Zeppelin is much more than the songs you tend to hear on the radio all the time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  6. SuperSpinner

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    It's not original if you copy. They did copy. They did not give credit. They lied. They are thieves. They settled because they were liable. This did not happen once. This has happened over 10 times! I repeat, they are plagiarists.

    On Led Zeppelin's album Led Zeppelin II (1969), parts of the song "Bring It On Home" were COPIED from Sonny Boy Williamson's 1963 recording of "Bring It On Home," written by Willie Dixon.

    In 1972, Arc Music, the publishing arm of Chess Records, brought a lawsuit against Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement over "Bring It On Home" and "The Lemon Song"; the case was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum

    Led Zeppelin's song "Whole Lotta Love" contained lyrics that were derivative of Willie Dixon's 1962 song "You Need Love." In 1985, Dixon filed a copyright infringement suit, resulting in an out-of-court settlement. Later pressings of Led Zeppelin II credit Dixon as co-writer.


    ^^^ THIS is the damning proof. They STOLE. Otherwise there would be no reason to change the credit to the song.

    Led Zeppelin also paid a settlement to the publisher of Ritchie Valens' song "Ooh! My Head" over "Boogie with Stu" (from their album Physical Graffiti) which borrowed heavily from Valens' song

    Please don't tell me you will defend all of that. It's pathetic #1 that they copied, but then the gall to NOT want to give credit where credit was due AND for them fighting all of these things in court. It happens once, ok? But when it happens 10 times, sorry but there is a pattern and for that LZ is infinitely lower than PF.

    That's your opinion. It's not true.

    In other words, the only objective data :). Yes we are comparing art. And my point from the start is that opinions get washed out from either side. What were are left with are the objective data and the facts. The objective data indicate PF has more claimed album sales. They spent longer time on the album charts, not only more than LZ, but any band in the history of music. Finally, the facts indicate that LZ plagiarized multiple times and had to pay undisclosed sums multiple times. With all of that data: PF>>>>>LZ.

    End of story.
     
  7. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    When you've run out of arguments Superspinner, you pull the "plagiarism" card and basically say that Led Zeppelin was cheating. You don't sound like a Led Zeppelin fan at all. Meanwhile, I'm actually a big fan of PF as well. They are easily one of my favorite rock bands. You are right back to your argument about claimed sales as well. We've already established that album sales are just that, album sales. The Beatles borrowed a LOT, as did Rolling Stones, and so many others. Yet, all were still original, as was Led Zeppelin.
     
  8. SuperSpinner

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    I didn't run out of arguments at all. Even without the Plagiarism I think I made more of a case for PF than you did for LZ. All you did was give anecdotal evidence and I countered with my own. In the end the objective data show PF outshined LZ. On top of that you add plagiarism and that seals the deal.

    In any case, I do like LZ. On my iphone, the most tracks are by the Beatles, followed by PF, followed by LZ. I like many of their songs very much, but their best songs do not compare to PF for me at least. Yes many bands borrowed a lot, but LZ outright stole. IF you deny that, then you are just a fangirl.
     
  9. SuperSpinner

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    p.s. PF never plagiarized. I imagine they borrowed too, like all, but not outright cheating followed by galling denial. That is really sad behavior by LZ.
     
  10. oztennisfan

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  11. Algo

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    Moronic fans killed me Nadal, don't kill PF or LZ please.
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    the difference between both bands, as this thread goes, is that while LZ supporters appreciate PF art, PF fans cannot stand LZ.That is a sign that LZ doesn´t leave anybody undifferent, but rather bitter, defensive and, at the end, unsecure.

    Won battle.
     
  13. Rattler

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    Um ever heard Jeff Becks Truth?....seems that this was more common than not with the English Blues based rock bands.
     
  14. Rattler

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    The Stones did this as well....they even had the gaul to credit themselves (Jagger Richards) with Love In Vain
     
  15. Rattler

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    Pink Floyd was not at the "fall of the Berlin Wall.". Roger Waters played a concert of Pink Floyd's "The Wall" there in '90 or '91...Berlin Wall came down in fall of '89. Pink Floyd the band actually cracked on him for doing so, at the time.


    Edit concert was held in July '90
     
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  16. borg number one

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    I posted this in the other thread. To call Led Zeppelin "unoriginal" strains the limits of credulity. Led Zeppelin brought blues back to rock and roll in their own way. They were incredibly innovative. So much so that their music stands the test of time. Superspinner your argument is basically that if two people have differing opinions on great music, check the album sales to see who is more right? Okay, let's use that logic. I say Led Zeppelin and someone else says Michael Jackson. Well, I guess that other person is right because MJ has more albums sold. One HUGE flaw in that argument is that album sales have very little to do with quality/great music. The other huge issue is that Superspinner has admitted that LZ may have actually sold more albums in total than PF. Superspinner then went to the "top 5 albums" concept instead.

     
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  17. Steady Eddy

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    Very true. LZ wasn't about being original. They did covers of other people songs. But their covers were the best.

    I feel that Page carried Led Zeppelin. Nobody cares about the drummer or the bass. Page and Plant seemed close, but I'm sure Page would have made a superstar band out of a different vocalist.
     
  18. SuperSpinner

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    Actually, I wasn't talking about doing covers. I was talking about outright stealing other people's lyrics and music and then calling it your own. And then defending that theft in court to the point of quashing others who weren't able to defend their rights. It's actually criminal on LZ's part, and very shameful. How can a band be called so great when much of their work was plagiarized.
     
  19. Steady Eddy

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    That's a fair point. Zeppelin was talented, but as people they were kind of sleazy.
     
  20. borg number one

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    What made Led Zeppelin the greatest rock band around and probably ever will be was not just their musical talent and skill. They were so creative and original. That's why they had such a big impact when they began and why that influence continues to this day. There songs were not stolen or plagiarized, or simply covered. Although they did do some covers and they definitely borrowed some lyrics and sounds that they heard while listening to a ton of music. They were spending weeks together writing and creating music of the highest order, so I'm sure songs started to flow into one another. Led Zeppelin members were music aficionados. They wanted to push the envelope musically in as many directions as possible, and they had blues influence, country influence, and even eastern musical influences (Black Mountain Side and Kashmir). Page was great, but a big reason for Led Zeppelin's greatness was that on top of a superb guitarist, you had such a great drummer, splendid bass player, and great vocalist. Why do you think Page picked those guys? They got so good as they created music together and as Page said "we were pushing and pushing, trying to get over that horizon". They simply would not settle for one style, category, or even any preconceived limitations on their music or style. They didn't care what folks said or thought. They just knew they were the best band on the planet and they went out and proved it on a nightly basis.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ-s7dB6T5k (Led Zeppelin 1)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfR_HWMzgyc&list=PL1UGaOG5jJjgLg4GENQVvvB9CTfWjTl2m

    Who were they "copying" here after listening to these songs and how about that range?

    So, they listened to a lot of old American Blues especially and here were these British guys in the 60's listening to a lot of American Blues from as early as the 20th century. Rock stars in general are influenced by the music they listen to and it inspires them. They then have to actually write lyrics, music and then play these songs that are not covers. Even with a cover, a band has to come up with its own rendition. So, anyone go through the list and point out plagiarized lyrics or covers and/or play those songs and also play the original. If you can't do that or don't well statements as to what Led Zeppelin copied are baseless at best. Different people tend to like different rock bands the best, whether it's Led Zeppelin or another band whether it's the Eagles, U2, you name it. Hammer of the Gods is a great book on the band, if you haven't read it as a fan. Again, among these lyrics below what exactly was simply copied and from whom?

    I'll have to listen to No Quarter... This is just musical genius right here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNc8lngG8xU
     
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  21. SuperSpinner

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    Well for one in that list, Dazed and Confused was stolen.

    On June 28, 2010, Jake Holmes at long last sued Jimmy Page for plagiarizing the song “Dazed and Confused.” Rather than dragging the case through the courts, it appears they have settled out of court.

    “Dazed and Confused” was written by Jake Holmes and included on his 1967 album The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes.


    In fact, the path that leads from Holmes to Page is very well known. As documented by Perfect Sound Forever magazine, Holmes opened for Page's then-band, the Yardbirds, at a Greenwich Village gig in August 1967. "That was the infamous moment of my life when Dazed and Confused fell into the loving arms and hands of Jimmy Page," Holmes recalled in an interview with Will Shade. Yardbirds drummer Jim McCarty described going to a record shop the next day to buy a copy of Holmes's album. "We decided to do a version," he said. "We worked it out together with Jimmy contributing the guitar riffs in the middle."

    When the Yardbirds broke up in 1968, Page brought the song to his new band, releasing it on Led Zeppelin's self- titled first album. But although Holmes's contribution to the tune is often commented upon Page is credited as the track's sole songwriter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  22. borg number one

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  23. SuperSpinner

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    Posting pics of LZ doesn't change the fact that they are a group of thieves. At some point you have to pull your head out of the sand and accept truth.
     
  24. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I know all about Led Zeppelin SuperSpinner. You may want to listen to some Led Zeppelin songs instead of worrying about whether they weren't "original".
    A group of thieves? That's a bit rich. Here's the wiki info on the origins and making of "Dazed and Confused". I think that Page should have given more credit to Holmes, yet this kind of musical sharing goes on all the time, and it happened a LOT during that time especially as so much new music was being created, with different styles emerging and a big shift from the music of the 1950's and early 1960's. You see how they worked together quite a bit in this excerpt.

     
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  25. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  26. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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  27. Midaso240

    Midaso240 Hall of Fame

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    I don't know,I just still don't think of Led Zep as a top tier band in history. For me,the greatest are the Beatles,Rolling Stones,The Who,The Beach Boys,The Kinks,The Byrds. I'd say all of them had 100 really good songs,easy. Not many bands can compete with that...
     
  28. droliver

    droliver Semi-Pro

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    You're kidding right? Queen was one of the biggest live acts in the world for 20 years, and was pretty much the consensus best live act @ Live Aid which had all the heavy hitters of the day performing. Go find that performance on youtube from Wembley stadium. They had 120,000+ eating from their hand. There really isn't anyone that owned a stadium crowd like Freddy Mercury in the history of rock.
     
  29. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I'd put the Rolling Stones and the Who in the same general realm as Led Zeppelin, along with Pink Floyd. Then you have bands like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. I think the Beach Boys and the Byrds are in a different lighter category, definitely not hard rock. I do like the Kinks a lot too, but they weren't anywhere near as heavy as Led Zeppelin or some of those other bands. The Kinks had some great songs, but again, just look at that list of songs off of just 6 LZ albums (one double album). Those are great songs top to bottom on album after album, and very diverse too. Not many bands can compete with that either, even if they generate 150 songs that are all about 3 minutes long. Led Zeppelin was much different, with so many songs stretching to 8 mins, or 10 minutes plus, especially live.
     
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  30. droliver

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    Page's playing is the total opposite of smooth or technical most of the time. He's kind of choppy and sloppy (in a good way) when he plays. A lot of bursts and staccato with stray notes galore.

    Smooth playing would be someone more like Kirk Hammett (Metallica) or one of the many studio hands that performed with Steely Dan (Elliot Easton, Larry Carlton). It's a much more precise style of play. Page was more a primitive vibe.
     
  31. Midaso240

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    The Kinks pretty much invented heavy metal.
    [​IMG]
     
  32. borg number one

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    It is "choppy and sloppy" in a good way at times isn't it? These are some interesting clips here with Page playing in recent years!

    "For Your Life" played for the first time live by Led Zeppelin at the O2 Arena in 2007. Hear Page play on this solo.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cIRv5MpUQM ("This is a first adventure with this song...". They play it for the first time live here.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ani84NBSA0c (Kashmir chords with Jimmy Page, Jack White, and the Edge!)
     
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  33. Midaso240

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    Well,for me The Who - Who's Next is probably the best rock album ever. You can debate they're on a similar level to Led Zep(I'd still put them ahead and I think Moon is the best drummer ever and Daltrey is better than Plant). The Rolling Stones are definitely another level though.
    12x5
    The Rolling Stones,Now!
    Out Of Our Heads
    Aftermath
    Between The Buttons
    Get Yer Ya-Yas Out(note Led Zep never had a 'classic' live album like the Who and the Stones did)
    Let It Bleed
    Beggar's Banquet
    Sticky Fingers
    Exile On Main Street
    Goat's Head Soup
    Black And Blue
    Some Girls

    All quality stuff...
     
  34. droliver

    droliver Semi-Pro

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    Pink Floyd, like most prog-rock, hasn't aged well.

    Their kind of music, where you really have to listen to songs in the context of the album, isn't going to have the staying power of the iconic single. It's why they can't ever be in the Stones, The Who, U2, or Beatles category.

    They're clearly going to be less and less influential over time I think, with a gradual fall in these subjective GOAT band or album rankings. "Dark Side of the Moon" was more a pop phenomena rather then a reflection of great music
     
  35. borg number one

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    The Kinks were very influential and talented and I agree that they were heavy for that time. All Day and All of the Night..I love some of their songs...Destroyer was a great song from about 1979 I think and of course You Really Got Me and others. I could go with rock for the Kinks definitely but not hard rock and not heavy metal certainly wouldn't you agree? They did influence the direction of rock music by the mid-1960's, no doubt about that, but Led Zeppelin is widely seen as the band that really kicked off the hard rock/heavy metal movement in music. As far as a classic live album, The Song Remains the Same is a classic album and it's a really interesting movie as well (recorded at New York's Madison Square Garden). So how do we define a classic live album then? The Rolling Stones are great and so are the Who, but neither appealed to me the way Led Zeppelin has for years now. I keep discovering subtle new things in Led Zeppelin songs I've listened to so many times. Many of their songs are very nuanced and rich in that you have unexpected drums, and guitar rhythms, bass lines in just the right spot. The end of The Rain Song is a good example of that. Hear the last minute of that!
     
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  36. droliver

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    I love Led Zeppelin and they were a total original for the time in where they took the music and aesthetics of rock music. Page was so good at writing the great hook (like "The Ocean") and just coming up with things that sound cool (the chords progression of "Kashmir").

    He was not one of the "best" soloists though technique wise and some of what he'd do live was just kind of odd and self-indulgent at times to me. Certainly peers like Jeff Beck, Peter Green, and Richard Thompson were/are better players. Led Zeppelin just had this great sum of it's parts that left such a staggering amount of really good songs
     
  37. droliver

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    The Kinks had a very influential, but brief run compared to the rest of the rock royalty of the British invasion. They've got some real cool songs, but their commercial and creative spark went out fairly quickly.
     
  38. borg number one

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    Yes, agreed. They did take rock music and rock style in a whole new direction. I think Page's guitar mind may have exceeded those guitar hands at times. Yet sometimes when he is doing his thing with a solo, he can really be quite good technically too. He's very gifted. That's my general take on him on guitar. He's a musical mastermind.

    [​IMG]

    Led Zeppelin - Bron Yr Aur Recordings (Full Session, 1970)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usn0GfH4tic

     
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  39. Midaso240

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    Brief run? They didn't record anything bad until the early-mid 70s...
     
  40. borg number one

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  41. Rattler

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    Y'all know that the guitar riff on this song has long been the subject of speculation...pretty widely held belief that Jimmy Page, yes Jimmy Page who was a very in demand recording session musician at the time and present at this recording,..,widely held belief that Jimmy Page played the riff on the origonal recording of this song.....


    Just to further muddy the waters here a bit.
     
  42. Rattler

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    Wow, you really hate Zeppelin don't you...

    Oh well, after reading your posts in this thread, and the basis for your argument, you seem to be railing against the tide.
     
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    whaaat???

    The end of the day fact that made LZ the greatest band in history IS THE MIXTURE OF THE ALL 4 MEMBERS TALENT.

    Do you know that the biggest ever band BROKE UP just because that " meaningless drummer" such as you call him, died? If he was of such non importance, why didn´t Page and Plant pick another one, just LIKE THE WHO DID when Moon died?

    Because they went by my introductory words to this post.They knew he was unreplacable and, mind you, if it had been JPJ or any other of the remaining two, they´d have done exactly the same.

    Yes, Page is one of the best, if not the best ever lead guitars, Plant is the most powerful and varied solist in the history of R&R...but Led Zeppelin was far bigger than them.And it was far bigger because of JPJ and Bonzo.
     
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    DELETED POST
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    " I´m just a traveler of both time and space" (Kashmir)
     
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    A textbook note:

    1/Black Sabbath, the most influential and origin of Heavy Methal.They were huge for years; sometimes simplistic but their hard core fans are the most loyal.

    2/Yes.If the concept of superband has ever worked in history, look no further than them.Too eclectic talents that produced some of the best ever music heard.And, yes, for that very same reason, they blew it off some other times.But there´s never been a band with Anderson,Brufford,Wakeman,Squire and Howe in the line up.
     
  47. dParis

    dParis Hall of Fame

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    Did you read this somewhere? It sounds like the words of a resentful rock critic. It's borderline absurd. With this line of thought you can put aside Bach in favor of Ring Around the Rosie.
     
  48. SuperSpinner

    SuperSpinner Rookie

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    I know it may sounds like I hate them based on all my points, but actually that couldn't be further from the truth. I really do like LZ despite my posts, they are in my top 10 bands. I was just posting all of that to counter blind fangirl worship. I can't stand people who don't acknowledge the truth.
     
  49. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    The truth Superspinner? Anymore proof that LZ stole their songs and weren't "original" or that they plagiarized? We've looked at Dazed and Confused. What other lyrics and songs and how? Let's see what you are talking about. If you're implying that somehow Led Zeppelin just wasn't talented enough to make their own music, there just is no proof of that. Were they hugely influenced by American Blues music? Absolutely.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  50. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Stairway to Heaven

    Live at Madison Square Garden in 1973

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q7Vr3yQYWQ

    Here's a description of the songwriting and musicianship involved with the song.



    [​IMG]
     

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