What player in history played the highest level of tennis for one match?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I keep reading in the General Pro Player Discussion about which player (and they give choices) is the best during what they like to call God mode. Now I believe God mode is kind of term that is a little too much for me but it does bring out an argument they has gone on in tennis for ages now, who is the best player ever when playing at their best?

    It's really a tough question because to me playing at an almost invincible level means their are no weaknesses for your opponent to exploit. If a player A is invincible against player B and yet player C defeats player A all the time because player A has a backhand weakness player C can take advantage of, is that really a level where player A is invincible? Of course not.

    To me a truly high unbeatable level of play is when NO PLAYER can exploit any weakness in a player.

    Some of the greats in past history that have been mentioned have been Laver, McEnroe, Gonzalez, Tilden, Vines, Hoad, Borg, Connors for example. Some lesser players mentioned as invincible at their best have been Frank Kovacs, Henri Leconte, Richard Norris Williams and Arthur Ashe.

    And of course the recent greats of the last twenty years or so that won't be mentioned because you know the names already. Obviously there won't be a poll because you know who wins all polls.

    Guys like Bobby Riggs have picked Pancho Gonzalez if there was a tournament where you had to win or the player would die. Kramer thought Vines had the highest level at his best as did Budge.

    Yet Riggs mentioned Kovacs as incredible at his best. Rosewall mentioned in so many words that Laver at his best was the best. Many have mentioned John McEnroe especially in 1984. Vines thought Richard Norris Williams was incredible at his best. Williams apparently could take big serves on the rise and put the returns away. Hoad could reach incredible streaks and even Gonzalez feared him.

    So who do all of you think is perhaps the best at their top level? Please discuss reasonably and let's NOT have this discussion get into another past versus present debate.

    And no I'm not going to say Vince Spadea. We'll save that for the Spadea thread. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
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  2. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Three women come to mind. Navratilova, Graf and Serena. All reached pinnacles in flawless tennis performance no one else has.
     
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  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    This is definitely an old topic in tennis, even if the term "God mode" is new. Hoad and Vines are two names I've heard ever since I got into tennis, as candidates for playing "unbeatable" tennis when they were in the zone.

    And both of those men were powerful players who could make an opponent look helpless, certainly on a fast court. But what about on clay? Was Vines, even on a day when he walked onto the court feeling his absolute best, really unbeatable on clay? I doubt it very much, because a "God-mode" on a slow court with long rallies would probably come from a player who doesn't make any unecessary errors and is difficult to force into errors. Vines wasn't that sort of player.

    A lot of the players that were regarded in their time as playing God-like tennis were fast-court players who were being praised for performances on fast courts. Would you really want Pancho or McEnroe to play for your life on a slow wet court at Roland Garros against any claycourter that has ever lived?

    Back in '75 when Orantes slow-balled Connors at the USO, Bill Talbert recalled how Sidney Wood beat Vines on a grasscourt with tactics similar to the ones Orantes used.

    I looked up the match a while ago and I'll quote at length from the New York Times report, because I think it bring up a lot of issues around the whole question of high level of play ("God mode").

    That's Danzig, by the way.
     
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  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Those are great choices, but I was going to mention Mandlikova, simply for the reason that people often said that when she was on her game, even Navratilova could do nothing. Now whether that's really true is something else -- especially over the course of a long match. But that's a thing you often heard said about her.
     
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  5. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    I'm going to go with Sampras US Open 95. I'm sure people will disagree, and tell me how great the 2006 US Open was, but that's my pick I am going with.
    Reason being that Agassi was playing unbelievable tennis all summer and could not lose a hardcourt match, he was cleaning up everything in sight, and in the biggest HC match of the year, he played Pete, he played great but still lost, and we now know that because of this loss, Agassi entered a pretty significant valley in his career, which led him to Meth hah.

    It may not be the single highest level ever, but it had to be significantly high level if it caused another all time great to go into a downward spiral, which concluded with resorting to drugs haha
     
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  6. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    McEnroe W 84, forgetaboutit
     
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  7. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I think that is true, and Martina could not stop it - but I think Graf could have! (terrible matchup) its also true that the above could motivate and inspire themselves to produce that pinnacle. Hana could not plan when or for how long. it could be at the US Open final or the Oklahoma open QF.
     
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  8. joe sch

    joe sch Hall of Fame

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    Surely double (and triple) bagels should be considered.

    This beating was very impressive:

    Roger Federer bt Gaston Gaudio (2005)
    Federer posted the first-ever 6-0, 6-0 score line in the history of the men’s year-end championships in Shanghai, an event which goes back to the first Masters held in New York in 1970. It was also Feds first double bagel of his career. After the 50-minute mauling Gaudio said: “I think I was playing against a guy who’s the best in history and on a surface that he’s so much better than me. There’s not much to say, sometimes this happens, and it happened to me today. It happens in life, but there are things a little bit worse than this.” Yeah, like scraping about on the Challenger tour after youve won a Grand Slam title

    Here are some other impressive multi bagles:

    http://www.**********.net/on-tour/tennis-features/428577/top_ten_double_and_triple_bagels.html
     
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  9. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    There will always be the 1985 US Open
     
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  10. Crazy man

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    From what I've seen (I don't have the knowledge and age as other do in this section) I'd say Safin's demolition of Sampras at the US Open was the highest level of tennis in one match from a single person. Especially given the guy who got crushed was the superior player. This wasn't some Federer owning Gaudio display where the superior play put on a show; This was an angry underdog kid who took down, what most considered the greatest ever but made it look easy.
     
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  11. Lendl

    Lendl Semi-Pro

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    Krajicek '96 Wimbledon?
     
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  12. Rock Strongo

    Rock Strongo Legend

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    How about Edberg dismantling Courier at the '91 US Open? Really, it was just a masterclass in how to beat a baseliner.
     
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  13. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I'm not convinced that Serena's best was better than Venus' best. But, IMO, it is one of them, or perhaps Seles. At her best, Seles was a steam roller.
     
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  14. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I can see that or any of those three.

    One of my favorite matches the Navratilova/Graf Wimbledon final in 1988. The last two sets were almost flawlessly played by Graf. It was amazing play. Graf hit the best backhand returns that I've ever seen her hit.

    Navratilova played a super match in defeating Evert to win her first French Open.
     
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  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It was always funny in those days. Navratilova was by far the best player in the world. In just about any match the outcome depended on how Navratilova played. If she played well she won and usually very easily.

    But with Mandlikova it was different. Everything depended on what Hana did because she was the more explosive player with more weapons. If Hana was on she would win against Navratilova and I think even Martina knew that.


    Not only did Edberg dismantle Courier but he made it seem so ridiculously easy.
     
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  16. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Nadal's dismantling of Federer in the 2008 FO final. Or perhaps Pete Sampras' win over Agassi in the 1999 W final. That was an amazing match.
     
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  17. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I agree 100%. McEnroe beat an on-form Connors in the final 6-1, 6-1, 6-2. It was a masterful performance and at the top of my list.

    Right behind that is Edberg's demolition of Jim Courier in the '91 US Open final 6-2, 6-4, 6-0.

    What strikes me about both performances was both men, Edberg & McEnroe, were just plain in a daze while they played. They were truly zoned on the day.
     
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  18. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    The court was so large and the court opened up so magnificantly. A dream, of simple fantasy, that was reality. JMac had to fade away.
     
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  19. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    There is no absolute measure to judge a performance in tennis, no time clock, no measure band. Scorelines are a bit depending on the ability of the other player, especially his serve quality. Its much easier to win a bagle set against a (relative) weak serve. Connors for instance lost at Wim to some players quite big with 1-6 scores, against Ashe, Borg and against McEnroe, and even Curren. Mac himself said after the wim final 1984, that the score would have been closer against a bigger server like Lendl or Curren. Against players like Austin, Rosewall, Connors or Hewitt, who could be overwhelmed on their serves, it was and is easier to score big wins than against servers like Vines, Newcombe or Sampras, especially on fast courts. Among the matches i remember, where both players played very well, were the Frankfurt resp. Hannover finals of Stich-Sampras or Sampras-Becker.
     
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  20. morten

    morten Hall of Fame

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    i agree......
     
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  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hoad and Vines, specially Lew had the highest margin vs opposition at his peak.Even a GOAT candidate like Gonzales has said so.Laver and in a lesser degree, Sampras and Federer would be also untouchable at their prime.On clay, nobody could have beaten prime Borg on a 5 sets match.So, those are the players I consider almost unbeatable ( oh¡ and 1984 JMac...)
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No, Court, prime Evert on clay and peakest and consistent Hana Mandlikova are just as good.Bueno,Connolly,Lenglen and Wills are in the very same league too.King,Hingis, Sharapova and Henin just a bit lower, so is Seles.Just MHO
     
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  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True... and 1981 RG ( and 1980 USO till the finals)
     
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  24. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I forgot to mention Evonne Goolagong when she's at her best as a possibility for the women.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbHFchcZmjU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNySACbrp-s
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
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  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    #25
  26. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Of the above, my vote is with Court for this category. I'll think about EVert for surface specific, but that annilation Martina did twice in '84, suggests the pivotal difference this category depicts. Its not about best day/in out consistency its about how high they ever got to the peak of the mountain. Evert was mentally compromised after two years of subjegation, but Martina really was the terminator on every surface, every opponent in 1984. She planted the flag on Mt Everest. Its exactly what this thread is about. I am not sure Evert ever quite did that in a match or period of matches, where every shot and spin had gold trimmings, despite some overwhelming performances that each potential GOAT had. Chris was not, at her core, about incandescence.
     
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  27. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, that was a good one: 6-2, 6-4, 6-0.

    Or Mac in the 1984 Wimbledon final over Connors: 6-1, 6-1, 6-2.
     
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  28. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    In one match? A couple for the women that come to mind:

    Pierce def Graf 1994 French SF 62 62 - Pierce was on fire the entire match, she even made Graf's forehand look pathetic for periods in that match. Its a shame she didn't win the final after the way she pummeled Steffi.

    Sharapova def Henin 2008 Australian QF 64 60 - Henin, undefeated since Wimbledon in 2007, crushed on the court...she was never the same after that match.

    Sharapova def Serena 61 64 2004 Wimbledon F - Serena was well, lackluster but Maria was just unbelievable, especially in her first major final.

    Henin def Bartoli 2007 YEC 60 60 - one word....revenge. Didn't she win in like half an hour or something like that? ok maybe not that fast but it was over quickly.
     
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  29. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Also I believe that at the French Open in 2008, Nadal did not lose a set, in addition to crushing Fed in the final: 6-1, 6-3, 6-0.
     
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  30. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I was just about to post that match...Nadal was just spectacular in that final.
     
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  31. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    My alltime favorite rivalry. I won't bore you with my reasons again. Lest anyone here can't see the pattern, here is late career Evonne driving a fine form Chris nuts on clay with her variety consistency and creativity. http://youtu.be/MdGYUZM_e2s Evonne sometimes made Evert look like a clumsy schoolgirl - but then again she did that to all! Tennis should an Evonne/ Hana type player in the field at all times by federal statute! Life does not work like that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
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  32. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That was an awesome match by Nadal. Federer had that stunned look on his face. I don't think he could believe Nadal was doing that to him.

    I love the way Evonne played. You are right I would love to have a male or female player play that type of tennis today. Unfortunately that species seems to be extinct.
     
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  33. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    2008 *cough*
     
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  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Evonne and Chrissie, it was a golden, appealing rivalry, so charming...so would have been a mandlikova vs jaeger if both had not underachieved
     
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  35. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    Some matches which I haven't seen mentioned yet:

    2007 Aussie final. I think that's the best match I've seen Serena Williams play to crush Sharapova 6:1 6:1 ( I think that's the scoreline). I haven't seen Serena play like that since then.

    1999 Wimbledon semi
    : Everyone talks about 2000 and 2001 because they were great battles but Agassi played magnificently against Rafter and won in straight sets. By the way, Rafter was playing very very well in that match but Agassi was brilliant.

    Therefore, it makes the 1999 Wimbledon final really impressive because Sampras tamed a red hot Agassi, especially when he won 5 games in a row from late in the 1st set to early in the 2nd, some of the best tennis ever witnessed.

    1999 Battersea semifinal - Krajicek, who had lost a close friend in an accident during that tournament, played the best tennis he's ever played against Thomas Johannson. Now its become more normal to see with Berdych and Del Potro but it was incredible to see such a tall player like Krajicek move so well around the court and the baseline, with a beautiful service motion as well. In fact, you can argue Krajicek is a more stylish player than Berdych and Del Potro anyway.

    2004 US Open final, that was a crazy scoreline what Federer did to Hewitt that day. Wasn't it 6:0, 7:6, 6:0? And if I remember correctly Hewitt actually served for the 2nd set!

    1997 ATP (world tour) final: Sampras was incredible against Kafelnikov and won with the loss of about 7 games (best of 5 sets of course). The German announcer told Sampras it was tennis from out of space!

    2006 WTA championships: I have never seen anything like this, Clijsters humiliated, and I mean humiliated Kuznetsova 6:1 6:1 in about 45 minutes! Kuznetsova didn't know where to look other than hang her head.

    1997 Davis cup semi: Quite frankly there must be a Sampras Rafter match in there, Rafter amazingly won the 1st set in a tiebreak and then saw a tidal wave of return winners and passing shots go past him for the rest of the match, some of the best tennis ever played by anyone. I've also said this before, Sampras returned and passed Rafter as well as anyone Rafter's ever faced, including Agassi.

    There are many others which escape me right now, other than Sampras mauling Chang in the last two sets of the 1993 US Open quarterfinal where he won 11 games in a row in the 3rd and 4th sets.

    By the way, I just watched Kvitova crush Bartoli 7:5 6:1 in the final of the Hopman cup team tournament in Australia. Aces, return winners off 1st serves, return winners off 2nd serves, volley winners, forehand winners down the line, backhand winners crosscourt, drop shot winners, every type of winner in one match. Mark my words, you guys are going to be talking about many matches over the next ten years where Kvitova is going to destroy opponents.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
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  36. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    That whole tournament was a testament to Serena's pure will to win when she digs in her heals. She didn't play great leading up to that final, and she got some lucky breaks, but she still kept fighting. That final was her proving she was still a threat, especially after 2006 when Henin and Mauresmo were making all the noise. She wanted it, her championship spirit pushed her through that tournament. It wasn't just a message to Sharapova after the 2004 Wimbledon beating she got, it was a message to tennis as a whole that Serena was still a force to be reckoned with.

    I don't know about best ever god form match, but Agassi sure was on fire that day. He just could do no wrong...I kind of felt bad for Rafter, much as I love Agassi. Rafter wanted it, and he played well, maybe not great the entire time but well enough it should have been more of a fight then it was.

    Sampras was just a god at Wimbledon...he could tame almost anybody when he really set his mind to it. He wanted it, Agassi did to but Sampras just had enough answers at the right times.

    Krajicek was an ok player, and I would agree that he was a lot more stylish then Berdych, maybe not Delpo but in my opinion definitely Berdych. I remember hearing about the accident, and found it sort of inspiring how hard he played despite what he must have been going through. I respected him a lot, playing through that.


    Poor Kuzzy....her and YEC do not seem to mix well what-so-ever....
     
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  37. SusanDK

    SusanDK Semi-Pro

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    That was the first match that sprung to mind when I read the opening post of the thread.

    The women's match that comes to mind was Steffi Graf over Zvereva in the 1988 French Open final, 6-0, 6-0 in 32 minutes.
     
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  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Borg´s 2 wins at RG over Vilas, specially the second one in 1978.

    Connors 2 wins in 1974 over ken Rosewall, specially the second one, at Forest Hills
     
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  39. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Connors was much younger than Muscles, and (I believe) Rosewall had to play a tough four-setter with two tie-breakers against Newk the day before. Tough for a 39-year-old. Also, I think Kenny had four four-setters in a row leading up to the finals

    But 1974 was Connors year--he was just blowing everyone away that year.
     
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  40. sphinx780

    sphinx780 Professional

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    I rarely watched tennis until the mid nineties and I'm definitely not much of a historian, but one match that I remember being amazed by was this young 20 year old russian taking on this dude named Pete Sampras in the 2000 U.S. Open final.

    I remember thinking that Safin was going to be putting beatdowns on the rest of the field for years to come.
     
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  41. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I remember that also. Safin? Who?

    When I heard who was in the final, I figured another easy win for Sampras.

    Boy, was I surprised! (And wrong.)
     
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  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nastase vs Pilic at the 1973 FO

    Borg vs Connors at 1978 W
     
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  43. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    As to Krosero's point of clay being different in the type of domination, I'd have to give this the clay-court award.

    Nadal was a level above everyone else on clay that year and then in the final went a level higher.
     
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  44. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I remember watching the 1978 French with Borg crushing Vilas in the final and I told my friend that if Borg reaches the Wimbledon final against Connors again that Borg would just beat him but destroy him.

    I actually believe the level Borg reached in that 1978 Wimbledon final was perhaps superior to the level McEnroe reached in 1984 Wimbledon final also against Connors. The reason is that I believe Connors was at his peak at that point in 1978 and yet Connors only won seven games the entire match. McEnroe in 1984 allowed three fewer games to Connors but in 1984 Connors was pass his best by a few years. Connors for example in 1984 also lost to Lendl 6-0 6-0. Borg was incredible in the 1978 final.
     
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  45. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    And to go from that slow RG clay to the old, fast grass of Wimbledon.

    (Of course Mac did that also in '84.)
     
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  46. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    No woman did what Borg did 5 x consecutively, but the top women like Court, Evert, Navratilova and Graf,did close nearly half the years they played both, often winning one of then and reaching the final of the other or at least the semis within the same 5 weeks as the men. It was absolutely an expectation and not given much thought. They were almost always deep into the second week at RG and had scheduled themselves only one of the 3 tune-ups on grass, before Wimbledon. We never thought about it when Court won both in '70, Evert in '74, Martina in '84 or Graf in '88, 93,95, 96. Fact is the number of years they were one match away is almost endless. If Evert had not taken Martina in RG and Martina hadn't taken Evert down at Centre Court those numbers would not be that disimilar for back-to backs to Borg
     
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  47. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    I 2nd that. Johnny Mac knifed and cut Jimbo to shreds .
     
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  48. christo

    christo Hall of Fame

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    Hewitt destroying Sampras
    Safin destroying Sampras
    and yet Sampras finding his inner Tebow and winning one more slam.
     
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  49. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I know both played great in beating Sampras but do you really think that was the highest level of tennis ever? I like the inner Tebow line.
     
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  50. morten

    morten Hall of Fame

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    About Edbergs demolition of Courier, Edberg even said after the match: "i felt i could not miss, even if i tried too" priceless :)
     
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