Whatever Happened To Common Courtesy?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Well, things are not that simple. The husband may have thought he could sneak away for a few days before the last stages of pregnancy. Then the doctor might have said be extra careful about this, this and this, and the husband would have had to play it safe. My wife was diagnosed with gestational diabetes late in the game and that changed the whole dynamics. But during such times, many families will not like to discuss this with everyone. Even if nothing is the matter, women can get emotional about husband not being around for a few days although they said before that it was cool.
     
    #51
  2. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    "I can't tell you specifically why, but I will be unable to honor my commitment to the team thru to nationals. I just wanted to let you know as soon as possible so you could make plans"
     
    #52
  3. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    I hope that I don't know anyone so petty that they would end up on nonspeaking terms with someone because BEFORE THE SEASON they thought that they would be free for nationals but then it turned out they were HAVING A BABY and had to cancel. I will never understand the people who act like joining a team means that tennis now has to be everyone else's #1 priority. I just cannot wrap my mind around the fact that some people don't think that having a baby is a good enough excuse to change plans.
     
    #53
  4. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    When do you feel he should have informed the team he was unable to keep his commitment?

    I'm suggesting as soon as he knew.

    I'm suggesting that this was not acceptable.

    What is your opinion?
     
    #54
  5. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    No, babies always arrive like clockwork right on the due date and there are never any complications.

    Please don't try inject any logic into this thread - Tennis Tom has just stepped away momentarily to make some popcorn and is expecting some entertainment when he gets back.
     
    #55
  6. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    "I can't tell you specifically why, but I will be unable (might not be able) to honor my commitment to the team thru to nationals. I just wanted to let you know as soon as possible so you could make plans"
     
    #56
  7. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    "I can't tell you specifically why, but I will be unable (might not be able) to honor my commitment to the team thru to nationals. I just wanted to let you know as soon as possible so you could make plans"
     
    #57
  8. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I'd say show up with 7 and forfeit #2 singles. Chalk "winning nationals" up to something that wasn't meant to be. Have fun and hope for a healthy birth to your teammates child.

    In hindsight, I'm sure this guy wishes he had not commited. Those with kids clearly understand that pregnancy ain't an easy situation to plan around. Hundreds of reasons could exist why he felt like he could go, then **** happened in the end of the third tri.
     
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  9. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    When he made the decision that it was best for his family that he didn't go. Pregnancies vary quite a bit and particularly if it was his first child its hard to know how things will play out that far in advance. Its the job of the captain to have a large enough roster that the team will be OK if someone gets hurt, has a work conflict, or any other reason that are perfectly reasonable to no longer be available to play recreational tennis. Its simply not possible for people to predict with 100% accuracy what their availability will be like that far in advance for people where rec tennis isn't the #1 priority in their life.
     
    #59
  10. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    What about the possibility that the due date estimate was changed, or complications discovered, towards the end of the pregnancy - perhaps only a short time before Nationals?

    Or what if the player's wife had a late change of heart about letting him go and leave her, after initially thinking she would be ok and all? You know, hormones and all.

    Perhaps the player in question then told the team exactly what you are suggesting at the earliest time that he knew. But the team still felt this was short notice.

    I obviously don't know how it went down, but it's not black and white as your canned response would make it out to be.
     
    #60
  11. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    ^^^^^

    And I can't believe I am trying to rationally justify why a man whose wife is expecting would prioritize that over a tennis team!!! Or even why he might have more on his mind than contacting the captain at the earliest possible opportunity.
     
    #61
  12. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    If you have to just automatically assume that the baby was born prematurely and that the mother has diabetes then sure.

    Too bad none of those are true.

    The guy, contrary to what you guys want to believe, really did commit to something he knew he couldnt honor and waited till he couldnt have waited any longer to cancel.

    I know you guys are so desperately trying to paint me as worst as possible person on the planet because of some of the irrevocable things you have said in this thread. You guys are now just trying to conjure up any situation you possibly can just to save your own sanity.

    Do you honestly think that someone would be upset over a premature birth, unplanned pregnancy, or a teammates wife becoming suddenly ill who then has to cancel going to nationals?

    Please. So desperately desperate to be right.
     
    #62
  13. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Knowing this, I would have erred on the side of caution (and courtesy) and informed my team of possible confilict as soon as I was able.

    If they decided it wasn't worth the risk and I should drop off the team, that would be fine.

    If they all decided to "risk it" and allow me to stay on the team (and it turned out I couldn't make it to nationals), then everyone would have been involved in the decision knowing the possible risks.

    This has actually been a very interesting conversation. I like to see how other people make decisions.
     
    #63
  14. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I just can't see a downside to informing my tennis team (or anyone else I made commitement to) in advance of possible conflicts and letting them be part of the decison that they have a stake in.

    As I said, it is interesting to have people explain their reasoning for decisions.
     
    #64
  15. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Please tell me how you will simply forfeit #2 singles at nationals.

    What a clown.

    I guess you can say you've went to nationals at 2.5 or 5.0 to save yourself embarrassment, or claim the team should have blatantly lied about the number of people on the team.
     
    #65
  16. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    r2473... you act like a team is forced to play with just 8 players all season and if someone backs out then the team is totally screwed. I guess for me I simply can't imagine a captain dropping a player if he said "Hey- I know I am good though city finals, state playoffs, sectional playoffs, but I'm just not sure what is going to be going on past 6 months out" that the captain would have done anything differently. No matter what a person says I think a captain has to act as though people will become unavailable due to things outside their control when it is that far out even if they have every intention of being available.

    People are acting like the first people to be told about a pregnancy are the new grandparents and the tennis captain. I just don't get it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
    #66
  17. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    Jeez people, this is just recreational tennis, I'm not signing my life away months in advance. All I can say is that I would likely be available for Districts/Sectionals/Nationals. But I'm not going to guarantee my availability more than a week or two out. In fact, we have Mixed doubles playoffs coming up, and we have a decent chance of going to Districts. If we make it there, I may just decide that I have better things to do than to drive two hours to go peg women with overheads. Or something may come up, I don't know what I am doing that weekend yet. And it may not be any of my tennis teammates' business what I am doing outside of the court. Don't you people have lives outside of tennis? I didn't know that when I signed up for a team, that I was blood-committed to weekend trips away from work, family, and friends months in advance.
     
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  18. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    ^^ I'm just dealing with the facts as presented Spot.

    I don't really know much about how tennis league teams work. I guess I'd expect things like vacation, etc, to be discussed so the captain / team could plan around things.

    But you make a good point. It seems unreasonable to assume that "life will never get in the way". I think any reasonable captain would have a plan in place just in case one of his players got in a car accident or something.

    All the same, it just seems to me that (common?) courtesy would suggest that this guy should bring up possible conflicts to his team that he knows about. Especially a team that apparantly is driven to go to nationals and set that as a goal very early on.
     
    #68
  19. jht32

    jht32 Rookie

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    I completely agree with NTRPolice (who is serious) and r2473 (who is sarcastic). I had a guy with cancer who did not inform our team of possible complications when he joined. When we got to the 2.0 team league playoffs, the genius decides to go off and gets chemo (instead of just holding out for a few more weeks). He then complains that he is too tired to played for us that day. I mean, I would understand if he got cancer during the season, but prior to the start of the season? Jeez.
     
    #69
  20. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Is this really how tennis leagues work?

    No wonder the OP is tearing her hair out. Certainly makes it hard to plan.

    I was on a tennis league team once and this was pretty much the attitude of the players. We showed up to one match with 3 players because everyone else decided they had something better to do (and decided it wasn't really worth letting anyone else know). The other team was PISSED!!!! I was embarrassed beyond belief.

    Needless to say, I don't play league tennis.
     
    #70
  21. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Apparently if you get arrested your first phone call should be your usta captain. Not your lawyer. :)
     
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  22. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Can't the docs put some irradiated salt in the guys Gatorade? So he can still play?
     
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  23. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I'd say one thing that is obviously true is that you don't have kids. You haven't gone to multiple doctor appointments, had extensive conversations with a life partner, experienced life in the same room as a woman pregnant with your unborn child, etc, etc. you don't just get to say "I'm sorry this pregnancy thing is a bit@h for you, but I've got that rec league trip next week so take care"

    If you were a father, you'd get why many of us feel it is odd for you to choose this as your example of "lack of commitment".
     
    #73
  24. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    No, I'm completely serious.

    This is something I'd like to know. That way I know this guy has a high probablility of not making it to any given match and I can plan for it.

    I still don't understand why you'd keep all these potential conflicts a secret. If you have personal issues that you don't want to be specific on, simply inform your team in an indirect fashion of possible conflicts.

    I guess I'm a planner, so I see things differently.

    This conversation is almost like the one had between the half that are serious about time commitments and the other half that are "soft" on time commitments. The one side can't stand the other because it makes it impossible to plan when you don't know when someone else might show up. The other side thinks the planner is being too anal and should just chill out.

    Just different attitudes and perspectives.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
    #74
  25. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    If I am put in a lineup and I am available, within two weeks of a match, and I confirm, then I will show up, barring an emergency of some sort. If an emergency happens, then I will do my best to replace myself. But I am not guaranteeing my availability more than two weeks in advance. I would think most players share this thinking. It would be foolish to count on only the minimum number of players at a championship event that you have to travel to months in advance.
     
    #75
  26. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Na, I'm not assuming anything, I'm making the point that I don't know. And neither do you, unless the guy in question is a personal friend of yours and confides with you on everything. We just don't know what exactly was going on in his life and what the timing of it all was. So without knowing, you are being very harsh on him.

    What?!? You mean your team didn't make you take a polygraph and put a lien on your house? Sheesh, I guess your captain just isn't serious enough about his/her team.
     
    #76
  27. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I'm going to say this once and once only for those who do not know about the difference between nationals and regular season play. During regular season you can just forfeit lines and still win. At nationals, you cannot play with less than 8. If you for some reason decide to show up with less than 8 they will tell you to go home.

    You cannot play with less than 8 people if you are 3.0-4.5 adult players. They will not schedule you. You cannot just simply "forfeit" one line and play.

    The only teams allowed to show up with less than 8 people are 2.5 and 5.0 teams, or "doubles" teams.
     
    #77
  28. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I did not know that. What happens if you show up with exactly 8 and then one of the 8 gets violently ill before play starts?
     
    #78
  29. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    So knowing this, why not inform your team. Just so they know.

    I just can't see where less communication is better than more communication.
     
    #79
  30. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Because tour teammates are not your family. They matter very little in the scheme of things. It probably didn't occur to the guy to tell them early. He had other things in his mind. Rec tennis championships means nothing compared to my life and family priorities. If I forgot to inform my captain I would not be the bit sorry. Nor would my captain be the least bit upset.
     
    #80
  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What is your point? I don't follow.
     
    #81
  32. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    It's clear there are differing opinions on responsibility issues on a tennis team.

    This is probably something most captains understand after some experience and they learn to plan around it, just as many of you are suggesting.

    All the same, I still can't see why people are so adament that they won't / refuse / no way I'm gonna do it, inform their captain and team of potential conflicts as soon as they are able. But again, it seems most captains fully understand that this is the case and build that into their plan.

    As I said, I have nothing to do with league tennis so I don't understand the politics. It seems as if individual privacy and flexibility is valued by team members and captains are expected to understand and plan for this.

    Interesting. It shed a lot of insight into Cindy's and other captains posts I read from time to time in this section.
     
    #82
  33. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    It's clear I don't understand how league tennis works.

    I should have stayed out of the thread.
     
    #83
  34. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Hey- just FYI with Nationals 7 months from now I need to let you know about a few things that might conflct.

    I may get a new job
    I may get injured
    I may get sick
    I may be dead
    I may have a work conflict
    I may get promoted and my hours will change
    I may have a death in the family and will have to go to the funeral

    It takes a truly incompetent captain to not be able to accommodate someone being out for such a good reason. Its not like the person is cancelling because they want to watch a particular college football game on their TV at home. We are talking about something months and months away. And particularly considering there is no guarantee of even making nationals I just can't fathom how anyone could be upset about it.
     
    #84
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Lindsay Davenport committed to WTT one season and then withdrew when she found out she was having their 3rd child. I remember posters making snide comments about this at that time.
     
    #85
  36. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Interesting

    ......
     
    #86
  37. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Ok, try this one...

    (February 2011)
    Man: "honey, the due date is November and nationals are October. Can I tell the group I can play or not?"
    Wife: "sure, baby. You love your tennis. Have a great time"

    (Late September 2011)
    Wife, now 7 mos pregnant: "did you tell your boss about the appointment on the 10th"
    Man: "honey, I'm off that day because that's the day we are flying to nationals"
    Wife: "are you freaking kidding me? You were at the last appointment. You said the 10th sounds fine for the next ultrasound."
    Man: "I just got the email from the captain that the flights are on the 10th. We have to play at 8am on the 11th. I thought we were playing later and would fly out on the 11th. Is it possible to change the appointment?"
    Wife: "no you dip$hit! It's not alright. You'll be at that appointment. I need you there. The doctor wants you there. And your child needs you there."
    Man: "ok, the guys are going to be pissed. I told them almost a year ago I was going to be available"
    Wife: "do you have a small di@k or something. Grow a pair and tell them that your family needs you more than your god da^n tennis team. You guys suck anyways"

    Score: Wife-1, Team-0
     
    #87
  38. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Anyway, I get it.

    Captains need to plan.
     
    #88
  39. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Imagine getting to Nat'ls and one of your singles players never shows? It happened.
     
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  40. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    You win.

    I'd probably let my captain know that things might be "touch-and-go" this year (perhaps especially around nationals) myself.

    Again, just different perspectives.
     
    #90
  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Who are you touching this year?
     
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  42. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Hey how do you know my wife? That sounds just like her.
     
    #92
  43. ChipNCharge

    ChipNCharge Professional

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    So captains should go ahead and call off matches due to possible rain.......even though the courts are dry at the time?
     
    #93
  44. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    Wow.

    I think anyone who has ever had a meaningful relationship with another human being would sympathize with the father on this one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
    #94
  45. Taxvictim

    Taxvictim Semi-Pro

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    That wasn't the case; it was raining all day.

    But... YES, they should call off a match in advance when every forecaster is saying 90% chance of rain starting a few hours before the match, and the weather radar shows a monstrous green patch headed our way. My current captain did exactly that a few weeks ago, and it was the right call. Having six hours advance notice that you don't have to play is a big deal. Opportunities are created and there's adventures to be found, just so long as you don't get stuck sitting around waiting for reluctant captains to make the weather call.
     
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  46. Tennis Truth

    Tennis Truth Rookie

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    At the beginning of the season, it is pretty speculative that any particular team even gets to Nationals, so I'm not sure how much I would hold someone to that kind of comittment, before the season even started. What, did the captain list out the dates and location of Nationals, and ask for a firm commitment? That would be weird.

    I guess if my team couldn't get enough guys to travel to Nationals, I would chalk it up to "bad luck" that not enough of the team was able to go.

    I do not think I would place 100% of the blame on the one guy whose excuse was that his wife was delivering a baby and couldn't go.

    Jake: So why didn't your team go to Nationals? You had like 16 guys on the roster. Should your team have recruited more players?

    Ron: Naw, it was totally one dude's fault. This A-hole decided to have a baby instead of going to Nationals. I'm never talking to him again. He ruined it for the whole team.
     
    #96
  47. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    I agree with this. I live in a metro where drive times to matches often exceed half an hour one way, and to drive into imminent rain for a 10% chance of getting a match in would just be nonsensical.

    Ironically, it seems the parents of junior players are the most adamantly opposed to rescheduling matches based on the threat of rain... presumably because their kids' lives are so tightly scheduled as is...
     
    #97
  48. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    Well put.

    Expecting to go to nationals with a roster stuck at the bare minimum possible size for the entire season is probably the dumbest tennis-related thing I've ever heard. Life just isn't that predictable.
     
    #98
  49. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    In our league we simply aren't allowed to cancel tennis unless it is raining. Lets say the 90% chance of rain is accurate. You think that it should be my job as captain to break the rules and cancel the match even though there is a 10% chance that I will get yelled at by our coordinator and take the chance of losing every line as a default and/or getting suspended for the season? We play at a big tennis center so if we are the only team that didn't bother to show up since the rain missed it would be obvious.

    I get it that its inconvenient for you that I don't have a magic wand to wave and make the weather cooperate so you can make other plans with your day. Its a different matter when it is currently raining and the best case scenario is getting there and having to squeegee while hoping it doesn't start to rain again. But *****ing because the captain won't cancel it even though there wasn't a single drop of rain yet?

    I take it that you have never been captain before?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
    #99
  50. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    And I disagree.

    The coach is certainly at fault for not having more people on the roster.

    But I can't excuse the player for remaining silent about a very real potential conflict he knew about for months.

    Reading some of the posts over again, I think much of this stems from the way NTRPolice worded the original post on this. I think if he had worded it differently, the reactions would have been different as well. Really shows the power of rhetoric. Also shows how people make up their mind 100% and hunker down in their "camp".

    I'm thinking if instead of "tennis team" we substituted "my workplace" and instead of "nationals" we substituted "major meeting with clients", we would not be as sympathetic if this guy springs on his boss in the 11th hour that he won't be able to play his key role at the meeting because his wife is pregnant......oh and sorry I didn't tell you earlier, but I'm sure you have already planned for this contingency.

    Yes, work and tennis team are different. But in both cases, the ability to help the boss/captain plan is the same. The only difference is the consequences. As you obviously can't handle getting fired from your job, you will sure as hell tell your boss about this. But with the tennis team, you are free to take a different attitude as the consequences are less severe.

    Well, I think we are all firmly in our camps now anyway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012

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