What weird type of spin does this ball have on it?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by tank_job, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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  2. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    Looks like an inside-out forehand down the line.
     
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  3. Joehax

    Joehax New User

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    I think it was just a lucky shot to be honest.

    If he could hit like that all the time, it would make it very difficult for his opponents to track the incoming shot.
     
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  4. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    First it looks like it's going wide, but then sort of curves back inside the line. Is that a camera angle illusion or some sort of side-spin? Or was it very windy that day?
     
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  5. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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  6. Tebow

    Tebow New User

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    I know Bellucci (not personally) since he was 12 or 14 and I guarantee he is one of the biggest hitters that I've seen. Around that age, he played and almost bit Guga Kuerten when Guga was number 1 in the world. If he is in a good day he can bagel any top 5. His biggest problem is he only has one gear. He never slows down his shots when he's not in the zone, and most of the times he loses to himself (that includes mentally).
     
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  7. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    It's some side spin. It tends to happen on high and low balls because your swing would naturally have a sideways component for balls that are out of the middle of your hitting zone. You can see it on other shots he hits too, but that particular one really emphasizes it.
     
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  8. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Very fast racket head speed + slight mishit + camera angle
     
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  9. corners

    corners Legend

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    The same kind of sidespin most top players put on topspin shots struck at shoulder height. Anytime you see the ball curve side to side in flight there is significant sidespin on the ball. Anytime you see the ball curve one way and then bounce the other there is also spiral, or gyro, spin on it as well. This one looked like sidespin only but hard to tell from that angle.
     
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  10. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    Actually, I noticed that the balls coming off ALL of Bellucci's forehands in that rally curve slightly from his right to his left - just the one at 2:05 is exaggerated to the extreme.

    Does that mean he hits the ball slightly from his left to his right as well as bottom to top?
     
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  11. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    pretty much the normal, pulling up and across, diagonal spin of the modern Fh.
     
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  13. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, we can have either left side spin or right side spin, depending on which way you brush across the ball. There may also be a bit of spiral spin on some of the shots. Spiral spin also comes in 2 flavors, clockwise and CCW. Spiral spin manifest itself on the bounce direction tho', not during the flight. Side spin (vertical-axis) manifests itself during the flight (especially prior to the bounce) but does not affect the bounce direction itself.
     
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  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    In other words, say you're rightie, hitting DTL.
    If you hit the outside of the ball, impart some topspin and sidespin, the ball can head out into the doubles alley, then curve back inwards into the singles court.
    If you hit the inside of the ball, usually slicing, your ball starts well inside the singles sidelines, then curves out past the sideline into the alley between the singles and doubles sidelines.
    Think of a slice serve. It curves right to left for you. Now hit a reverse slice serve, and it curves from left to right!
    SIDESPIN
     
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  15. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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  16. 1HBH Rocks

    1HBH Rocks Semi-Pro

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    Inside-out forehands are played cross-court... inside-in forehands are played down the line.
     
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  17. OldFedIsOld

    OldFedIsOld Professional

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    Banana shots are hit brushing the racquet diagonally outwards and up. For Nadal they curved left to right.

    Bellucci's forehand was hit inside-in down the line, racquet brushing back and slightly down. For Bellucci's shot, it curved right to left.

    Conclusion, they are both left handers and they hit different shots.
     
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  18. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    its actually reverse backspin, thats what causes all of the action on the ball

    sorry for the quad post, i really am not sure how that happened, i only clicked post once lol
     
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  19. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    gee. no kidding.

    btw how do you brush down on a topspin shot?
     
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  20. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    I know dooshbag. But on inside-out forehands you tend to get outwards spin (away from your forehand) just like here, except Bellucci was hitting an inside-in forehand on this occasion, hence the amusing yet true paradox in what I was saying.
     
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  21. Alejandro Lanza

    Alejandro Lanza Rookie

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    What exactly is 'spiral spin'? sounds physics defying :)
     
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  22. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    [​IMG]

    Spiral spin is a z-axis spin. The z-axis would be the axis that is the same direction as the flight of the ball. Think of the type of spin that badminton shuttles and (American) footballs have when they are in flight. Gun barrels are usually rifled so that they impart a spiral spin to the bullet. This spin tends to stabilize the flight of the projectile.

    The tennis ball spins that we are most familiar with are perpendicular to the flight of the ball. Topspin and underspin (backspin) are spins around the x-axis. Vertical axis (y-axis) spin would be sidespin (either left sidespin or right sidespin). Since these x-axis and y-axis spins are perpendicular to the flight of the ball, they are subject to the Magnus effect. This effect is what causes the bending in the flight of the ball. Vertical axis spins cause the ball to deviate left or right while x-axis spins cause flight deviations up and down.

    Note that there is no Magnus effect for spiral spin -- this type of spin does not cause any flight deviation and, in fact, tends to stabilize the flight (which is why it is imparted to bullets and, sometimes, to arrows). While spiral spin does not create any deviations while the ball is in flight, it does cause a tennis ball to bounce left or right (when it grabs the court). It is spiral spin, and not (vertical-axis) sidespin, the causes a ball to bounce left or right on an (American) twist serve.
    .
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
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  23. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    So is it that Nadal hit the banana shots that curve back into the tramlines when the ball was low, therefore his forehand was swinging right to left at that point, causing the ball to bend in? And Bellucci hit his curve shot off a high Djokovic forehand, therefore his forehand was swinging from left to right at that ponit - so the ball bent in the opposite direction? It worked well for him since he was hitting an inside in forehand, but if he were hitting a running forehand down the line, the curve would have pulled his shot wide.

    So if you want to prevent Nadal hitting banana shots against you, hit very wide AND very high to his forehand, so when he swings at it, the curve he'll naturally put on the ball will cause it to bend away from the tramlines, thus he'll hit the ball wide?
     
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  24. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

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    It's like hitting a reverse serve. You use a semi western grip to try to swing across a high ball, you naturally get that right-left sidespin component if you're lefty.

    Nadal's banana shot spins the other way because he utilizes a different technique. It's more of an "inside out swing" should I say. As he extends out to his target the racquet is moving outwards away from his body. This right-to-left motion helps to generate that left-to-right spin. It's more on purpose than a natural thing to do. It is the easiest to do on low balls.

    But the scariest thing is he can do it off relatively high balls too. Imagine how much you have to torque your wrist to create that spin on high balls, Nadal's a beast:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqcTQ0QHmsk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OlhRjALofY
    5:41
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
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  25. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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  26. J_R_B

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    Looks like the sideways curvature is mostly a camera angle illusion, but the shot clearly had a ridiculoue amount of topspin with a little sidespin as well.
     
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  27. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ There is more than just a little bit of sidespin on the Nadal and Roddick shots. Yes, with high camera angle, the topspin curvature might be perceived as added sideways curve. But from the court level, we can see that their is at least a moderate amount of side spin (and perhaps just a little bit of spiral spin).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mUUd9qP0Y&t=20s
    .
     
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  28. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I meant the original Belluci shot. I didn't watch the other vids, but in general, Nadal can do things to a tennis ball that no one else in history has done.
     
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  29. Alejandro Lanza

    Alejandro Lanza Rookie

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    Got it, makes sense, thanks!
     
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  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Don't get the mystery on the sidespin shots.
    They curve, like a curveball, simple.
    You can hit forehands that curve left, you can hit forehands that curve right. Just look at JimmyConnors's forehand.
     
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  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, Rafa does some excellent things with the ball, but they have all been done historically I'm pretty sure.
    I have to bring out my former doubles partner who was a Nat'l champ in Squash and/or racketball (played both on Nat'l level).
    He could undoubtedly hit more spin than Rafa, often making the ball look more like a Frisbee than a ball. I've never seen anyone spin one like him; and during live points too.
    Crazy thing was returning his serve which came at you on an angle 45 degr off the court. I've seen players try to return it and hit the ball solid, nearly 90 degrees in the wrong direction. Truly amazing that guy.
     
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Geez, where were you when I mentioned I used to play a B player who often hit the ball with sooo much spin that the ball went oval, and HISSED loudly.
    And he had the same serve! Short when he wanted it, heading about 45 degrees sideways and hitting the sidefence around NML depth.
    Bunch of huge # posters poo poo'ed me, saying it's impossible to make the ball go oval and HISS loudly, because THEY hadn't seen it.
    This guy was 6'3", and could absolutely POUND flat first serves. His problem was that he liked to toy with odd spin shots, and could often be beat if the opponent compensated and anticipated the weirdo spins and angles.
     
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  33. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    HOLY ****, that ball at 3:15 should have sued for battery after that serve :shock:
     
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  34. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    This is true, but hard to visualize because unlike all of your other examples, the object is spherical.
     
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  35. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Whoa. That's scary - and massively impressive. Not sure those top three guys are human.

    Kevin
     
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  36. Funbun

    Funbun Professional

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    I've almost always have done this shot on accident on high balls, as a lefty. It's even costed me points, since the ball will sometimes drift sideways off the court when I want to go down the line.

    Contrary to what some may think, it doesn't necessarily have to occur because of a mishit.

    In practice, you would try to slap a high ball with as much topspin as possible. It's easiest to create spiral spin on high balls, as the racquet will brush the ball at a more extreme, diagonal angle to create the spiral spin and topspin components.

    It's served me well against kids who just moonball all the time.

    Bellucci apparently picked the right time and right placement to kill that high ball, on the right side of the court, for the lateral error you can get from the ball spinning like that.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
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  37. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    You know all those posts about how to hit a low ball with a western grip?
    THAT's how you curve the ball when you're a lefty going DTL passing attempt. You hit the outside of the ball, it curves. It starts wide of the singles court, somewhere in the alley, then curves back inside the singles sidelines.
     
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