What supplements do you take and why?

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by r2473, Nov 12, 2011.

  1. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Wow!! This one is news to me. I thought pretty much everyone with type-2 diabetes was overweight, and usually very overweight.

    Myth: If you are overweight or obese, you will eventually develop type 2 diabetes.

    Fact: Being overweight is a risk factor for developing this disease, but other risk factors such as family history, ethnicity and age also play a role. Unfortunately, too many people disregard the other risk factors for diabetes and think that weight is the only risk factor for type 2 diabetes. Most overweight people never develop type 2 diabetes, and many people with type 2 diabetes are at a normal weight or only moderately overweight.
     
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  2. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Normal weight Type 2's unfortunately lost the genetic lottery. :) All sorts of interesting diabetes research in the last decade, from viral causes to autoimmune reponses.
     
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  3. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Is GuyClinch's story supported by much of the research or is that just a "Taubes" story? Is there much to support this theory as "the ultimate reason people gain weight and therefore have weight related problems"?

    Or is a calorie still a calorie pretty much? Not in terms of nutrition, just in terms of weight gain and the problems that go along with being fat.

    Are pasta, white rice / bread, and candy the enemy because of the insulin response or because of the (empty) calories?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
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  4. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    If you need a 'doctor' to convince you that a calorie is NOT a calorie here you go..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

    Lustiq has all the credentials you might need if your are looking for authority. He not only actually works with obese children but he is an ivy league guy too..

    Anyway I am not going to bother trying to convince you. But it does seem you are unhappy with your weight - and this might give you a glimpse into why..

    It's evident if you really look into what lustiq has to say that he will proscribe low carb diets - but in general think that low glycemic carbs and elimination of sugar would be enough...

    But the next logical step for people who didn't get enough results from that would in fact be lowering carbs along with eliminating sugar.

    I'd be shocked if that didn't work for anyone. Taubes makes alot of sense to me personally. The idea that the body does in fact self regulate its energy needs is pretty logical to me.

    After I sweat I am thirsty. After people workout they are hungry. So trying to play the 'energy balance' game doesn't really work.
     
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  5. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I imagine everyone is different. I don't think carbs / insulin / etc. are a problem for me. My weight is fine. My fasting glucose is fine. Carbs make up about 60% of my diet I'd guess, but I think I will do an actual food journal and see.
     
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  6. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Most metabolic researchers agree that calories in vs. out is the dominant factor. Differences in insulin response/metabolism/gi index/genetics certainly play a role but in MOST cases, they play second fiddle. Are there groups of people that do better on very low carb vs. moderate or high carb? Absolutely. Are these people the majority? No.

    Pasta, white rice, bread, candy are no enemies of mine. :) Too much...yes. In moderation? No. There are better choices, of course. During a very, very broke period in grad school, I lost 10 #in a month eating nothing but oatmeal with sugar and raisins for breakfast and Top Ramen with broccoli for lunch and dinner (2 packs each meal). Of course it's an n of 1 but shouldn't my insulin have been going crazy?

    This blog has been posted by others previously. I don't agree with everything Guyenet proposes but this particular response to Taubes is brilliant and easy to understand.

    http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
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  7. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    A handful of Docs/theories doesn't negate decades of research and thousands of other MDs/researchers/institutions. Lustig's theories are just that...theories.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/08/12/MNGBUKHEOM1.DTL

    When he completes a few large subject group/long-term studies, I'll be more convinced.
     
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  8. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    GuyClinch has it right and is fully supported by modern research. The blurb on the Mayo Clinic website is a little misleading.

    Pasta and rice aren't that bad, but candy and white bread are. Stick to whole grains, rice, and pasta for your grains. Still, though, you shouldn't be eating lots of calories from grains.


    Calories in vs calories out is the determining factor in mass balance. A lot of factors affect calories out, but in the end if you are maintaining your weight and simply cut or increase the number of calories you intake and make zero other changes your weight will change.

    I'm not convinced of the sugar=hungry thing, but I am convinced of the "lifetime of multiple daily huge insulin and glucose spikes = insulin resistance, obesity, and ultimately a much higher risk of diabetes and heart disease" thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
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  9. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Lustiq will readily admit he is summarizing the work of many other researchers and doctors. And almost no biochemst would disagree with the way Taubes has described the insulin cycle. These are not whacky theory guys, IMHO.

    It's not really 'establishment vs. crackpot."

    As Taubes has documented the history of nutrition science is really alot of BAD science - especially recent history. Many of the cherished 'modern' ideas really rely on some suspect stuff.

    They don't control their variables - they don't listen to the biochemists and so on and so forth.

    You are imagining there is this great body of research behind what these doctors have been telling us. But I believe taubes. It's just not there. It hasn't even been demonstrated that exercise leads to weight loss.

    You can absolutely make a good case that the science isn't there yet for Lustiq about sugar or about low carbs. But I tell you what it SURE THE HECK isn't there for the traditional view. I was like you - I thought there was. But even something 'obvious' like exercise makes you lose weight..not alot of evidence.

    As Taubes explains quite cleary the problem with saying 'calories in/calories out' is that while true it doesn't really tell us anything.

    The question is WHY DO SOME PEOPLE TAKE IN MORE CALORIES then they need? And why are some people fine?

    I certainly wouldn't consider myself overweight. But I am not some masterful 'calorie balancer.' Taubes and Lustiq Eades and others point out that what you eat can effect your appetite.

    Basically if you eat junk - refined carbs and especially sugars your body gets thrown out of whack. Your fat cells get greedy - you end up taking in more food then you need.

    It makes perfect sense to me. Think of it like thirst. I have never had to 'track' my liquid intake. I drink when I am thirsty. I don't worry that I will drink myself to death by mistake. I don't have to say man I better not drink that extra bit of water. No. My body knows how much I need to drink - it tells my mind.

    As long as you don't screw stuff up your body will work fine. But eating a whole lot of crap we were never evolved to eat namely fructose and refined carbs. I buy into the idea that screws you up.

    Want to get lean? Cut out all refined carbs and sugars. Bodybuilders have been doing it for years. Movie stars do it. It works - and best of all you don't have to go hungry.

    Personally I LOVE carbs. It's trite but I love doughnuts. I love candy and the like. I love pasta. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out people who eat alot of that stuff get fat. And they get diabetes. And they get alzheimers..

    What these guys say totally square with my experiences. I actually like fatty foods like steak and ribs. There is a reason they don't try those all you can eat stunts with a giant bag of french fries. Eat too much steak and you feel naseous.

    Carbs OTOH I can eat non-stop. They just don't fill me up. And the blood sugar/insulin theories explain this. That's why I am a believers..

    That's why I favour insulin senstivity supplements like cinnamon and fish oil. Insulin resistance is likely responsible for most of our weight gain problems IMHO. I also am trying out coconut oil - for whatever cooking purposes I can use but not really convinced about it..
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
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  10. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    What is misleading about the Mayo blurb and could you provide links to this "modern" research? Are we talking theory or good human studies? Recommendations from any major university or medical group? The stuff in Taubes' blogs/books? Not being a wise-arse, just interested in what studies form the basis of your opinion. Again, endocrinology/diabetes, etc., is not my area of expertise but it is the focus of many profs/researchers in my division. I don't know any major research uni/national or international organization/American Diabetes Association/Human Genome Project/you name it that disagrees with that Mayo blurb.
     
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  11. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Kevin, are there any supplements that you would recommend for someone like me? I have no know deficiencies. My blood pressure, cholesterol levels, weight, and fasting glucose are all "normal", so I don't have a "disease" motive.

    Would it make any sense to take anything? Vitamin D maybe?
     
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  12. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    I've never worked in a nutrition division where at least 1/2 the faculty wasn't a biochem PhD. They don't all agree with Taubes/Lestig/etc.

    This is what is responsible for most of our weight gain problems:

    Meats, eggs, and nut kcals decreased 4%.
    Dairy kcals decreased 3%.
    Percentage of fruit kcals stayed the same.
    Percentage of vegetable kcals stayed the same.
    Flour and cereal product kcals increased 3%.
    Added fat kcals are up 7%,
    Added sugars kcals decreased 1%
    Total energy intake in 1970 averaged 2172 kcal. By 2007 this hiked up to 2775 kcal, a 603 kcal increase.

    For the full spread sheet:

    http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/foodconsumption/spreadsheets/foodloss/Calories.xls#Percents!a1

    In addition, leisure time activity has decreased over the last 30 years with 1/3 of the population getting no exercise. Mechanization (automatic dishwashers, escalators and elevators, etc.) has been estimated to add 100 kcal/day to our kcal surplus. Throw in the drop in PE classes, etc., and we're approaching +700-800 kcal/day vs. 30 years ago.


    http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/physical/stats/leisure_time.htm

    Taubes uses newspaper articles and number of gym memberships to prove that the exercise explosion of the late 70's and 80's didn't help the obesity epidemic. I think I need harder proof. In addition, obesity rates for higher economic class groups increased much faster than lower economic groups over the last 30+ years. But we know lower economic groups tend to eat more calorie dense (sugary beverages, bread, rice, high fat meats) and nutrient poor foods (particularly fruits, veggies, low fat meats and dairy), so how can this be?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20549318

    There is ample literature RE severe underreporting of kcal intake among overweight/obese, as high as 700+ kcal/day. There have also been a number of studies involving subjects that reported a particular daily kcal intake, who were then given this daily kcal level in a controlled setting and lost 1-3 #/week.

    There are plenty of critiques of his books/theories on the Net. I'm not saying he's got it all wrong (I actually agree with a lot he says) but he cherry picks with the best of them . I'm glad he's brought a number of issues public but his opinion isn't gospel. He wants to make it all about insulin (which does play a large role) but it's a piece in the multifactoral puzzle of obesity...which is still mostly about kcal in vs kcal out. :) Just ask the K State professor who lost nearly 30 pounds and improved his lipid profile on a junk food diet.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
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  13. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    As we've discussed before, a multivitamin is cheap insurance, though there's a good chance it will provide no benefit. Ask to have your D levels checked at your next blood draw. Taking 1000-2000 IU/day certainly wouldn't hurt you. I know that you exercise regularly and your blood parameters are normal. You know how to lose weight and monitor your kcal intake. My big advice would be to increase your fruit, veggie and beans/lentils-that's the best thing you could do for overall health. Maybe a daily serving of yogurt or kefir, something with active cultures. Designate time to meditate/pray/relax/zone out on a run (my fave).
     
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  14. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    A doc I play with suggested that I take the liquid D3 that has a dropper. I take 1000iu a day.
     
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  15. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Ya, I suppose I'm getting to the age that I actually probably ought to start making fruits and vegetables my normal snacks instead of chips and candy bars. Never was a problem when I was younger and really isn't a problem right now, but probably will start to become a problem I suspect in the near future. And lifestyle changes don't happen overnight.

    Beans certainly have a lot of fiber. Guess I should start trying to have a few servings a week. Maybe have red beans and rice as starch instead of potatoes or pasta.

    I assume canned fruits and vegetables are OK, right? That or frozen?
     
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  16. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    I would prefer fresh but frozen would be next on the list. I had to really start watching my intake at ~ 33yo, when my daughter was born. Exercise time decreased and stopping for take-out after work increased. My last really bad disc herniation also happened just before her birth-it's amazing how quickly I gained weight during that time.
     
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  17. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Yup, that's the way it goes. Fortunately I don't have any bad injuries like you, though I suspect one or two kids will be on the way.

    I'll probably keep fresh carrots around. Probably apples and oranges too. Otherwise its going to be frozen or canned, depending on the specific fruit or vegetable in question. For vegetables I'll probably go with mostly frozen, but I suspect fruit will end up being canned.
     
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  18. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    For veggies, frozen is generally at least as good as fresh nutritionally. The idea is that they are harvested at peak ripeness and frozen rather quickly, as opposed to harvested early and allowed to ripen for several days in transit before even making the shelves.

    I go almost all frozen for convenience and economy. I tend to avoid canned fruit because of added sweeteners.
     
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  19. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Earlier someone wanted proof of the blood sugar diabetes hypothesis..

    http://forecast.diabetes.org/news/low-carb-diet-improves-type-2-diabetes-control

    The thing is - no doubt the Mayo clinic knows this. I wouldn't be surprised if they used either a lower glycemic diet or a low carb one.. (Logically both would help with diabetes and pre-diabetes).

    But they cannot come right out and say it because they don't want to step on the toes of big agriculture or hurt the feelings of diabetics.

    Don't confuse some feel good blurb with the suggested course of action..

    Either way someone has to explain both the huge surge in diabetes AND the huge surge in obesity in SIX MONTH OLD KIDS. Calories in/calories out doesn't work for that. I don't know about you but I don't know any parents who either ration babies feeding times or put them on an exercise program..
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
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  20. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Those numbers are wonky. Let's keep it simple and focus on sugar.

    This is from the AHA:

    Added sugar was not a significant component of the human diet until the advent of modern food-processing methods. Since then, the intake of sugar has risen steadily. The average US sugar utilization per capita on the basis of food disappearance data was 55 kg (120 lb) per year in 1970, and it reached 68 kg (150 lb) per year in 1995 (almost 0.5 lb per day).1 Sugar (simple carbohydrate) intake averages 25% of total energy intake. Data from the 1989 to 1991 Continuing Survey of Food Intake by Individuals indicate that soft drinks and sugars added at the table (eg, sugar/syrups and jams) are 2 of the top 4 carbohydrate sources for US adults

    Remember things like sugar act like mutiplier with regards to our appetite.

    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/106/4/523.full
     
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  21. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    How does this link prove that sugar causes diabetes? This study shows improvement, over a very short time (24 weeks) in obese patients already diagnosed with diabetes. Nothing new under the sun here.

    People are getting fatter...obese people have a much higher risk of developing Type 2 DM...strong genetic link for baby having type 2 if parent is type 2...increased incidence of gestational diabetes.
     
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  22. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    So the USDA's numbers are wonky? Wow. Why would we separate sugar out from other macronutrient sources? You have to look at the entire picture. Would you not agree that 700 extra kcal/day is a huge problem, no matter the source? Continue further in the article you just linked, particularly the last paragraph:

    'Few epidemiological studies have directly examined the relationship between sugar intake and diabetes incidence. In general, prospective data show no association, and in fact, several dietary studies show an inverse association between total carbohydrate intake and diabetes incidence.13–15 This observation, however, is confounded because diets lower in carbohydrate are higher in fat (high fat intake predicts diabetes risk because of increased obesity).16 On the other hand, two recent prospective cohort studies have reported food frequency consumption data that showed that a history of consumption of foods with a high glycemic load predicts the development of type 2 diabetes in women17 and men.18

    No epidemiological study has examined the effects of dietary sugar on insulin resistance. Several clinical studies have shown that altering the proportion of carbohydrates in the diet for up to 4 months in humans does not influence insulin resistance,19 but the effects of varying sugar content per se were not examined.

    It is widely believed that individuals with diabetes should avoid sugar to maintain glycemic control. However, there is considerable debate about whether high-sugar diets have adverse effects on glucose control in diabetic individuals. A number of studies that assessed the effects of single meals containing 12% to 25% of calories as sucrose found no adverse effects of sucrose on average glycemia.20,21 Some long-term studies up to several months in duration showed that providing as much as 38% of calories as sucrose had no effect on average glucose control.22–24 Diabetic individuals, however, may experience fluctuations in blood glucose levels with a habitual diet that is high in concentrated sweets, especially if they make errors with regard to the amount of carbohydrates they consume.'
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
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  23. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Huh? I never said sugar causes diabetes. It's certainly a contributing factor, IMHO. You could probably trigger diabetes with large amounts of white bread too.

    You aren't going to be able to come up with any one study which proves the entire disease course from pre-diabetes to diabetes.

    The current prevailing wisdom (and this is not really in question near as I can tell) is that.. High blood sugar --> Insulin resistance --> pre-diabetes (so called Metabolic X syndrome) to diabetes.

    If you eat alot of processed carbs (which have been proven to jack your blood sugar) or a lot of sugar (which is thought to raise insulin resistance even without directly jacking up the blood sugar as much) you are raising your risk of diabetes.

    This is why we are having the current diabetes epidemic. This is very clear because its well known that dietary fat has a very LOW effect on both insulin response and blood sugar.

    The point people like Taubes eades etc are making is that this disease course likely has effects for the non diabetic too. If you want to keep your body fat down - don't eat carbs/sugars. This all comes about if you understand how diabetes is triggered.
     
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  24. GuyClinch

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    Epidemiological studies are totally worthless. They are observational and cover way to many confounding variables to have any real value. They aren't real science at best we could call them 'observations.' which might give scientists an idea of what to study..

    The point of this thread is to explain what supplements we take and why..

    I pointed out I take fish oil and cinnamon because I fear insulin resitance and weight gain. Now you can feel free to ignore that..

    I don't feel like rewriting Protein Power or Good Calories Bad Calories.. But if you want to see why people like me buy into the insulin resistance theory of weight gain/obesity diabetes you are welcome to read those..
     
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  25. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    I thought you were referring to the whole 'sugar intake causes diabetes' from a few posts up.

    Your fourth paragraph seems to be contradicted by the study you posted (and the segment I pasted above).

    'Few epidemiological studies have directly examined the relationship between sugar intake and diabetes incidence. In general, prospective data show no association, and in fact, several dietary studies show an inverse association between total carbohydrate intake and diabetes incidence.13–15 This observation, however, is confounded because diets lower in carbohydrate are higher in fat (high fat intake predicts diabetes risk because of increased obesity).16 On the other hand, two recent prospective cohort studies have reported food frequency consumption data that showed that a history of consumption of foods with a high glycemic load predicts the development of type 2 diabetes in women17 and men.18

    This is a very convoluted paragraph but it seems that:

    1. there is an inverse relationship between total carb intake and diabetes incidence (higher carb intake = less incidence of DM

    2. high fat intake predicts DM risk because of increased obesity

    3. recent cohort studies show foods with high glycemic load may be predictive

    Is it safe to say that high fat and high glycemic load foods are a risk factor for obesity and DM? High carb and fat intake means excess kcal intake...obesity...increased risk of DM.
     
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  26. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    So now epidemiological studies, the Mayo Clinic and USDA data are worthless?

    I read Protein Power 10 years ago and finished up GC/BC about a week after it came out. I understand the attraction, as GC/BC is very well written. As I said before, I absolutely believe in the insulin resistance theory of weight gain...just dont' think it's the prevailing cause of obesity.
     
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  27. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    In your opinion, is insulin resistance more about "the genetic lottery" than anything else?

    I don't seem to be much affected by eating lots of carbs. My blood sugar is low. I eat probably 60% or more of a 3K-calorie (or more) diet as carbs (simple carbs).

    I get fat from just eating too much, and truthfully, I still (even being close to 40) have to eat "a lot" too much to get fatter (well, this might not be true I guess. Probably just seems true because my maintenance calorie intake is high).

    On the flip side, low-carb dieting didn't work for me either, while for some it works magic apparantly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
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  28. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    If we're talking diabetics, 90-95% in the USA are Type 2. The two primary causes of Type 2 are 1. lifestyle and 2. genetics. IMHO, lifestyle is far and away the #1 factor. However, with so many Type 2 diabetics having children, incidence will continue to skyrocket. I'm with the group that believes obesity and Type 2 go hand in hand. It's not 100% but it's quite significant. As a grad student, intern and RD, the number of Type 2's I met/counseled that were not 1. very overweight or obese 2. had excess kcal intake from all sources 3. low activity level were few and far between. The statistics bear that out. To a person, every Type 2 DM teen I've worked with has been obese.
     
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  29. r2473

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    But not all fat, sedentary people develop diabetes obviously.

    The story I'm seeing is:

    1) No matter your family history / genetic makeup, if you just don't get fat and exercise, your risk of developing diabetes is low.

    2) If you do get fat and don't exercise, you probably still won't get diabetes unless you "lost the genetic lottery".

    Is that about right? Or is (2) wrong?
     
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  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Isn't that true for all things in general?
     
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  31. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    I don't think you understand what an epidemiological study is. This isn't some crazy talk to disregard its value..

    FWIW the Mayo Clinic favours a low glycemic diet to fight diabetes..


    Eat healthy. The Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension (DASH) diet and the Mediterranean Diet, like many healthy-eating plans, limit unhealthy fats and emphasize fruits, vegetables, fish and whole grains. Both of these dietary approaches have been found to offer important health benefits — in addition to weight loss — for people who have components of metabolic syndrome. Ask your doctor for guidance before starting a new eating plan.

    This is different from the Duke Clinic:

    Patients who followed the no-glycemic diet experienced more frequent reductions, and in some cases elimination, of their need for medication to control type 2 diabetes, according to lead author Eric Westman, MD, director of Duke's Lifestyle Medicine Program. The findings are published online in Nutrition and Metabolism.

    "Low glycemic diets are good, but our work shows a no-glycemic diet is even better at improving blood sugar control," he says. "We found you can get a three-fold improvement in type 2 diabetes as evidenced by a standard test of the amount of sugar in the blood. That's an important distinction because as a physician who is faced with the choice of drugs or diet, I want a strong diet that's shown to improve type 2 diabetes and minimize medication use."

    What you have to realize is that these are similiar approaches to the same problem. And both eliminate excess sugar I can tell you that much..

    Carbs are the problem - if you restrict calories you restrict carbs so this is why even your traditional diets work. Low carb works better - truth.

    Your welcome to believe whichever 'clinic' you prefer. But don't make it out like there is some clear consensus.
     
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  32. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Actually, they both teach carb counting, which is pretty much standard diabetes care across the board.

    http://www.dukeraleighhospital.org/.../programs/diabetes-center-outpatient-services

    You keep arguing about low carb approaches AFTER a DM diagnosis. Everybody and their mama understands the need for carb control at that point.

    Does low carb work better long term? Not just for diabetics, I'm talking the general population. I haven't seen that info. I do know that drop out rates for Atkins and other low carb diets are very, very high.
     
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  33. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Who is talking about Atkins or super low carb diets? I feel like I'm the one who started talking about "low carb" but I sure as heck didn't mean Atkins or any other nonsense like that.

    By low carb I mean lower carb than is normal, particularly refined carbs such as white flour and sugar. Whole grains, fruits, etc, are fine. But you shouldn't be getting most of your daily calories from carbs of any sort unless you're an athlete burning so many you need them just to get enough energy.
     
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  34. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    In clinical/medical terms, anything < 50% total kcal from carbs would be considered low carb. Even diabetic diets, particularly the exchange system or carb counting still allow for 50-60% total kcal intake from carbs, encouraging whole grains, fruits, veggies and dairy as primary carb sources.
     
    #84
  35. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    Most supplements are hot air. You can get all you need in real foods.
    Eat more nuts, fruit and veggies.
    Will save you you your hardearned and deserved buckaroos and get you in the shape of your life.

    I used to use supplements and then tried a better diet.

    No competition. Period.
     
    #85
  36. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    Most rec tennis players (all of this board minus 10 people) don't need supps. I'm a college athlete and I'm lifting to get bigger and maybe one day when I'm done with tennis I'll try body building or power lifting so I use them. Protein isn't necessary but I have it in case I don't get enough from food, same with my multi. Creatine works for me and nothing bad has come from it so why fix what ain't broke. So yes supps have their place, except most of the people here don't need them since they don't train hard enough.
     
    #86
  37. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    Supplements do have their place, the best way to look at them is as the name suggests, supplementary :) Just for the record a healthy diet high in fruits, vegetables and whole grains can get pretty pricey.
     
    #87
  38. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    ^^ Besides convenience, that's the other reason to go with frozen and canned. Fresh fruits and veggies are expensive.
     
    #88
  39. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Risk factors for diabetes include things like lean muscle mass (lack off) and age. So the amount of carbs you could tolerate depends on the level on insulin resistance you have and your age and your muscle mass, sex hormone level etc.

    Remember that diabetes is more of a threshold. Some posters in this thread are treating it like some random case of bad luck.

    That's not true. You can measure people who seem to be getting close to diabetic. All it means is that the body can no longer produce enough insulin to lower the blood sugar level below a certain level. This is because of insulin resistance - which results from habitual high blood sugar.

    Mayo Clinic:

    Say you are at 105 mg/dl. I believe that's prediabetes..
    Anyway its not huge leap of logic to decide to eliminate the foods that might lead to high insulin levels in the blood. Hence low glycemic and low carb diets are recommended by a great many doctors..

    This is even more true nowadays as many people feel alzheimers is a 'type III diabetes.'

    Mayo Clinic:

    We know empircally what foods cause a very strong insulin response. So its not hard to fight insulin resistance and lower the amounts of insulin released. There is of course a conflict between the old school idea of lower glycemic diet and the more stringent approach of a low carb diet.

    With a low carb diet you are effectively replacing carbs with fats which have a very low insulin response.

    Its entirely up to the individual to know what to do with this kind of information of course. The medical establishment is pretty slow to react. How long did it take them to decide the trans fats in marginarine are bad for you?

    Actually the big sacred cow isn't diabetes - its that low fat diets are pushed by some because they believe high fat is linked to heart disease. The newer research casts alot of doubt on this theory..
     
    #89
  40. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Trans fats are in lots foods. I bet most people eat lots of it each and every day. Baked goods always have trans fats so as to increase shelf life.

    http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/top-10-foods-with-trans-fats

    Another interesting fact, last I heard, a product can be called "trans fat free" if it has .5 grams or less PER SERVING. Who gets to decide serving sizes? Yup, usually the manufacturer of course.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
    #90
  41. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Are you in the US? Since trans fats are required to be listed on the label now, the vast majority of foods that have had trans fat in the past are now trans fat free (or essentially free, as <0.5g is allowed to be listed as 0).
     
    #91
  42. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    That's perhaps the biggest mistake I see people who go on diets make: cutting out fats. I've seen so many people go on a diet and end up eating some ridiculous macro ratios like 10g of fat, 40g of protein, and 300g of carbs. They think fat makes them fat. Low dietary fat intake messes with your hormones and leaves you feeling hungry and sluggish. Fat is filling, satisfying, and healthy in moderate amounts.
     
    #92
  43. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    But they are totaly worth it. The supplements run low prices for a reason.
    Cant compete with the value per ounce of the real deal aka food!
     
    #93
  44. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I'm 41 and have never taken any supplements until shoulder surgery nearly two years ago. After a lengthy layoff from sports to recover, I found as I returned I had a lot of stiffness in my joints - not just the shoulder, but knees and hips. I should mention that I have a family history of arthritis, and my doctor suspected that it's beginning to rear it's ugly head.

    Some other info: I'm not overweight (6', 165lbs) and eat healthy by most standards. My wife subscribes to the Weight Watchers lifestyle and cooks low fat, high vegetable/fruit, lean meat (fish/chicken), high protein/fiber diet. I stay away from junk/fast food. I play tennis and basketball and work out in between - 4-5 times a week.

    So what do I take and why? After trying a few joint supplements that didn't work for me, I tried Orange Triad (Multivitamin with Joint Support) and have had good results for the first time. The shoulder feels good and the stiffness in my knees and hips is gone. Also, I noticed less fatigue during a typical day - no "2pm slump". I take 2 with breakfast and 2 with dinner, which is 2/3 the recommended dosage.
     
    #94
  45. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    No, I'm not sure.

    I just assumed anything that wanted the longer shelf life would still be using trans fats (muffins, cookies, that sort of thing). Maybe not anymore.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
    #95
  46. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Orange triad is really working for me. I just ordered another bottle. It has dramatically helped me with my wrist pain, and overall I have noticed an increase in energy as well.

    It is definitely geared to the very active person, so if you just play tennis 2-3 times a week, it's probably not needed.
     
    #96
  47. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I'm a 2-3 times a week player and it's definitely helped relieve my joint stiffness and although I don't really notice an increase in energy per se, I don't get the energy slumps that I used to.
     
    #97
  48. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Orange triad does seem pretty good - but I don't have much joint trouble. I do like the idea it has vitamin D in though.
     
    #98
  49. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And go around passing gas all over the place
     
    #99
  50. snoopy

    snoopy Professional

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    In the youtube video that GuyClinch talks about, Lustiq says at one point that we have a choice, get fat or fart.
     

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