Whatever Happened To Common Courtesy?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    In Cindy's case, the prospect proposed another player. At no point was it presented as a take it or leave it.

    Just as many players will be pissed at you for calling a match for rain too early then to call it late. And nobody's happy when the matches are interrupted by rain and everyone has to find time to get all the same players back out there.

    Captains often sacrifice themselves at 1 singles or 1 doubles to give the team a better chance to win. You don't often run into players volunteering to be sacrificed.

    Have you captained a team? Sure doesn't sound like it.

    Regarding Cindy's original post - the vast majority of people don't have the stones to have an upfront conversation, or to really understand where they are in a roster's pecking order. They'd rather hide behind lame excuses or unanswered emails. That's fine - there's always someone else who wants to play, and if some other captain wants to take on that headache, more power to them.
     
  2. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Best comment in the thread. I guess I'm voting w/ the OP that in my small experience, I am seeing this change both inter and intragenerationally (which amplifies it and makes it pretty obvious, IMO).

    If you see no change the overall Rudeness Factor (TM) in the area of communication, as we are speaking of, I have to respect that and await a bigger sample size.
     
  3. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I can't disagree with any if this.

    Captain should have planned better.

    Player should have used better logic regarding availability.

    NTRPolice chose poor words to describe the situation.

    We are all pretty much dug in on our views.

    Side note: I thoroughly enjoyed writing the script of the man and wife. I've read back over it and I keep giggling about what else the wife could've said. I may try to write a full on script for a TV pilot or something. I'm picturing Ed Helms as the husband and Amy Poehler as the wife.
     
  4. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I think these types of judgements are tricky because of our emotional attachment to the "real present".

    I also think the past gets overly romanticized.

    But I think you are probably right.
     
  5. Tennis Truth

    Tennis Truth Rookie

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    You disagree yet your post is respectful. Kudos. That is common courtesy.

    Since we really don't know the exact facts and timing, it is possible to make the "father" out to be either largely innocent and the victim of an overzealous captain, or more culpable for not following through on a commitment.

    However, it seems hard for me to feel it is justified for the "father" to get 100% of the blame, and to be punished with the silent treatement, even years later. Who is more lacking of "common courtesy?" The Father, or the Captain?
     
  6. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry, the failure is entirely on the captain.

    If you arrange your line-ups so that you only have 8 people qualified for nationals, you have committed malpractice. In this case, a pregnancy got in the way. It could easily have been a job problem. Or an injury. Or a falling out. Or a DQ, perhaps. Ya keep an 8-person roster and ya takes your chances.

    Anyone who thinks you can plan much of anything with a pregnancy has never been a parent. Even the due date they give you can be off a little or a lot. Had the pregnant lady had the baby a bit earlier, all would have worked out. It was bad luck that the fellow couldn't go to Nationals with the team, but the captain rolled the dice and lost.

    You know, I had a player pull a much worse stunt on me. We were trying to make a playoff run, so I gave everyone the dates up front and got their commitment that they would hold the date open. As Districts approached, one of my strongest players wrote to say that she was going on a family vacation and so could not play. Fortunately, I learned this early enough in the season to find a replacement and put her in the line-up twice so she'd be eligible.

    Imagine my shock when the player who said she was taking the vacation turned up playing for one of her other teams at Districts. Wow. She lied *directly* to my face. All she had to say was, "I have to make an election on what team to play for, and I'm going with this other team. Sorry." It happens. Instead, she lied.

    What's wrong with folks?

    In almost every case, we are talking about people who are new to the team. My regulars seem to have higher moral standards.
     
  7. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Good point. Working with the facts we have, both could have done better. Each blames the other and refuses to accept any of the responsibility.
     
  8. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    OK. I just thought the guy could have given his captain a heads up.

    As I said, I've never been a captain or been on a league team, so I don't know what is "expected" or "acceptable".

    Seems to me that captains are "expected" to plan for these types of contingencies and there is no such expectation on the roster player.

    Guess I learned something new today.
     
  9. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    I guess I will derail this thread even more, but I'm sensing a bit of a difference on how teams are run in my area as opposed to others. Most teams by me have several players qualified for playoffs and missing one or two people is not a big deal. In fact, even in playoff matches, not having one of your top players is very common. In fact, my mixed team that is going to playoffs that I mentioned above? We had 10 regular season matches, 3 lines each, and we have 20 players qualified for playoffs, plus 3 or 4 others that we couldn't qualify for a variety of reasons. If someone had to miss a playoff match, it would not be a team-breaker. From what it sounds like to me, other areas' teams have the minimum amount of players, and every single player plays every match. Is that the case?
     
  10. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This is a non-issue.

    If the player is so friggin' sure that the match will not happen due to rain, the player should just stay home.

    If the player is wrong and the match happens, the player will have a lot of explaining to do (and in our league will owe $68 in court fees for causing a default).

    So. Make your choice and live with the consequences.
     
  11. slowfox

    slowfox Professional

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    Whoa, this thread really picked up steam fast.. haha.
     
  12. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    My teammates are much nicer than that captain who won't speak to the New Dad.

    When we went to nationals in 2011, we had 9 players make the trip (six players needed for each match). The day we arrived, one player learned her father had died so she needed to go back home right away. Changing her ticket at the last second cost something ridiculous, like $400, plus solo transport from Indian Wells to whatever airport we were using.

    We offered our condolences and split the cost of the ticket change/transport to support her.

    And we still speak to her.
     
  13. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Well I can see why you let her off the hook since her father is really the one to blame in this scenario, up and dying like that; how rude.
     
  14. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Like with some of the other "awesome" situations in this thread, New Dad's "cancellation" could have been made well in advance or he could have not committed at all and there would have been ZERO problems.

    No one suddenly died.
    The child was not born premature.
    The wife doesnt have cancer or diabetes.
    An abortion is just ridiculous and immature.

    (those are hypothetical situations made up by the various logicians in this thread)

    Let's just forget about the baby for a moment. We're going to sub out baby for "family vacation" and put up a similar and more accurate representation of what happened.

    Let's say New Dad plans a vacation at the start of the year and during the preseason meetings he commits to going to nationals. No one but him knows about this family vacation and we assume that people who commit are going to follow through with their obligation. We have the bare minimum 8 players needed to attend. They proceed. (Of course, experts agree that we should have simply just gotten 10 more people to commit which is apparently easy. We have to be sure to account for sudden acts of god and would be foolish to accept peoples words especially concerning situations within their control.)

    After adult league is mostly done and its time to start settling travel details, lodging, vehicle ect. New Dad all of a sudden says that he cant go and that he had a family vacation planned.

    Now you have 7 people reading an email all wondering what to do because nationals is looking like its a no-go.




    The varying opinions in this thread give it its reason for existing.

    Suffice to say, you cannot count on people to keep their word these days even for circumstances well within their control. People commit to things and bail on things as if it only affects them. For some people, nationals is a once in a lifetime thing. Committing to it knowing that you cant possibly go ruins that chances for some people. Waiting till the last possible second before saying anything isnt exactly the mark of an adult either.

    I know you all are being high and mighty about "lol low level nationals" but for some people nationals is all they have to look forward to. Some of these people are getting older and that was probably their last chance since they were getting bumped. For some people going to nationals in their 50's is like having a kid.

    Guy has an emergency like an unplanned pregnancy, death in the family, wife with cancer? Fine. No one would be upset over that.

    Foolishly committing to nationals knowing you cant go is the topic at hand. And then, to make it worse, wait till the last second so that there isnt even a remedy for the problem. Sure, we could have just did like the internet said and had 15 people all put in deposits a year in advance, involve notaries, and seek the death penalty for any breach of contract. Or, you know, we could just expect someone to keep their word with is apparently totally out of the question.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  15. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    I just did a quick count. In NorCal, there were 237 Men's 4.0 teams. It's basically a waste of time and energy to plan for Nationals in March. If you make it, great, then make plans. It should be thought of as a bonus if you choose to accept it or not, not an obligation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  16. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    [​IMG]
     
  17. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Those that fail to plan for Nat'ls will not have enough players to travel. And will not go. Happened this year. Last year
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Why did you pay for her ticket? If she is traveling across the country to play tennis, she wouldn't fall into the destitute category.
     
  19. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    All I can say is lol at rec nationals being a one in a lifetime thing.... and it's like having a kid. Ha ha!
     
  20. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Uncommon Courtesy?
     
  21. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    It's like this guy thinks that the more key strokes he uses, the better he sounds.

    If a dude is 50 and actually compares going to nationals with having a child, he should be kicked in the nuts.
     
  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I remember now. Cindy and her team had gotten sponsors to pay for their trip. (Who "sponsors" recreational players? Why?) So they were rolling in money and didn't feel the pinch of helping this person.
     
  23. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Sponsors? I thought a bikini car wash paid for the trip?
     
  24. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Because it is a kind thing to do for a friend who has experienced a personal tragedy.
     
  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Have you seen the pictures of that trip? All the women except Cindy looked, shall we say, mature. Cindy looked like their junior tennis-playing granddaughter. So if there was a bikini car wash, she was the only one doing it.
     
  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Dude everyone's parents pass away eventually. Are you going to be funding everyone when it happens?

    Or maybe I am just a little mean.
     
  27. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    If he has a child, he has been kicked in the noids, over and over again. And that was the 1st year.
     
  28. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Hope you play singles. May bury partners
     
  29. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    I don't really get the once-in-a-lifetime thing. If you do a cost-benefit analysis of actually going to Nationals, I'm not sure the benefits outweigh the costs, unless you are just rolling in the dough and have no obligations. I'm not particularly motivated to travel to play in Districts, Sectionals, or Nationals if I were to make it. How would it look to your others if you were, say, traveling across the country to play in the World of Warcraft Nationals? Or, more accurately, the 4.0 World of Warcraft Nationals, for players between the levels of 30 and 40. Same thing, really. Would you bring your family? Explain to them why you will be gone that weekend? Would you do that instead of taking your kids somewhere? Would you miss work for that?

    Last year, I was on a very good Combo team, but we suffered an unexpected loss in the playoffs. If we would have won, we would have made it to Districts, in Fresno, CA (about 3 hours away), in February. If we would have made it, I am unsure if I would have went, I was leaning toward not going. Fresno in February (or any month) just doesn't appeal to me.
     
  30. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    As others have said, we felt it was a kind thing to do. Golden Rule and all.

    For those who don't know, our team of 9 players solicited donations and did fundraising to fund our trip to nationals. For some, the expense of such a trip is not a hardship. For others, it is most definitely a hardship.

    What we did was all work to raise money, pool the money, and divide it equally. Friends kicked in small sums ($10 from a teammate, $20 from another teammate, $50 from parents). We sold coffee and donuts at Combo Districts (my idea!), auctioned off a donated racket, that sort of thing. To my surprise, there was a considerable sense of pride that a DC team was going to Nationals, and people in the community genuinely wanted to see us do well and opened their wallets.

    The money went to pay for two rental houses and two rental vans, and we raised enough to defray almost all of that cost.

    Funny thing. I just received a long email from a woman I have met twice. Her team is going to 6.0 mixed nationals, and they are having various fundraisers. I cannot be bothered to participate in that stuff, but I will be sending a check. Gotta pay it forward . . . .
     
  31. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Because on the internet its as simple as:

    -"Going to nationals is easy. Just go again next year obviously."
    -"Just get 20 people to commit so if half of them die, you're still good to go."
    -"Just forfeit a line and play one line short." (you cant do that just to be clear)
    -"Dont blame the unrealistic commitment of a person, blame the people expecting the commitment to be fulfilled."
    -"We all have the most amazing social lives, wives, kids, 6 figure paying salaries. Who cares about nationals?"
    -"In real life im like a 9.0, lol silly casual low level rec players."

    I love all these "solutions" to the problem.

    Still, one thing remains:

    All New Dad had to do was not make the irresponsible commitment which he knew way ahead of time he couldnt possibly honor.

    And to think something like that is thrown out the door because someone committed to something they knew they couldnt honor. Some of these people are "strong 3.0's" but dont have much chance of going any higher. Due to the play they may be bumped in which case they'll have to wait till they can come down. Considering that their next chance could be 5 years away they could be late 50's or even 60 by then. They're not going to be suddenly getting any better.

    Also, in that 5 year period, who knows if another legit nationals team will form?

    Of course, according to this forum, "this is just rec tennis".

    FWIW I declined to play for the 3.0 nationals team this year because I wasnt going to play 3.0 adult. So in case anyone is wondering if this affected me in any way, it hasnt. I have many more years to try for nationals at 3.5 and 4.0. Some people will not. They may have 1 or 2 chances to go to 3.0 nationals in their lives and I dont see why this is so hard to see.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  32. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I guess I can see what you're saying. Still, you probably would be swept up in everyone else's excitement and would perhaps have changed your mind.

    I have to say, I was surprised at how much fun it was. I can understand that others may have personal circumstances that mean the fun would be dampened by the hardship required.

    Really, though. I cannot think of too many things that were more fun than five days in a beautiful city, hanging out with my pals away from everyday stresses, being on the same courts the pros use, playing a sport I love, and imagining in the back of my mind that I am competing at the BNP Paribas open. It truly was once-in-a-lifetime, in that I think the chances I will ever be on a team that goes to Nationals is zilch. I'm glad to have been a part of that little adventure.
     
  33. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Honestly?

    I don't think you know what you're talking about.

    You admit you weren't there, so I doubt you have heard New Dad's side of the story and don't know what led him to handle things the way he did. For all you know, the couple may have had concerns about the baby's health and feared a termination decision would need to be made. People in that situation tend to keep the pregnancy quiet, for obvious reasons. Or perhaps there was a change in circumstances. Or perhaps the family credit cards are maxed out and he made the responsible choice not to increase the family debt on a frivolous trip when there was a baby on the way.

    Next time that captain starts shooting his mouth off, perhaps you can suggest that he *man up,* take responsibility for not having a large enough roster to go to Nationals, and stop acting like a Mean Girl.
     
  34. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    That was the joke
     
  35. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    So is the idea of me washing cars in a bikini.
     
  36. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    As someone else said in this thread about 10 times he doesnt have to say "why". If he had just said "You know, Captain, I cant say why, but I wont be able to go." the moment he knows that would have cut down on about half of the "problem".

    I "manned up" enough to say sorry when I got you confused with another strikingly similar Cindy. All he had to do was "man up" and say "he wont be able to go" without having to share every little detail of his life. That's what mature adults do. They say thank you. They say sorry. They take responsibility.

    Committing well before hand and not saying a thing until the absolute last moment possible is not the way a mature adult handles their prior commitments.

    Yes, the captain could have played baby sitter more. Yes, the captain could have just gotten more people to go or paid for someone elses ticket who couldnt afford it. But like I said, those solutions are easy to come up with over the internet.

    It was hard enough to find 8 "will go's" as it is. They should still have just simply gotten 8 more out of thin air. They just obviously wanted to get the minimum 8 to risk it all to one (not even) catastrophic event.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  37. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Just so you know . . .

    It is really weird internet etiquette to edit your earlier post to include a post that came later, then respond to that later post. Makes the thread kind of confusing . . .
     
  38. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    You're not mean. You're just an arse.
     
  39. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    Competent personnel managers plan for contingencies, particularly when something of value is involved.

    "The internet" did not just invent that principle of personnel management in this thread.
     
  40. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    My three pregnancies were healthy. I was lucky in this regard.

    I can guess that if I were hit with some bad news or some complications, I would be a nervous wreck. Communicating with my captain about his pie-in-the-sky run to nationals months later would be very low on my list of priorities.

    Also, you are assuming that there was a crystal clear deal that anyone on the team would promise they would make the trip to Nationals, and this fellow guaranteed he would be there.

    As a captain, I will bet this did not happen. What you do pre-season if you have a playoff-bound team is you tell people you hope to go all the way and you give them the various playoff dates as they are announced. You ask if anyone knows for sure that they cannot be there (e.g. diplomats whose posting is ending, players who know they will be transferred, etc.). If you squeeze them for an iron-clad commitment, most people will tell you they expect they can but cannot guarantee absent a crystal ball.

    Honestly, I am shocked that you would decide to blame this one guy when apparently there were others on the team who chose not to attend for whatever reason.

    No, those solutions aren't easy to come up with on the internet. They are just easy to come up with.

    There was someone who couldn't afford to go?

    Meh. I guess the other seven weren't that motivated either.
     
  41. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I see now. It's like Murray winning his first grand slam. Just like it. Very important.
     
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Less than that is not legal
     
  43. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    *sob*

    You had to bring her up, didn't ya? Miss her a lot!!!!
     
  44. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    I can see that. Especially if it is at Indian Wells. But it would not be a slam-dunk decision for me.
     
  45. Red Sunset

    Red Sunset Rookie

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    Do you have bad body odour?
     
  46. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    The captain is ex-military. Knowing him a great deal and based on the level of our communication between he and I, I can assure you, he will ask for commitments well ahead of time. He will also say "If you're not sure, dont say yes." This guy even makes his schedules for "first available subs" and if you're on the "sub list" you're expected to confirm that you can sub if something happens. You not only have to confirm for "first string" you also have to confirm if you're "second string" also.

    He will basically do this:

    Before forming a team he will gather people via emails of potential team mates. He will look for 8 confirms and will not proceed with the team until he gets it. Sure, 12 confirms would be great, but not everyone is committed to going to nationals.

    He obviously lists the dates and locations of playoffs.

    Weddings are planned just as much in advance. I dont see very many people flaking on a wedding, especially if you're the one getting married or are on the wedding party.

    A crystal ball? C'mon.

    If you need a "crystal ball" to know that committing to nationals when your wife is pregnant and giving birth about that time you have to be the most daft person ever.

    I dont know everyone on the team but some people cannot just take off from work like that. Some people are students and have classes or are away during that time. Some people are poor.

    The other people did not commit to going and did not expect to have to go and have last min. pressure dumped on them.

    Like I said, its easy to just swipe a credit card and make a plane ticket appear or magically get someones vacation leave approved last min.

    I can come up with hypothetical solutions too.

    I still think that expecting a person to keep a commitment they make and not expecting people to make commitments they know they cant keep is the easiest solution.
     
  47. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    I think that the easiest solution is to have a competent captain who understands that any "commitment" to something 7 or more months away that may or may not happen has to be considered 80% at best and to plan accordingly since there are a million different things that can happen between now and then. I can't even fathom how someone could be upset about this.

    It happens all the times with planners who have tennis as their #1 priority. It frustrates them to no end that other people don't prioritize tennis as much as they do but in reality these people simply need to get a bit more perspective. Not being on speaking terms with someone who decided not to play rec tennis because they were HAVING A BABY is absolutely absurd. He is simply pissed because he screwed up as team captain and its easier to blame this guy than to look in the mirror.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  48. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Has anyone ever been on a team where the initial team email from the captain listed the dates of nationals? I just can't picture that under any circumstances. I don't even think its reasonable to be pissed about someone not being available for city finals which is just 2.5 months out. I simply can't wrap my mind around someone being pissed off at someone that they were no longer available to something that they "committed" to over 7 months before.
     
  49. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    My recollection was that the dates for Nationals were not set when I formed my team. It was even later that I had dates for flight playoffs, Districts and Sectionals. There were several people who became unavailable for Districts shortly before (one for a late-breaking family vacation, one because she wished to take her annual trip back to Slovenia, one due to injury, one due to what I think was just nerves). I had a roster of 20, so we survived.

    Yes, people can have all sorts of reasons for not going. That NTRPolice equates a student who doesn't want to miss classes with a guy who is becoming a father shows where he is in life's trajectory of experience and maturity.

    Maybe this captain is "military," but that is not the same thing as being "competent." He clearly did not get his troops lined up. He totally botched it. He should wear it and stop being so bloody small about it.
     
  50. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    The dates for and location are set in stone way ahead of time, before the league regular season even starts. The day of nationals is available at least 6 months before it takes place. You may have not noticed it, but that information is there.

    I know you're trying to make me look small by saying im equating a student going to class to New Dad having a baby. You have just not considered the views of the people whom these circumstances belong to. That shows tremendous lack of wisdom from someone as old as you are. You claim how easy it is to "just go" or to "find more players", and again I tell you that its just not that easy.

    A college student who is away for school who is working to support themselves cannot simply attend nationals because their school is just as big of a deal to them at that point in their life similar to a person who is married with a career who is having a baby.

    When you make little comments like that it shows a tremendous lack of wisdom.

    To some people, going to school is the most important thing in their life at that time. Some people, "rec tennis" is all they have. Some people just cant afford to drop $100's of dollars to go on a whim, or take extended periods of leave early in their careers.

    You obviously make your teams without intending to go to playoffs because you dont even know how much in advance that information is available. From your last post, it just sounds like "if you go, you go. if you dont go, you dont go."

    Not everyone is that casual about their tennis. Some people plan much more in advance. Some people expect those plans to be carried through if they are confirmed.

    You still keep avoiding the fact that New Dad committed to going but couldnt realistically honor the "casual commitment" at the expense of others. Then, he waits till the last possible min. to say anything, by which time no realistic solution is possible.
     

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